Isn't it interesting when someone says, "I chose God" and accusations of arrogance are hurled at them.
If you are saying we are just as bad as you then I would not complain.
If someone says they chose to go to God when the scriptures all say different then you are selfrighteous. That, if you know the scriptures, is arrogance. You throw God's word back in His face. You say you know better than Him. Has He not the right to make some for Hell and some for Heaven? Simple isn't it? We get it in the neck for quoting scripture. Has anyone sought after God? The answer comes back loud and clear from you lot, yes is the answer. Arrogance and blindness. You sit in the dark and you are telling us?
Free will is negated in the presence of coercion. Vote for me or go to Hell.
That's a simple statement. If there has been a reply to this I cannot remember it. Remind me, is free will not negated by coercion?
As opposed to the claim, "God chose me and the rest of you can - in the most literal sense - go to hell."
Not 'go' really, sent, sent to Hell would be scriptural, they would rather be in Hell, by a God that allowed them their way. Still they were not intimidated by the coercion! I wonder why. Common sense should prevail. Looking after number one is usually number one to us. But God did say the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so, Rom 8:7, didn't He?
So I would concur with you Wes, "The acceptance of the Gospel is likewise simple... ." Only you make it difficult. When He says that He will have mercy on who He wants and compassion on whoever He wants we are meant to believe it. We are meant to believe it because He wants His children to know that about Him. That we are important to Him. Not lost in a crowd. We are important enough to go to Hell for. When He says that those He chooses, to share His life with, those He will save, He means it. If that means He tells the others to go to Hell what is that to you? Do you dare say that is unfair? Do you dare talk back to Him?
He did not.
He saved me. But if He came to save His people, and you say all are His people, then you say He failed. He did not save anyone you said!
Is that not so?
Suggest you read John 17:1-26 to find out who the father gave to the son!
John 17:9 I pray for them.
I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
No intercession for those considered the world.
If He don't pray for them He certainly didn't die for them did He?
No you say, He died to pay the debt of sin, not for anyone in particular! Yet He told me that He loved me and gave Himself for me. I don't know why He has not told you the same thing.
John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
There is intercession for some. A limited intercession. JN 1:10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. That is the world you say He died for. That is the world He says He does not pray for. So He will do His best for us but not the least? All that the Father draws to Christ will not be prayed for by Jesus because they are the world and He does not pray for the world does He?
Why do you persist in this nonsense of 'He elects those who chose Him?' That is not the meaning of election and if it was then it would be a work because one must make oneself electable! And you say the scriptures should be taken simply? Being elected means being chosen. Did you make yourself chosenable?
You change the meaning of words to fit into your deathtrap and then you go see who you can trap. That is not fishing.
John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world,
but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Jesus said, "I pray for them, for them, those you has given Me. For those you haven't given me I do not pray for." They don't stand a chance. They haven't a prayer!
The lost sheep He claims as His. He came to seek the lost sheep. You say He failed. I say He found the lost sheep. He succeeded. He is The Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. He does not say that He lay down His life for the pigs, the dogs or the goats. You can't think that The Good Shepherd would lose a sheep, how can you think that? Don't you know Him? What happens then, does a goat turn into a sheep and if He does not believe anymore he turns back into a goat?HaHa! There, I thought He made them after their own kind.
Those He predestined He saves. Predestined means that He destined 'those' for glory 'before'. That is the only meaning of the word 'pre'. Before what? Before everything. It does not mean He skipped along to the end to see what we got up to! What a miserable thing to think. He knows the end from the beginning, or is that too simple. It is He that directs all things. And that 'all things' is all things because my God is Sovereign. Chosen by Him for Him, not for me or anything I do, but because He so decided. His I am. His Israel.
Chosen, elected, predestined, redeemed, saved, foreknown, loved, atoned for, ransom paid in full. Go and learn what these words mean. Then tell us what they mean not what you want them to mean. Simple.
What did you say predestined meant, that He chose to save those that chose to save themselves?
The Song of Songs is about the Lord God Almighty and His Church.
He hates divorce. Divorce is failed, because love was not present. He loves me with an everlasting love. Love never fails. Do you claim He loves you because you love Him O great and mighty ones? The only reason He loves you is because you first loved Him? You turn the scriptures upside down. That He will not love you if you don't love Him? That is not love. Love never fails praise Him!
Here, take a look at our arrogance. The sheer pride in us.
Ezekiel 36:26-27 6 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Why?
Eze 36:32 I want you to know that I am not doing this for your sake, declares the Sovereign LORD. Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel!
That's our arrogance. Your arrogance stands head and shoulders above ours. You trust in your own strength, O worthy ones.
Be ashamed and disgraced for your conduct, O house of Israel! That is the Church my Father is addressing.
Ray.
Many are called but few are chosen.
That is simple English Ray what's the problem? Anyone would think you have an interest in God's enemies.
Many are called but few are chosen.
How do you make this mean all are called and none are chosen?
What's the problem with Augustine. If he thought as Calvin or Calvin thought as him so what? A mention was made earlier about the connection he had with the RCC. If he had been alive a little later he would have been burnt as millions of our brothers and sisters were. You believe the same as those that burnt the saints. That man was not destroyed in the fall. That there is goodness in him. But the scripture is clear that none seek God.
These twelve who we now know as the Apostles were ELECT from the foundation of the world, they had always been part of God's redemption plan for man. The rest of those given during Jesus' physical presence were given as the result of their belief in Jesus.
(Wes)
Some are elect are they? Well it looks like you are a Calvinist, been convinced have you? What of their free will? There are now, according to you, a chosen elect.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
No, those that are drawn are drawn effectively. (Gene)
YOU HOPE! (Wes)
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
A straight forward denial of the words of Jesus Wes.
Whatcha think?
johnp.
