1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?

[Southern]

Padre,
I took your post as a positive agreement. Correct me if I am wrong. I took it to mean that we both preach the Gospel to every creature because we do not know who the elect are. We just differ on "why" they come.

P.S. Please do pray for me during my finals!!!

Thanks and May God bless you Padre!

 

[rc]

Ray,
You keep on pulling those emotional heart strings brother... The poor, despterate, pleading, weak, begger God that can't has to cry and try to peruade men because He has no power over them because He is not a perfect mediator, but a mediator that fails... over and over again. The almighty sovereign will of man! How will Jesus ever get all of man kind to bow every knee and confess He is God at the end when He can't do it now?

Post Tenabrax Lux

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother James,

Your statement

God knows ALL. He loves Jacob and hates Esau. God does according to His Sovereign Will and for His good pleasure.

;

This is the standard mantra that you have been taught and is textbook Calvinism. The question remains is it the truth; is it the intent coming from the heart of God?

If you have time read Genesis 25:20 and forward and you will see there is no election of Jacob and reprobation for Esau coming from the words of the Lord. Our Lord was electing two unique nations and the elder brother would serve the younger, especially noted in verse twenty-three. Jacob’s lineage would produce the Son of Promise, even our Lord God. Esau would beg Isaac for regaining his status within the family but God through Isaac refused this tearful try on behalf of Esau.

In Hebrews 12:16 Esau, a careless son of Isaac, sold off his birthright. [vs. c] After this fatal mistake on the human side, it yet proved providentially planned by God. The next verse points out his repentance and tears over the loss of so weighty a matter as handing over his families legal, authority to Jacob. This was all the elective plan of Almighty God.

King David committed murder and repeated acts of adultery and was forgiven, and still God calls him ‘the man after My own heart.’ Esau was flawed as was nearly all the heroes of faith under the former covenant, but he turned out to be a man of grace because he returned to re-unite with his younger brother who betrayed him year prior. The deceiver/Jacob never tried to make things right between his brother and on various occasions proved himself and to us also, his own departure from God’s highest by committing sins.

Brother Ray

 

[Southern]

Ray,

God never gave to the Father more people than believed on His Son.

Could you please explain John 6:37 that says "All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me"? The giving results in our coming and not vice versa.

In Christ

 

[johnp.]

Look Ray, I don't know what you are pulling with this but it don't wash! Maybe our legs? Are you having us on or something?
You wrote.
The deceiver/Jacob never tried to make things right between his brother and on various occasions proved himself and to us also, his own departure from God’s highest by committing sins.
You wrote.
Esau was flawed as was nearly all the heroes of faith under the former covenant, but he turned out to be a man of grace because he returned to re-unite with his younger brother who betrayed him year prior.

Brilliant. You have turned our mantra into weeping. Do you think you can rewrite the scriptures and be taken seriously?

What is that but Esau I loved, but Jacob I hated?

King David committed murder and repeated acts of adultery and was forgiven, and still God calls him ‘the man after My own heart.’

That is because we are right. It is not dependant on what a man says or does but it is God that chooses.
Peter was just the same as Judas. They both betrayed Jesus. Neither asked for forgiveness. It was Jesus that went to Peter and cleansed him.

johnp.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Rc,

You keep on pulling those emotional heart strings brother... The poor, despterate, pleading, weak, begger God that can't has to cry and try to peruade men.

First, you have three mispelled words plus an unclear thought in your last sentence.

Secondly, I never wrote anything like you suggest above in your quote. I did say that God knocked at the heart’s door of the church, trying to reenter their Christian lives and experience, as noted in Revelation 3:20. This is also true in relation of God toward the sinner. [John 3:18]

The sinner’s judgment, the Great White Throne Judgment, will happen and He will preside over this unbelieving group of millions of people. [Revelation 20:11-15] Not one sinner will say, “Lord you forced me into destruction”; their lack of belief in Jesus will result in the Lord dropping His Divine gavel and then they will be escorted to the rim of Hell.

Jesus is the only Mediator and He is perfect. His love goes out to all sinners. [I John 2:2] He is impartial toward the lost, ' . . . not willing that any should perish. [II Peter 3:9] His sovereing will and design is to making the created being, the sinner, responsible to Himself. The Lord does not 'cherry pick' His elect, and He would never have selected me, because of many things. I look to His mercy when I stand before this sovereign Being of holiness.

By the way I make mistakes at times in punctuation.

 

[Ray Berrian]

When time is over for every lost human being, God's judgment and evaluation will take place in their lives. And for those who refused the Lord Jesus, will be forced to bow before Him. [Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; and Philippians 2:10-11]

Here is the sovereign Almighty God who will be absolutely fair in His judgment.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Jesus died and made a blood atonement for every sinner. [I John 2:2]

Those who savingly believe in Jesus are washed in His blood. Those who refuse Christ are not immersed in His precious blood.

Nothing is lost to God if sinners reject Him. The sinner takes the loss which leads to Hell. God does not lose any grace or blood, if you will, because of Christ rejecters.

God is not harmed or diminished because the sinner's atonement was avoided. This is what makes unbelief so terrible and unthinkable.

