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1 Timothy 3:16

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Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Franklinmonroe: //I do believe that Jesus is also God and I want
to assure any one that I am merely debating the translation
and grammatical contruction of 1 Timothy 2:5 (which I have
offered evidence that indicates that the Deity of Christ is not
a truth established in this particular verse) as it is related
to the discussion of 1 Timothy 3:16, which I believe does
teach the Deity of Christ.//

Amen, Brother Franklinmonroe -- Preach it!

The above statement is consisitent with other posts that
Brother Franklinmonroe has posted the year
he has been on this BB (Baptist Board).
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
Salamander said:
... Then again for a second time you say, in bold, "Jesus (not God)".
Sal is practicing his deceptive editing again! It is significant that that these bolds were not a part of the post where these statements were first written (Post #108), but were added in a subsequent post to aid readers in a response. Here is my Post #112 exactly as I originally published it (you can check easily); notice that at the second "Jesus (not God)" {as Sal falsely presents it in his post} my closing parenthesis is INTENTIONALLY NOT INCLUDED (nor is it bold) because there are clarifying words after "God" ("the Father or the Trinity") that Sal doesn't want to acknowledge --

In 1 Timothy 2:5, God the Father (not Jesus) is "God", Jesus (not God) is the "mediator", and "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man. This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God; but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either.​

I stand behind my statements collectively and individually --
  • God the Father (not Jesus) is "God" - as I am asserting that the term 'God' is primarily used throughout 1 Timothy
  • Jesus (not God) is the "mediator" - do any here believe that God the Father is identified as our Mediator?
  • "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man - do any here deny that Jesus was the only Person of the Godhead that became human?
  • This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God - if my assertion above and my evaluation of the context are correct
  • but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either - there is nothing in the verse that would cast doubt upon the Deity of Christ
Controversially(!), I've said that Paul means God the Father when he writes "God" and Paul means God the Son when he writes "Jesus" throughout 1 Timothy, which bears upon our topic verse. I feel we must be on very firm ground (textually, theologically, logically) when we begin attributing that which may be implied over that which literally stands in the text, especially in the face of an abundance of other clear prooftexts. Of course, something I have proposed may be incorrect or incomplete, and to discover my faults is, in part, why I publish into this arena of public scrutiny.

I am compelled to spend much valuable time defending against frivilous and absurd accusations, rather than advancing the discussion. However, some brethern have encouraged me, and the Holy Spirit has impressed upon me that we must not allow errors to overwhelm us, but to overcome that which false with that which is true.
 
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Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Franklinmonroe:
However, some brethern have encouraged me,
and the Holy Spirit has impressed upon me
that we must not allow errors to overwhelm us,
but to overcome that which false with that which is true.

Amen, Brother Franklinmonroe -- You Go Bro! :thumbs:
 

Keith M

New Member
franklinmonroe said:
Sal is practicing his deceptive editing again! It is significant that that these bolds were not a part of the post where these statements were first written (Post #108), but were added in a subsequent post to aid readers in a response. Here is my Post #112 exactly as I originally published it (you can check easily); notice that at the second "Jesus (not God)" {as Sal falsely presents it in his post} my closing parenthesis is INTENTIONALLY NOT INCLUDED (nor is it bold) because there are clarifying words after "God" ("the Father or the Trinity") that Sal doesn't want to acknowledge --

In 1 Timothy 2:5, God the Father (not Jesus) is "God", Jesus (not God) is the "mediator", and "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man. This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God; but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either.​
I stand behind my statements collectively and individually --
  • God the Father (not Jesus) is "God" - as I am asserting that the term 'God' is primarily used throughout 1 Timothy
  • Jesus (not God) is the "mediator" - do any here believe that God the Father is identified as our Mediator?
  • "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man - do any here deny that Jesus was the only Person of the Godhead that became human?
  • This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God - if my assertion above and my evaluation of the context are correct
  • but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either - there is nothing in the verse that would cast doubt upon the Deity of Christ
Controversially(!), I've said that Paul means God the Father when he writes "God" and Paul means God the Son when he writes "Jesus" throughout 1 Timothy, which bears upon our topic verse. I feel we must be on very firm ground (textually, theologically, logically) when we begin attributing that which may be implied over that which literally stands in the text, especially in the face of an abundance of other clear prooftexts. Of course, something I have proposed may be incorrect or incomplete, and to discover my faults is, in part, why I publish into this arena of public scrutiny.

I am compelled to spend much valuable time defending against frivilous and absurd accusations, rather than advancing the discussion. However, some brethern have encouraged me, and the Holy Spirit has impressed upon me that we must not allow errors to overwhelm us, but to overcome that which false with that which is true.

