10 Misconceptions of the RCC

[DHK]

this is why terminology is important and why the Theotokos debate was so important in the early Church.

"Theotokos" added to the confusion, and even heresy.

Look at what you have just posted. It would seem that you have a Nestorian view with regard to the incarnation indicating that Mary only held Jesus' human Nature and body for 9 months and when she gave birth at some point the Divine side joined with Jesus human side.

But you know that is wrong.
Christ never gave up his deity. He was fully man and fully God at all times. That does not make Mary the mother God. To even think such a possibility could exist is absurd.

However, I know you don't believe that but that is certainly how it can be taken with what you said. In your attempt to move away from the Catholic view you have emphasised Jesus humanity in the statement.

Of course his humanity is emphasized. Mary was a vessel used by God to bring forth the body of the Lord Jesus Christ. She was a vessel that God used at that time in history. Nothing changed about her. She was still a sinner like the rest of us.

In order to maintain that Jesus in his incarnation was both divine and human at the point of his conseption the title Mother of God was given to Mary to avoid the Nestorius heresy.

So to tackle one heresy you believe in another heresy. What kind of logic is that? To refute Hinduism you believe in Buddhism?

Well, I don't know about hellish doctrine but Catholics view Mary as a created being who was created for the specific and special role of being Jesus' Mother. She is considered by Catholics to be the first Christian.

That is an opinion. You can't teach it as fact, at least not from the Bible. That is what is wrong with man made doctrine. The RCC teaches opinion for fact.
Mary "could have" been the first "Christian" but it isn't likely. Have you looked at the other possibilities.
1. Joseph also knew at a very early time. Which one of the two came to a fuller knowledge, a better realization of what was happening, we don't know. The angel said: "Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife, for that which is in her is conceived of the Holy Spirit."
2. Elizabeth knew long before then, and so did her husband Zacharias who was both a prophet and priest. An Angel appeared to them. She was barren and was told that she would have a child in her old age. He would be a Nazarite, filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. He was also the fore-runner of the Messiah. If he was the fore-runner of Christ, they would know that the Messiah was to come shortly after. They were believers in the Messiah before Mary and Joseph. They knew what was happening, perhaps Elizabeth more than Zacharias at first.
3. 700 years before the birth of Christ, Isaiah prophesied that a virgin would conceive and bring forth a son and he would be called Immanuel (God with us). He told us "A son is born." He gave us his various names or titles, indicating what kind of person he would be. He told of us the kingdom he would eventually rule, speaking of his second coming and His Messianic Kingdom. And most of all, in Isaiah 53, he elaborates on his sufferings, all the sufferings that he would go through in bearing our sins. Hardly a person can read that book without realizing that Isaiah speaks of the Messiah, the One to come. Perhaps we can safely say that Isaiah was a "Christian," a follower of Christ, the Messiah. He, more than any other wrote of Him.
4. There are also many Messianic Psalms written by David. One would do well to consider them.
--Not everything is so black and white when taking into consideration "who is the first Christian?" Maybe it was John the Baptist, himself.

though Catholics commune with her asking for her prayers we don't consider her a deity but having already recieved in her being the fulness of what God wants for humanity.

Your "communing" with her is idolatry, under the very definition of idolatry. We are to commune with God alone. Mary is dead.

Those images posted earlier are symbols representing her role as ark of the new convenant and barer within her body the very presence of God until his birth.

This is not only bad theology, it is heresy. Mary is not the ark of the new Covenant. She does not bear in her body the presence of God. Every believer does by virtue of having the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. That is more than Mary had before Pentecost.

Those images represent that.

The images represent idolatry. Read the Ten Commandments, all of them!

They are not saying that she is God or that she was crucified. But through her body God bought forth his son into the world. I don't know if you considered what I just typed heretical but that is the actual Catholic view.

She was a vessel used of God to bring Christ into the world. We believe that. Christ always was divine--fully God and fully man. She had nothing to do with his deity, and therefore is not the mother of God. To take that jump is illogical and absurd.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I dont wish to belabor the point but the entire world is overflowing with these heretical prayers....if not Mary, then some other Catholic Saint.....should be impossible to dispute but still they do it.

Quote:
Prayer by St. Alphonsus de Liguori

From the Glories of Mary

Most Holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to Thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners, I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day.

I venerate Thee, great Queen, and I thank Thee for the many graces Thou hast bestowed upon me even unto this day; in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins.

I love Thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear Thee, I promise to serve Thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make Thee loved by others also. I place in Thee all my hopes for salvation; accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle, thou who art the Mother of mercy.

