1 Timothy 3:16

[franklinmonroe]

I Timothy 2:5

"one God, the man Christ Jesus"

He is God. He is Saviour. He is the mediator between God and man. He is Jesus.

See? Nothing hard about that!

Isn't any one else capable of correcting Sal's error, or am I gonna have to do it myself?

 

[franklinmonroe]

Could you be specific as to what part "is not true at all"? I'll make it easy for you, was it --

1. As has been discussed, (was it not discussed?)
2. by accepting the word "God" here there is no need for an antecedent, and thus nothing which points to "Christ Jesus";
(is this grammatically untrue?)
3. which why some have come to an erroneous interpretation of 'Oneness'. (the above grammatical construction didn't contribute to their interpretation?)
4. As you suggested, (was it not suggested?)
or
5. it requires other scriptures with consistent hermenuetics to prevent the Oneness theology from gaining a foothold here. (scripture is not proved or disproved by other scripture?)​

Sal, we are still waiting for your answer to this.

 

[EdSutton]

Sal, we are still waiting for your answer to this.

Don't let it bother you too much.

It appears Salamander makes a lot of "hit-and-run" posts.

I'm still waiting to find out what this comment he made that was directed to me is supposed to be for.

BTW, The KJB.

I figured out the rest of his caricature of me, in that particular post, but still don't get the intent or meaning of this comment. And as my IQ is supposed to be a few points above average (from what I've been told by those who have seen my test results from many years ago, even though I never have seen them, BTW.), so I think I might be able to 'get' it, if it is explained a little bit.

Salamander, would you mind indulging me just a bit on this. Thank you.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Isn't any one else capable of correcting Sal's error, or am I gonna have to do it myself?

Well, aside from the little insignificant, miniscule, trivial, and inconsequential fact that he left out part of the verse, in order to 'prove' a point, what is the error?

Guess you'll still have to do the correcting.

Language Cop has already gone to bed for the evening, and I'm following his lead. 'Nite, all.

Ed

 

[franklinmonroe]

Exactly what my ESV says!

I hope that statement was in jest; otherwise, you have a defective Bible and should get it replaced immediately with the complete version. Here is what my ESV says at 1 Timothy 2:5 --

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

I don't know about you, but the fact that Christ Jesus is our Mediator is kinda' important to me!

 

[Mexdeaf]

I hope that statement was in jest; otherwise, you have a defective Bible and should get it replaced immediately with the complete version. Here is what my ESV says at 1 Timothy 2:5 --

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

I don't know about you, but the fact that Christ Jesus is our Mediator is kinda' important to me!

My ESV says that, too!

I was just poking a little fun at Sal. Yes, the fact that Christ is our Mediator- the ONLY one- is important to me, especially since I work in a predominantly Catholic country.

 

[franklinmonroe]

Well, aside from the little insignificant, miniscule, trivial, and inconsequential fact that he left out part of the verse, in order to 'prove' a point,...

To misinterpret a passage is forgivable. However, to intentionally misrepresent scripture (without any indication, no ellipsis, nothing) is an abomination; words really cannot describe my disgust and abhorrence.

 

[franklinmonroe]

I Timothy 2:5

"one God, the man Christ Jesus"

Sal has attempted to use this mutilated editing of I Timothy 2:5 as proof for the Deity of Christ. Christ Jesus the man is also fully God, and verse five is loaded with wonderful theology; however, the Deity of Christ is NOT one of the teachings here. In context (1 Timothy 2:1-6, KJV) --

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

Paul exhorts believers that prayers ought be made for all people (including our earthly leaders) because it is pleasing to God (vs. 1-3). God (the antecedent of "Who") wants all people to come to salvation (v.4). Verse five then describes two reasons why salvation and prayer should be "for" every person because: 1) there is only one God, and 2) there is only one Mediator.

First, that there is only one God (an OT precept) is also the teaching in Romans where Paul explains that the only God of creation, the one true God of the Jews, must logically also be the God of the Gentiles. God is the God of saved and the lost; there are not many 'gods'. This is simply the teaching of the first phrase of verse five.

Second, Jesus said of Himself that He was the one and only Way, the only Truth, the one Life and "no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6) showing that Jesus is that one Mediator (the second theological truth of v.5). Throughout the letter of 1 Timothy, Paul uses "God" as God the Father and "Jesus" as God the Son (Second Person of the Trinity). The third and fourth truths of v.5 are that Jesus was human, and the Messiah.

