1 Timothy 2 - All Men

[Layman]

In 1 Timothy 2, does the "all" in bold italics refer to the same or different people groups? If they are different, what hermeneutical methodology, if any, is being utilized to divide them up?

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

 

[37818]

@Layman,

I do not understand your difficulty?

 

[Layman]

@Layman,

I do not understand your difficulty?

Hello, Brother.

No difficulty on my end. I believe that the "all" is referring to all of the same types of men in order to be consistent throughout the whole text. For example, others might see a distinction between the "all" He desires to be saved and the "all" He is the mediator for. If one holds that position, I am inquiring on what basis that distinction is to be made.

 

[atpollard]

“All sorts” seems to be the only reasonable “all” that fits all uses of the word in the quoted paragraph. Clearly it is beyond my ability to offer “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men” without exception … all 8 billion of them! I don’t even know the name of the person in authority over me at my local County Commission, or the City Commissioner in whose district I work, or the head of the local School Board. Am I really expected to offer intercessions and thanksgivings for these unknown individuals?

The point seems to be one of “non-exclusion”. There is nobody that God has called me to withhold prayer for. There is nobody with whom I am to strive to be at war. There is nobody whose damnation brings God pleasure.

 

[Silverhair]

In 1 Timothy 2, does the "all" in bold italics refer to the same or different people groups? If they are different, what hermeneutical methodology, if any, is being utilized to divide them up?

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

To be consistent through the text you have to see that 'All' refers to all men, not types as you are suggesting.

giving of thanks, be made for all men
for kings, and for all that are in authority {they are included in the "all men"}
who will have all men to be saved
who gave himself a ransom for all

What are we told in these verses that relates to "all men"
1] supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men
2] God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved
3] Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all

So we know that Kings and those in authority are included in "all men"
But why did Paul separate them out:
that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

God desires "all" to be saved and Christ gave himself a ransom for "all".
Are you suggesting that Kings and those in authority are not part of those that God desires to be saved or that Christ was not a ransom for them?

 

[Layman]

To be consistent through the text you have to see that 'All' refers to all men, not types as you are suggesting.

You might think that you're being consistent, but if you carefully think through your position, you'll realize that you'll have a number of inconsistencies that come up.

You can't really pray for every single person if the majority of people on the planet are unknown to us.

God desires everybody to be saved, but He just can't get what He wants because human autonomy is getting in the way.

If He truly did give Himself as a ransom for everybody, then everybody is going to be saved.

The reformed understanding really simplifies the whole thing.

Prayers are to be made for those types of men—the kings and rulers who are part of God's elect. He desires for those in that class of people to be saved, and they most certainly will because He gave Himself as a ransom for them.

 

[JonC]

In 1 Timothy 2, does the "all" in bold italics refer to the same or different people groups? If they are different, what hermeneutical methodology, if any, is being utilized to divide them up?

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In that verse "all" means all men. Not only were not all kings, when this letter was penned, not Christian but we do not know of any that were. When Paul and Timothy died, still there was not a Christian king. So this can't refer to types.

Other passages support this as well. God desires that all men be saved and none perish (this is consistent to God repeatedly stating He desired those to come to repentance who never did, and Him not desiring the punishment of the wicked).

 

[Silverhair]

You might think that you're being consistent, but if you carefully think through your position, you'll realize that you'll have a number of inconsistencies that come up.

You can't really pray for every single person if the majority of people on the planet are unknown to us.

God desires everybody to be saved, but He just can't get what He wants because human autonomy is getting in the way.

If He truly did give Himself as a ransom for everybody, then everybody is going to be saved.

The reformed understanding really simplifies the whole thing.

Prayers are to be made for those types of men—the kings and rulers who are part of God's elect. He desires for those in that class of people to be saved, and they most certainly will because He gave Himself as a ransom for them.

Your logic is really flawed.

What would make you think I have to know each persons name. I pray for all the political leaders of Canada, Alberta and my home city but I do not know all their names. Just as I pray the all people would come to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus as the idea of anyone spending eternity in hell tears at my soul.

Are you saying that you only pray for those that you know personally?

You are correct that although God desires all to be saved He will not force anyone to be saved. Those that reject Him do it of their own free will. Those that trust in Him do it of their own free will.

The reformed view distorts the gospel message through the TULIP/DoG philosophy. Which is why you have made the logical error that you have. You are reading your flawed philosophy into the text and thus you come to a errant understanding of it.

You say I am wrong then show me where I am wrong in that text.

 

[Layman]

Not only were not all kings, when this letter was penned, not Christian but we do not know of any that were. When Paul and Timothy died, still there was not a Christian king.

But we do know of kings who became Christians after the canon was completed. Constantine is a prime example.

God desires that all men be saved and none perish (this is consistent to God repeatedly stating He desired those to come to repentance who never did, and Him not desiring the punishment of the wicked).

You're right, God doesn't desire the punishment of the wicked. There are also passages that state God does indeed desire the punishment of the wicked. There has to be a balance between the two.

 

[Layman]

Are you saying that you only pray for those that you know personally?

Of course not. We can pray for an individual or a general group of people to be granted repentance and faith, but at the end of the day, we have to allow for God's will to be done, not our will.

You are correct that although God desires all to be saved He will not force anyone to be saved.

Why isn't God powerful enough to force something to happen that He wants to happen?

You say I am wrong then show me where I am wrong in that text.

I did present a few issues with the synergistic interpretation in post #6. You're welcome to address them one at a time and show me where I'm the one going wrong.