God is transcendent and remains the same no matter what human persons do for or against Him. 'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today and forever.' [Hebrews 13:8]

 

[rc]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
[QB] And for those who refused the Lord Jesus, will be forced to bow before Him. [Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; and Philippians 2:10-11]

HOw will God FORCE man Ray?

 

[padredurand]

Originally posted by rc:
HOw will God FORCE man Ray?

Philippians 2:9-11
For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say there is power in His name. Doesn't sound like

(t)he poor, despterate, pleading, weak, begger God that can't has to cry and try to peruade men because He has no power over them because He is not a perfect mediator, but a mediator that fails... over and over again.

Is that a general assumption made whenever someone disagrees with our dear Mr. Calvin or did you run out of a reasoned apology? I don't see where Ray made such an assertion; quite the opposite if you read his references (Phil 2:9-11 above, etc.). If Ray didn't infer a poor, desperate, pleading, weak, beggar God; where does this come from?

 

[johnp.]

Jesus died and made a blood atonement for every sinner. [I John 2:2]

No Ray, deal with Eli's sons!

1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "


johnp.

 

[padredurand]

1 Samuel 2:28-30
"Did I not choose them from all the tribes of Israel to be My priests, to go up to My altar, to burn incense, to carry an ephod before Me; and did I not give to the house of your father all the fire offerings of the sons of Israel? ‘Why do you kick at My sacrifice and at My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling, and honor your sons above Me, by making yourselves fat with the choicest of every offering of My people Israel?’ “Therefore the LORD God of Israel declares, ‘I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever’; but now the LORD declares, ‘Far be it from Me—for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me will be lightly esteemed."

Don't limit yourself to Eli's sons. "Why do you, Eli, kick at my sacrifice and offerings?" Why do you, Eli, honor your sons - who are sleeping with the women who serve at the doorway and getting fat off the best the people gave to ME - why do you honor them Eli? Why, Eli, does your household walk away from me when I declared they should walk before Me? Why, Eli, do you despise Me?

How could the elect become reprobate? How could they resist God's favor? How could they lose their salvation?

1 Samuel 3:12-14
“In that day I will carry out against Eli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end. “For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them. Therefore I have sworn to the house of Eli that the iniquity of Eli’s house shall not be atoned for by sacrifice or offering forever.”

1. The judgment is for Eli and his house. If we conclude that this judgment refers to all the reprobate (non-elect) than we must reject the notion that God's election is unconditional. God retracted His favor for cause - the sins of Eli's sons and Eli's failure to react. God established conditions - their faithfulness - to their continued favor.

2. How could those called of God resist Him? "I did indeed say that your house and the house of your father should walk before Me forever." Eli and his sons resisted God. If they did not, they would have continued to faithfully serve.

3. How could those called by God then be rejected by Him?

johnp, have a spot of tea and think about this. God's dealings with Eli and his house seem rather Arminian to me. Okay, Ray, your turn.

 

[padredurand]

Why did God hate Esau?

 

[johnp.]

How could the elect become reprobate?

That would be a contradiction for all of us.

1. The judgment is for Eli and his house. If we conclude that this judgment refers to all the reprobate (non-elect) than we must reject the notion that God's election is unconditional. God retracted His favor for cause - the sins of Eli's sons and Eli's failure to react. God established conditions - their faithfulness - to their continued favor.

That is not to the point. The point is that it has been said that Jesus atoned for all sin. This case proves that belief wrong does it not?

No sugar thanks.

I'll get back to you on the rest of this after your reply to the above.

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Why did God hate Esau?

Because.

johnp.

 

[padredurand]

That is not to the point. The point is that it has been said that Jesus atoned for all sin. This case proves that belief wrong does it not?

How could any human action diminish the Cross? Human action, as in this case, determines whether you go to the wedding feast or not, doesn't it? It has nothing to do whether there will be one.

How do we reconcile God's declaration that Eli and his house were called to walk before the Lord yet they were known as:

Now the sons of Eli were worthless men; they did not know the LORD and the custom of the priests with the people. 1 Samuel 2:12-13a

No sugar? Blah.

 

[padredurand]

Originally posted by johnp.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Why did God hate Esau?

Because.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]For cause or just because?

 

[johnp.]

How could any human action diminish the Cross?

They cannot.

That is not to the point. The point is that it has been said that Jesus atoned for all sin. This case proves that belief wrong does it not?

Yes or no?

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

padredurand.

just b.

johnp.

 

[johnp.]

padredurand.

I shall not bandy words with you over sugar. It is heresy to sweeten tea.

Why did God hate Esau?

He did though didn't He?

The answer resides in the will of God.

Eph 1:4-5 (Amended) ...In love 5 he predestined me to be adopted as his son through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will

Eph 1:6 (Amended) to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given me in the One he loves.

That grace He gave me saved me. Loved.

That grace He did not give Esau. Hated

Only, Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace

Only in Him have we the forgiveness of sins.
And He Eph 1:8 ...lavished [that] on us with all wisdom and understanding.

That's all I know. The why's are in His will.

johnp.