There is a lot of theology packed into this short verse. 1 Timothy 2:5 directly supports four doctrines, none of which are the Deity of Christ. In fact, at least two of these truths display Christ as being distinctly different (in His separate role as Mediator and also as the Person that became human) from God. God the Father is not His own mediator (illogical). The entire Godhead (Trinity) did not become human; only the Son (see other scriptures).

BTW, how should we pray? We pray to God ("Our Father,..." as Jesus taught) in or through Jesus' name (our Mediator-Priest). Two Personalities of the Godhead with two different roles.

He is God. He is Saviour. He is the mediator between God and man. He is Jesus

In 1 Timothy 2:5, God the Father (not Jesus) is "God", Jesus (not God) is the "mediator", and "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man. This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God; but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either. {God (not Jesus) is "Saviour" is found in verse 4. Wow, there it is!}

See? Nothing hard about that!

It must be hard because you failed (and the "challenge" was for five). Try reading passages with comprehension, instead of trying to force your preconceptions on the text.

 

[Salamander]

Anyone who understands the use of the commas knows full well that the first phrase is in complete agreement and receives the compliment by the last phrase offset by the commas. Why don't you?

English reads with the commas omitted along with the phrase offset by them.

Learn Basic English.

 

[Salamander]

In 1 Timothy 2:5, God the Father (not Jesus) is "God", Jesus (not God) is the "mediator", and "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man. This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God; but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either. {God (not Jesus) is "Saviour" is found in verse 4. Wow, there it is!}

You really sound confused here; first you say Jesus is not God, then you say that it doesn't say Jesus is not God.

Doctrinally speaking, I Tim 2:5 strengthens the Trinity in that Jesus, the man, is God!

 

[Keith M]

Anyone who understands the use of the commas knows full well that the first phrase is in complete agreement and receives the compliment by the last phrase offset by the commas. Why don't you?

English reads with the commas omitted along with the phrase offset by them.

Learn Basic English.

Salamander, you remain utterly confused. The New Testament was not written in English - it was written in Greek. And since the NT was written in Greek there were no commas and other punctuation marks found in present-day English. The English, along with its commas and other punctuation marks, is nothing more than a translation of the original Greek. As always, you place more importance on what the translation says than on what the original says. Maybe one day you'll learn.

 

[franklinmonroe]

You really sound confused here; first you say Jesus is not God, then you say that it doesn't say Jesus is not God...

No, I never wrote that "Jesus is not God" as you misrepresent above. Here is what I wrote--

In 1 Timothy 2:5, God the Father (not Jesus) is "God", Jesus (not God) is the "mediator", and "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man. This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God; but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either.​

Notice the word "is" is NOT present in any of the occurrences where "Jesus" and "not God" are found together. More obviously, the two proper names are separated by parenthesis in all cases.

The three phrases followed the construction in your post. To aid your limited capacity for comprehension, I have removed the words in parenthesis for you --

God the Father is "God", Jesus is the "mediator", and "Jesus" is a man.​

Observe, there never was a statement of "Jesus is not God". The only confusion was yours. That I wrote "it doesn't teach that He isn't God either" agrees and corresponds with the rest of my post.

Perhaps, a fresh example with parenthesis will help you
grasp the concept --

Sal (not Bozo) is "Sal", Bozo (not Sal) is a "clown", and "Bozo" (not Sal) is unbias.​

Notice that I never wrote that "Sal is not Bozo". If it were possible for Bozo to be both Sal and unbias at the same time it would be a perfect analogy.

 

[Salamander]

Salamander, you remain utterly confused. The New Testament was not written in English - it was written in Greek. And since the NT was written in Greek there were no commas and other punctuation marks found in present-day English. The English, along with its commas and other punctuation marks, is nothing more than a translation of the original Greek. As always, you place more importance on what the translation says than on what the original says. Maybe one day you'll learn.

Oh? So you offer the English translation and then attempt to negate that which perfectly relates the Greek and then argue against that as well?

And you think I am utterly confused??????????:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Salamander]

In 1 Timothy 2:5, God the Father (not Jesus) is "God", Jesus (not God) is the "mediator", and "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man.

"God the Father is "'God'"

Your emphasis, in bold (not Jesus), tells everyone that you're saying that Jesus is not God, nor is Jesus the Father, who is God.

Then again for a second time you say, in bold, "Jesus (not God)".

Then you go into your extra-Biblical rant and say Jesus is "mediator" and that Jesus is a man with your emphasis, in bold, "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) as if to maintain that extra-Biblical, anti-doctrinal view that Jesus is somehow not God, not the second part of the Trinity and only merely a man.

Your view smacks in the face of so many other Scriptures that causes disharmony to the Scripture as the whole.