 

[Deacon]

Sure glad that I’m not a woman,
I hear that only SOME of them are chosen.
[/sarcasm]

Rob

 

[JonC]

But we do know of kings who became Christians after the canon was completed. Constantine is a prime example.



You're right, God doesn't desire the punishment of the wicked. There are also passages that state God does indeed desire the punishment of the wicked. There has to be a balance between the two.

It does not matter what kings became Christians after all Scripture was written. If anything it would only matter what kings were Christians when Paul wrote the letter.

But it does depend on how one reads Scripture. When there is no legitimate reason from the actual text to mean "all types" rather than "all" I'd take it to mean all. Context ultimately dictates the meaning and people hold different understandings of the context.

I will have to go through the passage again.

 

[JonC]

I am going to have to stick with "all men" being all men rather than types of men.

One reason is prayers for kings and those in authority has a stated purpose in the passage, so this wasn't types.

Another is the location and people involved later in the letter. This was addressing issues in the church in Ephesus, which was a primary Gentile congregation and location. Paul, when dealing with types, seems to focus on Jew and Gentile potential divisions. This can't be the case here.

 

[Zaatar71]

But we do know of kings who became Christians after the canon was completed. Constantine is a prime example.



You're right, God doesn't desire the punishment of the wicked. There are also passages that state God does indeed desire the punishment of the wicked. There has to be a balance between the two.

You are correct. God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, but the wicked who remain outside of Christ will be justly punished a go to the judgment dead in their sins. Mt.7 indicates this. God is very willing that multitudes perish in their sins. He has never designed or intended to save all men who have been born. The all in the passage as you indicated is that prayer is to be made for all men, even those in authority, kings ,rulers ...all men regular people even leaders...

 

[Layman]

It does not matter what kings became Christians after all Scripture was written. If anything it would only matter what kings were Christians when Paul wrote the letter.

Of course it applied to them in their day; however, any Christian, whether or not they are kings, is still being gathered into the body of Christ in the present and future.

It does not matter what kings became Christians after all Scripture was written. If anything it would only matter what kings were Christians when Paul wrote the letter.

When there is no legitimate reason from the actual text to mean "all types" rather than "all" I'd take it to mean all.

I would encourage anybody to stop and ask themselves, "All of what?" Context clues are there to help the reader make that distinction. In this case, I see the "all" is being limited to kings and rulers. If Paul really meant all without exception, he wouldn't have needed to even mention kings and rulers since they are already included in all of humanity.

 

[Silverhair]

Of course not. We can pray for an individual or a general group of people to be granted repentance and faith, but at the end of the day, we have to allow for God's will to be done, not our will.

Of course God's will will be done and the bible is clear that He desires all men & women to come to Him. Why do you have such a hard time admitting that. He is not looking at types of people but at people. Calvinism errors in their understanding of what those verses tell us.

Why isn't God powerful enough to force something to happen that He wants to happen?

God can force what He wants but He does not want to force people to believe in Him. God uses various means to draw people to Him such as creation, conviction of sin, the gospel message but where does to say that He forces people to trust in Him?

I did present a few issues with the synergistic interpretation in post #6. You're welcome to address them one at a time and show me where I'm the one going wrong.

I did answer your post #6 in post # 8 but I do notice that you have neglected to answer post #5.

You give your opinion but you did not deal with the actual text did you.

 

[Silverhair]

Of course it applied to them in their day; however, any Christian, whether or not they are kings, is still being gathered into the body of Christ in the present and future.



I would encourage anybody to stop and ask themselves, "All of what?" Context clues are there to help the reader make that distinction. In this case, I see the "all" is being limited to kings and rulers. If Paul really meant all without exception, he wouldn't have needed to even mention kings and rulers since they are already included in all of humanity.

Now you are just playing games. Paul told you why he said to include "Kings and those in authority" in their prayers, all you had too do was keep reading for the answer "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty"

But it seems that the average calvinist has a reading problem;
Context clues are there to help the reader understand the passage if they can get past their bias:
1] supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men
2] God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved
3] Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all

Willful blindness is a dangerous thing @Layman. The truth is right there in the text and you ignore it so you can hold to your philosophy.

 

[JonC]

Of course it applied to them in their day; however, any Christian, whether or not they are kings, is still being gathered into the body of Christ in the present and future.



I would encourage anybody to stop and ask themselves, "All of what?" Context clues are there to help the reader make that distinction. In this case, I see the "all" is being limited to kings and rulers. If Paul really meant all without exception, he wouldn't have needed to even mention kings and rulers since they are already included in all of humanity.

I don't see the "all" as limited to kings and rulers. One is the placement of "kings".

The prayers in verse 2 is for all men, then the comma for kings and rulers that the "we" will live in peace. Verse 3 is "all" (it is also not limited).

In other words, we pray for all men
We pray for rulers that we might live in peace
God desires all to be saved

 

[Layman]

@Silverhair @JonC

Thank you for contributing to this discussion. It is very much appreciated.

 

[atpollard]

Sure glad that I’m not a woman,
I hear that only SOME of them are chosen.
[/sarcasm]

Rob

for to Moses He saith, 'I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;' so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness: - Romans 9:15-16 [YLT]

I enjoyed your humor. If I may make an observation, God has a soft spot for "choosing" women.

Consider for a moment "Joseph" and "Daniel" and all they did right (and trusted God) and all they suffered for it.
Consider "Rahab" and "Ruth" and all they did wrong in her life (yet they TRUSTED God) and all they received for that trust.

[shrug] ... just an observation.