No matter how much the truth is told, there are always those who continue to fight against it with their deceptive editing and other forms of deliberate misrepresentation and prevarication. The truth is constantly fought with untruth.
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
I have not really seen evidence that other BBers agree with my assertion that 1 Timothy 2:5 does not teach the Deity of Christ. At least one poster has opposed my assertion. Perhaps others believe that I am wrong but just haven't said so, or maybe the opposing view has made some readers unsure. I will examine the alternative below --

Salamander said:
Anyone who understands the use of the commas knows full well that the first phrase is in complete agreement and receives the compliment by the last phrase offset by the commas. Why don't you?

English reads with the commas omitted along with the phrase offset by them.

Learn Basic English.
So based upon the above quote, here is that literal contruction (the commas omitted and the entire phrase between them) --

For there is one God the man Christ Jesus​

It should be evident to any one that can read English that the above words do NOT form a proper English clause, phrase, fragment, or sentence. So, Sal was wrong about the commas.

Now puncuation is not inspired and can be somewhat subjective, so if we generously lend this senseless string of words a single comma, it could transform them into a coherent thought in English. A comma might possibly be placed in a couple of spots, but let's just use the conventional placement --
For there is one God, the man Christ Jesus​

Now the words 'read'; but would that phrase be a logical point in the flow of the Paul's argument? The word "For" indicates that the next thought is related and should support the previous thought. "For..." is a little like saying 'Because of...'; the words of v.5 should complete and explain the preceding truth found in 1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV) --

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

A claim for the Deity of Christ fails the requirement of complimenting the prior truth that God wills that all people come to a saving knowledge. A declaration of the Deity of Christ in verse v.5 would be as much a non sequitur as a Virgin Birth declaration here. It simply would not be intrumental to the discourse.

God wants all men to be saved because Jesus is also God​

That doesn't make sense. So, regardless of whether grammatically two phrases in a verse can be spliced together to create a unified thought, in order for that thought to have validity it must serve the author's purpose and fit the context. Sal's assertion that the central phrase can be omitted and yet still preserve the correct reading fails to meet this fundamental criteria and is wrong.
 
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franklinmonroe

Active Member
Salamander said:
So help me here, Brother, for I am so limited in intelligence which hinders my comprehension of what you just said, but are you calling me "Bozo"?
What I wrote does not explicitly deny the possibility that you are not a "Bozo".

But this must really sound confusing to you: first, I didn't say Sal is not Bozo; then, I didn't say that it doesn't say Sal is not Bozo.
 

Salamander

New Member
franklinmonroe said:
What I wrote does not explicitly deny the possibility that you are not a "Bozo".

But this must really sound confusing to you: first, I didn't say Sal is not Bozo; then, I didn't say that it doesn't say Sal is not Bozo.
Only you know what you're saying and your cohorts in the attempt to discredit the Bible. You really should be ashamed of yourself.

You try and pit a portion of Scripture against the complete harmony of the word of God and thereby attack the well established doctrine of the Trinity of God. That attack is your motivation all the while.

Your twisted convoluted view of Scripture edifies no one. It only puffs up your ideal of what you can only think the verse says. The entirety of the Bible proves you wrong. Your own words even entangle yourself and prove you wrong. I have proven you wrong and you persist in attacking my person and attempt to denigrate my character and impugn my intergity.

Since you are insisting to remain wrong, worng you will still remain.

Mexdeaf agrees with what the KJB infers just as the ESV concurs. Too many witnesses much more powerful than you or I prove you to be in error.

Good day and God Bless.

Alan
 

Salamander

New Member
franklinmonroe said:
I have not really seen evidence that other BBers agree with my assertion that 1 Timothy 2:5 does not teach the Deity of Christ. At least one poster has opposed my assertion. Perhaps others believe that I am wrong but just haven't said so, or maybe the opposing view has made some readers unsure. I will examine the alternative below --


So based upon the above quote, here is that literal contruction (the commas omitted and the entire phrase between them) --

For there is one God the man Christ Jesus​

It should be evident to any one that can read English that the above words do NOT form a proper English clause, phrase, fragment, or sentence. So, Sal was wrong about the commas.

Now puncuation is not inspired and can be somewhat subjective, so if we generously lend this senseless string of words a single comma, it could transform them into a coherent thought in English. A comma might possibly be placed in a couple of spots, but let's just use the conventional placement --
For there is one God, the man Christ Jesus​

Now the words 'read'; but would that phrase be a logical point in the flow of the Paul's argument? The word "For" indicates that the next thought is related and should support the previous thought. "For..." is a little like saying 'Because of...'; the words of v.5 should complete and explain the preceding truth found in 1 Timothy 2:4 (KJV) --

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.​

A claim for the Deity of Christ fails the requirement of complimenting the prior truth that God wills that all people come to a saving knowledge. A declaration of the Deity of Christ in verse v.5 would be as much a non sequitur as a Virgin Birth declaration here. It simply would not be intrumental to the discourse.

God wants all men to be saved because Jesus is also God​

That doesn't make sense. So, regardless of whether grammatically two phrases in a verse can be spliced together to create a unified thought, in order for that thought to have validity it must serve the author's purpose and fit the context. Sal's assertion that the central phrase can be omitted and yet still preserve the correct reading fails to meet this fundamental criteria and is wrong.
You have just [personal attacke deleted] by your words above in bold.
[personal attack deleted]
 
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Salamander

New Member
Keith M said:
No matter how much the truth is told, there are always those who continue to fight against it with their deceptive editing and other forms of deliberate misrepresentation and prevarication. The truth is constantly fought with untruth.
You speak as a son of belial would speak.

The word of God stands true, whether you accept that or not is between you and God, your mistake though.
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
In a previous post I made the case in favor of the importance of the middle phrase of 1 Timothy 2:5 (KJV) --

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus​

Now, I will examine the importance of two key individual words in the middle phrase for the proper interpretation of this verse. The words to focus upon are "and" and "one": and can mean 'as well as', 'in addition to', 'along with' or 'also'; one can mean 'single' or 'individual'. BTW, both of the Greek words for "and" (kai) and "one" (eis) are actually found in the underlying ancient text.

Perhaps a visual aid of the word construction without "and" and "one" included will expedite our discovery --

For there is one God, { } mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus​

The above construction should indicate to the reader that the middle phrase is describing the preceding phrase; specifically, that the "one God" is a "mediator". If Paul meant that the "mediator" was referring back to "one God" then this would be the proper way to express it. We can see that the words "and" and "one" in the middle phrase are completely unnecessary to arrive at this conclusion. This structure would allow the last phrase to compliment the first --

For there is one God (the man Christ Jesus), mediator between God and men​

Even if just the "and" were included in the construction it could carry the sense of 'as well as' and still not alter this interpretation; the first comma is unneeded in this example --

For there is one God-man (Christ Jesus) {as well as} mediator between God and men​

Note that this interpretation must treat the two occurrences of the exact same word ("God") inconsistently or else there is a logical problem of a Person of the Godhead being between Himself and men (being His own mediator). The irregular method of substitution must cause only the first "God" in the verse to alter identity. If we accept that "God" is also mediator, then how can we immediately disregard this characteristic for very next "God" we find in the text? But this is absurd --

For there is one God-man (Christ Jesus) as well as mediator between {God-mediator} and men​

Of course, these are not the ways the verse is written, and when "one" is present with "and" (in the 'as well as' sense) it becomes very awkward to ascribe "mediator" to "God"; if the truth is supposed to be a single 'God-mediator' (or even 'God-man/mediator') then there is no need to repeat "one" before "mediator". A redundant "one" would not serve any purpose. In light of the audience to whom Paul is writing, it is difficult to understand the necessity for enumeration of the 'God-mediator' or 'God-man' at all, since Timothy and his brethren that are being admonished into prayer for others certainly did NOT believe in multiple gods or messiahs.

Yet when "and" is understood in the sense of 'along with' it then functions harmoniously with words "one" to form the literary parallelism of "there is one God, AND [there is] one mediator" (the verb can be implied for the second phrase). Or --

For there is one God, {along with} one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus​

As I have written in an earlier post, Paul is giving two separate and distinct reasons in v.5 that support his instruction in the preceding verses of chapter 2. In part, because of "and" and "one", I don't believe that Paul was making a singular claim (of the Deity of Christ) that doesn't corroborate or relate to his preceding discourse. Structured another way it may seem clearer --

For there is one God, and one mediator (the man Christ Jesus) between God and men​
 
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Salamander

New Member
franklinmonroe said:
If any other BB reader that has read this thread from the beginning has gotten the impression that I am expousing theologically that Christ Jesus was not God beyond the context of this thread, please PM me.

I do believe that Jesus is also God and I want to assure any one that I am merely debating the translation and grammatical contruction of 1 Timothy 2:5 (which I have offered evidence that indicates that the Deity of Christ is not a truth established in this particular verse) as it is related to the discussion of 1 Timothy 3:16, which I believe does teach the Deity of Christ.