That view, of yours, also goes against 2Ti 3:16All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Now either you're speaking expressly against Paul, or trying to un-inspire the word of God, or you're going against God and Paul!:sleep:

I can only hope you see your gross error.raying:

 

[Salamander]

Notice that I never wrote that "Sal is not Bozo". If it were possible for Bozo to be both Sal and unbias at the same time it would be a perfect analogy.

So help me here, Brother, for I am so limited in intelligence which hinders my comprehension of what you just said, but are you calling me "Bozo"?

 

[franklinmonroe]

...as if to maintain that extra-Biblical, anti-doctrinal view that Jesus is somehow not God, not the second part of the Trinity and only merely a man.

Your view smacks in the face of so many other Scriptures that causes disharmony to the Scripture as the whole.

Now either you're speaking expressly against Paul, or trying to un-inspire the word of God, or you're going against God and Paul!

I can only hope you see your gross error.

If any other BB reader that has read this thread from the beginning has gotten the impression that I am expousing theologically that Christ Jesus was not God beyond the context of this thread, please PM me.

I do believe that Jesus is also God and I want to assure any one that I am merely debating the translation and grammatical contruction of 1 Timothy 2:5 (which I have offered evidence that indicates that the Deity of Christ is not a truth established in this particular verse) as it is related to the discussion of 1 Timothy 3:16, which I believe does teach the Deity of Christ.

And if reasoning readers have NOT been given the impression in my posts that I actually believe the error that Sal has ascribed to me, that is, I hold an "extra-Biblical, anti-doctrinal view" in order to "un-inspire the word of God", then either: 1) Sal has inexplicably not comprehended what was plain to others, or 2) Sal has intentionally prepetuaded the most heinous slander upon me.

If I must fear that my words will be twisted into heresies, then I will have to forfeit writing upon the BB.

 

[franklinmonroe]

"God the Father is "'God'"

Your emphasis, in bold (not Jesus), tells everyone that you're saying that Jesus is not God, nor is Jesus the Father, who is God...

The question is always the same with Sal: is he just careless and prone to error, or maliciously deceitful?

Go back and look at my Post #112 and Sal's Post #114 of this thread and it can be seen that I didn't emphasize the words "(not Jesus)" with bold. This is another of Sal's many errors.

 

[Mexdeaf]

If any other BB reader that has read this thread from the beginning has gotten the impression that I am expousing theologically that Christ Jesus was not God beyond the context of this thread, please PM me.

I do believe that Jesus is also God and I want to assure any one that I am merely debating the translation and grammatical contruction of 1 Timothy 2:5 (which I have offered evidence that indicates that the Deity of Christ is not a truth established in this particular verse) as it is related to the discussion of 1 Timothy 3:16, which I believe does teach the Deity of Christ.

And if reasoning readers have NOT been given the impression in my posts that I actually believe the error that Sal has ascribed to me, that is, I hold an "extra-Biblical, anti-doctrinal view" in order to "un-inspire the word of God", then either: 1) Sal has inexplicably not comprehended what was plain to others, or 2) Sal has intentionally prepetuaded the most heinous slander upon me.

If I must fear that my words will be twisted into heresies, then I will have to forfeit writing upon the BB.

Bro. Franklin Monroe,

I vote for slander.

I completely understood what you were trying to say, and I would wager that everyone except Salamander did also. Like the creature of his user name, Salamander has different adaptations to avoid being caught. He changes colors at will, and if you do somehow manage to corner him he will just 'drop off his tail' - so to speak - he can always grow a new one.

Please do continue to contribute to the BB, I have gleaned much knowledge from your postings.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Franklinmonroe: //I do believe that Jesus is also God and I want
to assure any one that I am merely debating the translation
and grammatical contruction of 1 Timothy 2:5 (which I have
offered evidence that indicates that the Deity of Christ is not
a truth established in this particular verse) as it is related
to the discussion of 1 Timothy 3:16, which I believe does
teach the Deity of Christ.//

Amen, Brother Franklinmonroe -- Preach it!

The above statement is consisitent with other posts that
Brother Franklinmonroe has posted the year
he has been on this BB (Baptist Board).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Bro. Franklin Monroe,

I vote for slander.

I completely understood what you were trying to say, and I would wager that everyone except Salamander did also. Like the creature of his user name, Salamander has different adaptations to avoid being caught. He changes colors at will, and if you do somehow manage to corner him he will just 'drop off his tail' - so to speak - he can always grow a new one.

Please do continue to contribute to the BB, I have gleaned much knowledge from your postings.

Amen, Brother Mexdeaf -- Preach it! :thumbs: