1 Timothy 2:1-6 Another all?

[Ray Berrian]

There are as many views and hues of understanding of Irresistible Grace as stars in our heavenly galaxy.

Pastor John Piper says, In Acts 7:51 Stephen says to the Jewish leaders, "You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit as your fathers did." And Paul speaks of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19). God gives many entreaties and promptings which are resisted. In fact the whole history of Israel in the Old Testament is one protracted story of resistance, as the parable of the wicked tenants shows (Matthew 21:33-43; cf. Romans 10:21). [/quote]
Here Piper sounds like an Arminian with our term, Resistible Grace.

The doctrine of irresistible grace means that God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when he wills. "He does according to his will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand!" (Daniel 4:35). "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases" (Psalm 115:3). When God undertakes to fulfill his sovereign purpose, no one can successfully resist him.

Here Piper sounds like a Calvinist. Which does he really want to believe. In the immediate above Scriptures the writers mean that God is sovereign in matters of nations and the ruling of His world. God nowhere here even hints about saving some and damning other poor souls.

This is what Paul taught in Romans 9:14-18, which caused his opponent to say, "Why then does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" To which Paul answers: "Who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me thus?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?" (Romans 9:20f).

Yes, God used Pharaoh and Esau the way He desired because they had hardened their own hearts toward God’s best for their lives. But, no where does the Apostle Paul speak of ‘cherry picking’ certain men and women for Hell while giving a free pass to the relative few so they can rise to His realm above. He is not a Divine Despot.

More specifically irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved. If our doctrine of total depravity is true, there can be no salvation without the reality of irresistible grace. If we are dead in our sins, totally unable to submit to God, then we will never believe in Christ unless God overcomes our rebellion.

Grace is offered by God to men and women as a free gift. [Ephesians 2:8] Faith is the human response to His proffered love toward sinners. The Holy Spirit, and I say and mean it respectfully, does not ‘hog-tie’ specific sinners and make them go to Heaven. Most of you should know by now, more especially during the Christmas Season that gifts must be received. Those who read or hear about Jesus forgiveness of sins toward the lost, and refuse Him, have shown that they are free moral agents in this matter. There will be no conscripts in Heaven.
Piper says, ‘If our doctrine of Total Depravity is true’ giving to us that he is not sure about the idea himself.
Yes, we are depraved but we are also created in the image of God, [John 1:9 & James 3:9] even before the rebirth made possible through the Holy Spirit. We are not so wicked that we cannot understand the Gospel truth when preached or by a Christian witness. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners of their need of Christ before they even repent and trust in the Lord.
Pastor needs study; and is a lame example of a person who can explain the Lord’s truth in the Word of God.

 

[rc]

Ray,
Watch yourself as you quote Piper. I'm a church member and leader in his church and what you said is absolutely not true and you are misrepresenting what he says. If you don't quote ALL that he says you shouldn't quote him at all. He requires that if you quote him, to forward the page from which you are referring to get him in context or not to use it.

 

[Wes Outwest]

According to Calvinists. Read this if you want to find out why.

For one to accept the premises Piper sets forth, one would have do deny that Grace is an "attribute of God" and not the whole essence of God. Grace in itself has no power to persuade, to transform, to save, etc. But Grace is an extension of who and what God is through His behavior toward man! Grace in itself contains no power, except that it sets the tone for all of God's other actions toward man. It provides the "environment" in which God extends and demonstrates his Love to us. It is an act of grace on God's part to be merciful to man. It is God's Grace that provides man the opportunity to "hear and believe" for while God is behaving in accordance with his grace, he is withholding his justice, and His wrath.

In the individual man, justice and grace cannot exist at the same time, one must be absent for the other to be effective. If God is meeting out his justice, His grace would dilute it. Therefore, while grace is manifested, justice is not carried out. There is nothing "irresistible" about grace.

 

[whatever]

Here Piper sounds like an Arminian with our term, Resistible Grace.

Here Piper sounds like a Calvinist.

Talk about missing the point. Let me try it again. This article is representative of Calvinist thought. If some of it sounds Arminian then so be it. Instead of reading it to find out what Calvinists really think, you hold it up against what you think Calvinists think and try to interpret it that way. I don't know you, and I don't know Piper, but I have to believe that he knows more about Calvinism than you do. Like I said to someone else, do with it what you will, but if you continue to assert that Calvinists believe that all of God's grace is irresistible then I will have to believe that you are intentionally being dishonest.

Much of God's grace is resistible. God's saving grace, that grace by which He regenerates and gives faith, is not resistible.

... no where does the Apostle Paul speak of ‘cherry picking’ certain men and women for Hell while giving a free pass to the relative few so they can rise to His realm above. He is not a Divine Despot.

Another strawman.

The Holy Spirit, and I say and mean it respectfully, does not ‘hog-tie’ specific sinners and make them go to Heaven.

Another strawman.

There will be no conscripts in Heaven.

Another strawman.

Piper says, ‘If our doctrine of Total Depravity is true’ giving to us that he is not sure about the idea himself.

Oh, come on. You know that's not what he means.

Pastor needs study; and is a lame example of a person who can explain the Lord’s truth in the Word of God.

Lame? Do insults help your case?

 

[Ray Berrian]

[My previous quote] ' . . . John 1:9 & James 3:9] even before the rebirth made possible through the Holy Spirit. We are not so wicked that we cannot understand the Gospel truth when preached or by a Christian witness. The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners of their need of Christ before they even repent and trust in the Lord. [/quote]

While beating the horse to death you must also include for your understanding the two above Scriptures. This must be blended with the idea of Total Depravity.

I said previously, Pastor needs study; and is a lame example of a person who can explain the Lord’s truth in the Word of God.

I am rather sure that the pastor knows, like the back of his hand, the Calvinistic view of theology. Notice, again what I said in the above paragraph.

Hopefully we should care less about promoting Arminianism or Calvinism. We should strive to rightly divide the Word of truth.

Do you agree?

 

[whatever]

. . . John 1:9 & James 3:9] even before the rebirth made possible through the Holy Spirit. We are not so wicked that we cannot understand the Gospel truth when preached or by a Christian witness.

Apparently you equate "in the image of God" with "able to understand the gospel". I don't think so.

The Holy Spirit convicts and convinces sinners of their need of Christ before they even repent and trust in the Lord.

Now you sound like a Calvinist. Why would the Spirit try to coerce a sinner to do something that the sinner wouldn't freely do on his own?

I said previously, Pastor needs study; and is a lame example of a person who can explain the Lord’s truth in the Word of God.

I am rather sure that the pastor knows, like the back of his hand, the Calvinistic view of theology. Notice, again what I said in the above paragraph.

I noticed. I'm still chuckling.

Hopefully we should care less about promoting Arminianism or Calvinism. We should strive to rightly divide the Word of truth.

Do you agree?

Absolutely. While doing so we also ought not deliberately misrepresent the beliefs of those with whom we strive, especially when we have been corrected multiple times.

Do you agree?

 

[rc]

First of all Ray you still haven't apologized for your misrepresentation of my Pastor. Second Piper used to be a staunch Arminian and has probably studied more in one year than you have your whole life, (He is the teaching Pastor, which means the ONLY thing he does, besides some manditory meetings, ALL HE DOES IS STUDY 10 - 12 hours a day to get ready for Sunday...) As for Arminianism and his understanding of it Read "The Justification of God" by Piper to get him in context.. not by a out of context "snipet" by someone who doesn't know him.

Wes,
If Ray just "chose" while others didn't ... why? Was he more humble?.. smarter? More pious? ...Your SIMPLE answer doesn't cut it. Think alittle deeper...

 

[rc]

Whatever....

Amen to you!

 

[johnp.]

Hopefully we should care less about promoting Arminianism or Calvinism.

Is that what you think you are doing Ray, promoting Arminianism?

We should strive to rightly divide the Word of truth.

Instead of multiplying error.

Rom 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Rom 3:11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

Divide that for us Ray please.
Then join it to the question, "Why is Jesus the Saviour?"
Could it have something to do with saving?

Wes.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

JN 6:43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
That is no one Wes unless the Father draws them. Those are the ones that Jesus will lose none of.
If the Father draws 'all' then the only conclusion we can reach is that Jesus failed.
John 6:40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Is the whole of mankind not given to the Son?

Did Jesus fail?
A seasonal greeting to you, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21.

Did He? Which way is it? The scriptures declare that He will save His people. Are you in error or is the scripture?

If not, how is it possible for the Son to have dominion over them?

That question is not worth answering to be honest.

johnp.

 

[padredurand]

why? Was he more humble?.. smarter? More pious?

Isn't it interesting when someone says, "I chose God" and accusations of arrogance are hurled at them. As opposed to the claim, "God chose me and the rest of you can - in the most literal sense - go to hell."

Now you sound like a Calvinist. Why would the Spirit try to coerce a sinner to do something that the sinner wouldn't freely do on his own?

Love, but that's another thread.

First of all Ray you still haven't apologized for your misrepresentation of my Pastor.

Ray should apologize right after every one apologizes for their misrepresentations of: Calvin, Arminius, Luther, Billy Graham.....

Second Piper used to be a staunch Arminian and has probably studied more in one year than you have your whole life, (He is the teaching Pastor, which means the ONLY thing he does, besides some manditory meetings, ALL HE DOES IS STUDY 10 - 12 hours a day to get ready for Sunday...)

A lot of us do that and make hospital calls, conduct funerals, weddings, counseling....(maybe write a book or two)

As for Arminianism and his understanding of it Read "The Justification of God" by Piper to get him in context.. not by a out of context "snipet" by someone who doesn't know him.

Does that mean we would have to know Calvin or Arminius personally before we could study their doctrines or cite their works? Piper is a PUBLISHED AUTHOR. Once those works are published they are open to scrutiny by followers and critics alike. We get to know him, or any other author, by their works.

 

[DavidFWhite3]

Originally posted by Bro. James:


Jesus did not die for the sins of ALL the world--only those which have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life--from before the foundation of the world.

God knows ALL. He loves Jacob and hates Esau. God does according to His Sovereign Will and for His good pleasure.

Selah,

Bro. James

Bro. James:

Please re-read Revelation chapter 3. It refers to having names removed from the Book of Life. So I guess Jesus can die for some who were in the Book, but now they are not, for it clearly says their names can be removed.

To think that God intentionally wills for anyone to not be saved is the most anti-Christian doctrine ever conceived. The New Testament is clear. He wills (desires) for all to be saved. All are not saved. The purpose of evangelism is not to "discover the elect." It is to give ALL the opportunity to know what God's desire for them is, what He has done to make it possible, and what He will do if they believe.

Don't you Calvinists understand how cruel you sound? "God has elected me but not you!" That is what you are saying, when you should only be saying God loves us all and in Christ ANYONE can be saved, and whosoever believes will be saved.

Dave

 

[rc]

Padre,

Saying that "One chose God" And Calvinist's are arrogant does not ANSWER THE QUESTION !

ANSWER THE QUESTION !

 

[Wes Outwest]

RC said,

Wes,
If Ray just "chose" while others didn't ... why? Was he more humble?.. smarter? More pious? ...Your SIMPLE answer doesn't cut it. Think alittle deeper...

Why does one need to think a little deeper when the truth is on the surface. As a fisherman, I never drop my line to the bottom of the sea if I am trying to catch those fish near the surface! The Gospel was made simple to confound the wise. The acceptance of the Gospel is likewise simple, and that just beats the devil out of the wise who cannot understand it!

 

[rc]

Another philosophy... still haven't answered it...

 

[Wes Outwest]

Johnp said,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> (Wes)
Is the whole of mankind not given to the Son?

(johnp) Did Jesus fail?
A seasonal greeting to you, "She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." Matt 1:21.</font>[/QUOTE]He came unto his own (his people) and his people received him not! But to as many as did receive him, gave he the power to become the sons of God!

So did he fail? Are you saved?

Suggest you read John 17:1-26 to find out who the father gave to the son! You'll also see in that passage that we are not "the elect", we are "the world" from which those who accept the teaching of "the Elect of God" and come to believe in Jesus are saved through faith!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Padre,

Saying that "One chose God" And Calvinist's are arrogant does not ANSWER THE QUESTION !

ANSWER THE QUESTION !

Instead of pounding us with you 1 oz hammer, rc, why don't you answer the question?

 

[Ray Berrian]

David F. White 3,

You offered these words.

‘To think that God intentionally wills for anyone to not be saved is the most anti-Christian doctrine ever conceived. The New Testament is clear. He wills (desires) for all to be saved. All are not saved. The purpose of evangelism is not to "discover the elect." It is to give ALL the opportunity to know what God's desire for them is, what He has done to make it possible, and what He will do if they believe.

Don't you Calvinists understand how cruel you sound? "God has elected me but not you!" That is what you are saying, when you should only be saying God loves us all and in Christ ANYONE can be saved, and whosoever believes will be saved.’

I am reading, for the most part a good theological book, written by A.A. Hodge, D.D. Some churches or denomination give these honorary degrees if the man or woman was a successful pastor, evangelist or a writer to honor their ministry, but they might have never entered a seminary door.

His book, “Outlines of Theology” written in 1883. On page 16 he tells the readers this. ‘The point of view adopted in this book is the evangelical and specifically the Calvinistic or Augustinian one, assuming the following fundamental principles. {notice there are still a few stragglers who deny that Calvin's Instititues came from the mind and heart of the R.C. theologian Augustine}

On page 149 he starts the Attributes of God with ‘The Infinite Power of God; the Will of God, Justice, Goodness, Truth, Sovereignty, and Holiness of God.’ It is most interesting to me that he left out totally the attribute of the Love of God. Is anyone surprised? I thought I missed something and have checked this important section of his writing several times.

Now lest some of the brethren get their feelings hurt, let me say that even Calvinists have some idea of the love of God, albeit, that love is ministered by Christ to only those special human sinners via His alleged Effectual Call. In my view their General Call can never be fathomed as being a sincere call to all lost sinners.

A prominent Five Point Calvinist, Mr. Harold Camping never entered a seminary and adding to his credentials has written several published books. He set the time of the Second Coming I think back before the turn of the century and now teaches that Christians should leave their churches and listen to his teaching or other radio instructors of the Word, though he never designates anyone but himself. The other evening I heard him defined another date for the Second Coming, something like 2009. Get your white robes on and head for California.

I think the best scenario is to go to a Bible College or seminary where they teach both views and then the scholar can elect which view he or she thinks is most Biblical. Usually, denominations are trumpeting their own doctrinal presuppositions and traditions.

Dave, your post shows your sincere desire to be objective; your first sentence I am sure has the sanctifying blessing coming from the Lord Himself.

Brother Ray

 

[rc]

Wes,
Again switching Israel for the elect and the elect for Israel.... "His people that did not receive Him" is talking about the decendents of Jacob. Those who He will save from their sins is talking about the elect... John 17? Maybe you should check it out in CONTEXT...

John 17:9 I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me

John 10:26 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

 

[padredurand]

As we bandy about this 400 year old rusty gate,

Saying that "One chose God" And Calvinist's are arrogant does not ANSWER THE QUESTION !

ANSWER THE QUESTION !

John 16:7-10 NAS
7 “But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
8 “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;

It is the work of the Holy Spirit to quicken the heart of man. A sin-soaked heart can never become convince nor convicted of their fallen state without the work and office of the Holy Spirit. See, it doesn't matter whether one argues Calvinism or Arminianism. The most reasoned apology will not and cannot convince and convict.

See here the office of the Spirit, first to reprove, or to convince. Convincing work is the Spirit’s work; he can do it effectually, and none but he. It is the method the Holy Spirit takes, first to convince, and then to comfort. The Spirit shall convince the world, of sin; not merely tell them of it. The Spirit convinces of the fact of sin; of the fault of sin; of the folly of sin; of the filth of sin, that by it we are become hateful to God; of the fountain of sin, the corrupt nature; and lastly, of the fruit of sin, that the end thereof is death. The Holy Spirit proves that all the world is guilty before God. He convinces the world of righteousness; that Jesus of Nazareth was Christ the righteous. Also, of Christ’s righteousness, imparted to us for justification and salvation. He will show them where it is to be had, and how they may be accepted as righteous in God’s sight. Christ’s ascension proves the ransom was accepted, and the righteousness finished, through which believers were to be justified. Matthew Henry

In the flesh one can read and comprehend the Bible in the same manner you could read a novel or textbook. In the flesh one can listen to an exposition of Scripture, hear and cognitively understand the work of the Cross in the same way you would a lecture on, say, the pollination of daisies. Yet, there is no change wrought in me until the Holy Spirit convinces of sin and convicts of righteousness. Isn't that a belief of both Calvinist and Arminians??

How then am I saved? By the Holy Spirit working in me.
How do I confess Jesus is Lord? By the Holy Spirit working in me.
How do I believe God raised Jesus from the dead? By the Holy Spirit working in me.
How can I be assured of my salvation? By the Holy Spirit working in me.

It is not by my intellect, piety, humility or inclination, but by the Holy Spirit working in me.

How can I know the man sitting next to me is among the elect or not? I cannot nor can you until the Holy Spirit works in him.

John 17:9 I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me

Who are those the Father has given to Christ? We can think of them only on general terms. We call them the "elect" and differ on how they got to be as such. What business of ours is that? We can only discern someone's 'election' after the fact; when we see the fruit evident in their lives, as we have seen it in our own. Several of you have discussed the Book of Life. What does it contain? Names. There is not a general entry that says, "The Elect". It is a book of names.

I have never seen this book nor read the names it contains, therefore, I am compelled to follow the Great Commission "and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” Acts 1:8

Whosoever and all is God's business.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by rc:
Wes,
Again switching Israel for the elect and the elect for Israel.... "His people that did not receive Him" is talking about the decendents of Jacob. Those who He will save from their sins is talking about the elect... John 17? Maybe you should check it out in CONTEXT...

John 17:9 I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me

And who did God give to Jesus?

Simon who is known as Peter, and his brother Andrew; James the son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who was also his betrayer.

These are the elect that Jesus was praying for in John17:9. Jesus' prayer continues and in John 17:20 He says, "I pray not only for these but also for those who through their teaching will come to believe in me." In other words those who are saved out of "the world". And that sir is US! All who have come to believe in Jesus through the teaching of the Elect Apostles.

John 10:26 26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

Who is Jesus' Flock? It is ALL who believe in Jesus. [/QUOTE]