And if reasoning readers have NOT been given the impression in my posts that I actually believe the error that Sal has ascribed to me, that is, I hold an "extra-Biblical, anti-doctrinal view" in order to "un-inspire the word of God", then either: 1) Sal has inexplicably not comprehended what was plain to others, or 2) Sal has intentionally prepetuaded the most heinous slander upon me.

If I must fear that my words will be twisted into heresies, then I will have to forfeit writing upon the BB.
You then are opposed to yourself and illustrating multiple personalities.
 

Salamander

New Member
Mexdeaf said:
Bro. Franklin Monroe,

I vote for slander.

I completely understood what you were trying to say, and I would wager that everyone except Salamander did also. Like the creature of his user name, Salamander has different adaptations to avoid being caught. He changes colors at will, and if you do somehow manage to corner him he will just 'drop off his tail' - so to speak - he can always grow a new one.

Please do continue to contribute to the BB, I have gleaned much knowledge from your postings.
I addressed only the specific words of FM.

If I were to culminate all his words I would be justified in saying he appears somewhat confused and is arguing against the whole of God's word by saying two completely and diamterically opposed statements.

I know what I believe and it is true to the words of I Tim 2:5. Jesus is God. Jesus is Mediator.

I will simply back away from this malignity of this discussion imposed by those who are in your agreement to repetively slander the salamander, tail INTACT!
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
Salamander said:
Mexdeaf agrees with what the KJB infers just as the ESV concurs. Too many witnesses much more powerful than you or I prove you to be in error.

I am afraid that you mistook my tweaking your nose for an agreement with you.

There are plenty of other proof verses for the diety of Christ without twisting 1 Timothy 2:5 to prove it. You may call me whatever you wish and condemn me as you did Franklin.
 

Salamander

New Member
Mexdeaf said:
I am afraid that you mistook my tweaking your nose for an agreement with you.

There are plenty of other proof verses for the diety of Christ without twisting 1 Timothy 2:5 to prove it. You may call me whatever you wish and condemn me as you did Franklin.
I called you nothing. I condmened no one, but thanks for the permission none the less.

I have never twisted any Scripture.

I Tim 2:5 says exactly what anyone can understand it to say with or without the phrase offset by the commas.

BTW, you never came within a hundred miles of my nose to tweak it.

Making the statements some have made and my addressing their gross error is in no way calling anyone names, denigrating their character or anything else you want to cook up about it.
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
The subject matter has been difficult to write about in clear manner, even confusing for some, and perhaps I failed to communicated in some aspect. I have tried to take every precaution in order to accurately articulate my current understanding. I have methodically analyzed the verse because I truly want to hold to the correct interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5. If this is a prooftext for the Deity of Christ, I would be indebted to any one who would explain it to me; prove it to me online or PM. Please, if you have a different view, I'd like to hear it.
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
Salamander said:
...I know what I believe and it is true to the words of I Tim 2:5. Jesus is God. Jesus is Mediator...
I can appreciate that Sal is committed to defending the Bible and its doctrines. I wish that he would make more of an effort in trying to comprehend other's posts without prejudice; I think we would all benefit from it, and the Lord would be pleased.
 

franklinmonroe

Active Member
Salamander said:
...I have proven you wrong and you persist in attacking my person and attempt to denigrate my character and impugn my intergity...
If that is the way you feel about my "Bozo" comment, then I offer my apology.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
franklinmonroe said:
The subject matter has been difficult to write about in clear manner, even confusing for some, and perhaps I failed to communicated in some aspect. I have tried to take every precaution in order to accurately articulate my current understanding. I have methodically analyzed the verse because I truly want to hold to the correct interpretation of 1 Timothy 2:5. If this is a prooftext for the Deity of Christ, I would be indebted to any one who would explain it to me; prove it to me online or PM. Please, if you have a different view, I'd like to hear it.

Franklin,

Do a Google on 'Diety of Christ' or 'Diety of Christ 1 Timothy 2:5. You might find it interesting, I did.
 

Mexdeaf

New Member
franklinmonroe said:
If that is the way you feel about my "Bozo" comment, then I offer my apology.

Let me say- "Salamander, I watched Bozo: I know Bozo; Bozo is a friend of mine. Salamander, you're no Bozo."

:laugh:
 

Askjo

New Member
franklinmonroe said:
In 1 Timothy 2:5, God the Father (not Jesus) is "God", Jesus (not God) is the "mediator", and "Jesus" (not God the Father or the Trinity) is a man. This verse doesn't specifically teach that Jesus is God; but it doesn't teach that He isn't God either.

I stand behind my statements collectively and individually --
  • Jesus (not God) is the "mediator" - do any here believe that God the Father is identified as our Mediator?
Jesus (not God)???? Does your statement contradict with this verse?
 
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