And since thou art so powerful with God, deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death. From Thee I implore a true love for Jesus Christ. Through Thee I hope to die a holy death. My dear Mother, by the love thou bearest to Almighty God, I pray Thee to assist me always, but most of all at the last moment of my life. Forsake me not then, until thou shalt see me safe in heaven, there to bless Thee and sing of thy mercies through all eternity. Such is my hope. Amen.

 

[Yeshua1]

The gift to me is free. I recieve it freely. But the Gift cost Jesus his life so it wasn't free for him. That was my point.

Did Jesus atone/propiate ALL of your sins that you would EVER do?

By faith ALONE in that act, were you saved by God, and that you know RIGHT now that you will go to heaven at death for a certainity?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Did Jesus atone/propiate ALL of your sins that you would EVER do?

Yes as long as I repent of all of them. But that doesn't mean I can repent know for a sin I'm about to commit at some future point which would be the sin of presumption. I need to avoid the future sin but if I fall and repent in the future even that sin will be forgiven.

By faith ALONE in that act, were you saved by God, and that you know RIGHT now that you will go to heaven at death for a certainity?

Scriptures never say by faith alone I am saved by God. In fact it says Its not by faith alone that I am saved. And it is clearly stated in that way in James. Paul to whom most refer as holding "faith alone" never says we are saved by faith alone. He says we are saved by faith and not of works which is not to say faith alone but that works of themselves do not saved rather it is primary faith that saves. Works must result from that faith in which case he points out at the begining and end of the book of romans saying he is leading us to the faith which brings about obedience.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are not reading what I wrote. I said that Mary is the mother of the Human Nature of Jesus Christ. That is the truth and all the truth as far as Mary is concerned. The divine nature of Jesus Christ has no mother.

Catholics aren't saying Mary created the divine nature of Christ but that Christ's divine nature was in union with Christ's human nature at the conception of Jesus Christ that she held within her womb the fulness of Christ which includes both Natures you are attesting that Jesus while in the womb only had one nature which was human. And that is the Nestorian Heresy.

The heresy that Roman Catholicism has introduced is far worse than the so-called Nestorian heresy. Nestorius was correct to reject Mary as the Mother of God; he was incorrect to say there were two distinct persons in Jesus Christ!

If you think Catholics are teaching that Mary created Christ's divine nature then you are wrong. Catholics are teaching that the divine nature isn't seperated from Jesus Christ's human nature in the womb.

Through the body of Mary God brought forth His Son into the world. That is true and that is all that can be said of Mary. To call her the Mother of God is heretical.

It is not be cause it afirms the dual nature of Christ.

God has no mother. God has no father. The three persons of the Godhead are eternal!

Yes they are but that doesn't change the fact that the 2nd person of the Trinity was incarnate through the chosen created being Mary bringing his eternal nature and connecting it to humanity at the incarnation.

Lest you get confused by that statement I simply quote the following: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [John 1:1]

That doesn't change the fact that the same Word became man through Mary.

Following is some of the heretical devotion/worship applied to the Roman Catholic creation of Mary:

From:http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/catholic/ligouri_prayer.htm

At no point in that prayer do I find that it calls her God. But it is a request for prayers from her to assist Ligiori from commiting sins. Don't you ask people to pray for you to keep you from sin? Or do you like sinning so much that you don't ask for help to avoid sin?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I dont wish to belabor the point but the entire world is overflowing with these heretical prayers....if not Mary, then some other Catholic Saint.....should be impossible to dispute but still they do it.

Quote:
Prayer by St. Alphonsus de Liguori

From the Glories of Mary

Just a note here. The "Glories" referred to here is the same as when you might say when we get to heaven we recieve crown of glories. All people understand that upon entering heaven that there are rewards awaiting us from Glory to Glory.

Most Holy Virgin Immaculate

Yes this is a belief that Mary was not selected from available jewish virgins by the luck of the draw but was specially prepared and created by God for the specific role of being the Mother of Jesus Christ by saving her by prevention rather than while in her sins.

my Mother Mary

the belief that she is the first Christian and thus made the new Eve (Mother) of the new humanity that comes through Jesus Christ and referrencing what Jesus told John at the Cross to behold his mother and for her to behold her son.

to Thee who art the Mother of my Lord

or Theotokos also referrencing Elizabeth's declaration "Mother of my Lord"

, the Queen of the universe

More properly understood as Queen Mother like Bathsheeba was the Queen Mother of Solomon. Its a role rather than any statement about her divinity

the advocate

In as much as anyone of us advocates for the salvation of others not to replace the role Jesus plays for us.

the hope,

What Jesus already did with her by making her immaculate and giving crowns of glories we have that hope for ourselves that he will bestow upon us those rewards.

the refuge of sinners,

In that she is advocating for us by her prayers as anyone of us does when we pray for each other.

I who am the most miserable of all sinners, have recourse this day.

A confirmation of his sinful condition but can count on her to pray for him.

I venerate Thee, great Queen,

He honors her and call upon her title "queen mother"

and I thank Thee for the many graces Thou hast bestowed upon me even unto this day

he thanks her for her prayers in that those prayers were answered by God on his behalf.

in particular for having delivered me from the hell which I have so often deserved by my sins.

Especially for praying for his salvation which keeps him from hell. Not that she of her own accord delivered him from hell.

I love Thee, most dear Lady; and for the love I bear Thee, I promise to serve Thee willingly for ever and to do what I can to make Thee loved by others also.

He has taken the step of personalizing Mary as his Spiritual Mother example and wishes to treat her with a respect one gives to his mother.

I place in Thee all my hopes for salvation

;This doesn't mean Mary Saves him by atoning for him but by following her example he has a certitude of his salvation based on following her example of obedience.

accept me as thy servant and shelter me under thy mantle, thou who art the Mother of mercy.

asking her to be his mentor in following Jesus Christ.

And since thou art so powerful with God,

Note the phrase Powerful with God. Not Powerful like God. Or in your own power. The idea her is that due to her special role as queen mother that like the wedding at Cana Jesus will listen to her request.

deliver me from all temptations, or at least obtain for me the strength to overcome them until death.

Notice the term obtain for me. Ie to ask God.Not from her ability.

From Thee I implore a true love for Jesus Christ.

This is the actual goal of the prayer to get a true love for Jesus Christ.

Through Thee I hope to die a holy death

The intent is by following her in her obedience to God

My dear Mother, by the love thou bearest to Almighty God, I pray Thee to assist me always, but most of all at the last moment of my life. Forsake me not then, until thou shalt see me safe in heaven, there to bless Thee and sing of thy mercies through all eternity. Such is my hope. Amen.

And the rest is just re-itteration of what I already said. That is the idea of this prayer. I've never prayed this prayer and there is no requirement to pray this pray and Liguori had an intense devotion to Mary but this isn't the same level of devotion of all Catholics

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Im wondering, if you have to continue to interpert wath the RCC is saying, is that not in itself wrong directed? You have a whole lot of people in the world who have accepted Mary as a goddess (including many clergy). I see very little correction from anyone of authority. Seriously does Pope Rat zinger get on his thrown & proclaim, "OK all you Roman Catholics, Im telling you now that Mary is NOT a Goddess so beginning now start directing all prayer to the 3 Persons of the Trinity....& STOP YOUR HERETICAL WAYS"!

 

[Matt Black]

I've heard a Catholic priest say something very similar in his sermon (on the Feast of the Assumption, ironically!).

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Im wondering, if you have to continue to interpert wath the RCC is saying, is that not in itself wrong directed? You have a whole lot of people in the world who have accepted Mary as a goddess (including many clergy). I see very little correction from anyone of authority. Seriously does Pope Rat zinger get on his thrown & proclaim, "OK all you Roman Catholics, Im telling you now that Mary is NOT a Goddess so beginning now start directing all prayer to the 3 Persons of the Trinity....& STOP YOUR HERETICAL WAYS"!

I personally think that there are Catholics that go overboard on the veneration of Mary certainly. I think a big step would be to properly educate Catholics on what they actually believe which is happening more slowly than I would like.

 

[OldRegular]

Catholics aren't saying Mary created the divine nature of Christ but that Christ's divine nature was in union with Christ's human nature at the conception of Jesus Christ that she held within her womb the fulness of Christ which includes both Natures

Roman Catholicism, by asserting that Mary is the Mother of God are teaching that:

1. she is divine

2. she is the queen of the universe

3. participated in Christ’s suffering for mankind

4. she is Co-redemptrix according to Pope Pius XI

5. she is our Life, our Help, our Advocate, our Guardian, our Mediatress, our Salvation, and the Hope of Sinners, according to the RC saint Alphonsus Mary de Liguori

6. she is the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race according to St. Irenaeus and confirmed by Vatican II

7. she is Most Holy Virgin Immaculate, my Mother Mary, to Thee who art the Mother of my Lord, the Queen of the universe, the advocate, the hope, the refuge of sinners according to St. Alphonsus de Liguori

What more evidence do you need to demonstrate that Roman Catholicism elevates the human Mary to a position greater than the Divine nature of Jesus Christ!

you are attesting that Jesus while in the womb only had one nature which was human.

I have never said that while Jesus Christ was in the womb of Mary He had only a human nature. If you can produce that statement by me then do so. Otherwise admit that you are deliberately lying!

 

[OldRegular]

If you think Catholics are teaching that Mary created Christ's divine nature then you are wrong.

Their original intent may have been to demonstrate that there were two distinct natures in the person of Jesus Christ as Chalcedon says. However, history and the many quotes that have been presented here, shows that because of the titles given to Mary, the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ, she occupies the position of redeemer in the minds of Roman Catholics. The pope and the Teaching Magisterium have done nothing to correct this heresy but have encouraged it. And that is a fact!

Catholics are teaching that the divine nature isn't seperated from Jesus Christ's human nature in the womb.

It appears they are getting something right!

 

[OldRegular]

Original post by OldRegular
Through the body of Mary God brought forth His Son into the world. That is true and that is all that can be said of Mary. To call her the Mother of God is heretical.

It is not be cause it afirms the dual nature of Christ.

Nonsense, utter nonsense! Scripture affirms the dual nature of Jesus Christ! But of course in Roman Catholicism the Pope and the Teaching Magisterium trump Scripture. Isn't that the truth?

 

[OldRegular]

Or do you like sinning so much that you don't ask for help to avoid sin?

That is a personal attack and demonstrates that you are unable to defend the heretical views of Roman Catholicism regarding Mary, the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ!

 

[OldRegular]

Mary was not a created being.

Yes they are but that doesn't change the fact that the 2nd person of the Trinity was incarnate through the chosen created being Mary bringing his eternal nature and connecting it to humanity at the incarnation.

More nonsense! Mary was not a created being. She was conceived through the sexual union of her human mother and human father. Otherwise a host of Scripture starting with Genesis 3:15 would have to be thrown out. But again the pope and the Teaching Magisterium do that routinely do they not?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I've heard a Catholic priest say something very similar in his sermon (on the Feast of the Assumption, ironically!).

Thats a refreshing beginning point but lets see Bishops, Cardinals & the Ratzinger guy say it, print it, teach it, live it! "Papal Bull" kinda stuff.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is a personal attack and demonstrates that you are unable to defend the heretical views of Roman Catholicism regarding Mary, the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ!

Oh come on OR....If you get on your high horse instead of debating this, you will never see change & resolve. What is your desire.... to get to the truth or to get insulted? I personally have many generations of family who have been catholic. I would like to see change exacted & truth proclaimed.

 

[DHK]

At no point in that prayer do I find that it calls her God. But it is a request for prayers from her to assist Ligiori from commiting sins. Don't you ask people to pray for you to keep you from sin? Or do you like sinning so much that you don't ask for help to avoid sin?

This lame argument is used over and over again but it doesn't make any sense. It is one of the poorest defenses that you can offer.
First, we ask others to pray FOR us. That is true.
However, you will never find us on our knees in front of our pastor or in front of any other person praying to our pastor or any other person, worshiping that person and calling that "requesting" prayer. Your argument is deceitful. Your analogy is wrong.

We do not worship others as you worship Mary. And believe me it is worship. All prayer is worship. Worship belongs only to God, and that is where you have made Mary a god, an idol. Dulia is worship. You can't split dulia from latria and say they are two different things. They are not. It is just a convenient way of making a dichotomy between the word "worship." All worship belongs to God. You address your requests to Mary in your worship and idolatry of her. You break the Ten Commandments in doing so. That is why they were originally restated, isn't it?

Dulia is veneration. Veneration is worship.
Veneration:

venerate

1620s, from L. veneratus, pp. of venerari "to reverence, worship"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venerate

It comes from a Latin word that means "worship."
To pray is to worship. It is a form of worship. All prayer is worship. All veneration is worship. The worship you give to Mary you rob and take away from God, thus making Mary another god. This is idolatry.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That is a personal attack and demonstrates that you are unable to defend the heretical views of Roman Catholicism regarding Mary, the mother of the human nature of Jesus Christ!

Its not a personal attack. Funny that you didn't put it into context because I asked two questions 1) don't you have people pray for you to stay out of sin or 2) do you not have people pray to help you avoid sin because you like sin? Clearly the question was rhetorical showing that the options provided you allows within your belief system that someone other than you can pray for you to avoid sin providing the only alternative of not having someone pray for you as to not avoid sinning. So no it was not an assault on your character. At no time did I even suggest you prefer sin. This type of questioning is comon while debating. You may say its leading and you would have a point. But it is not aimed at being an insult.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Nonsense, utter nonsense! Scripture affirms the dual nature of Jesus Christ! But of course in Roman Catholicism the Pope and the Teaching Magisterium trump Scripture. Isn't that the truth?

Nope Scripture and Tradition do not trump each other.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

More nonsense! Mary was not a created being. She was conceived through the sexual union of her human mother and human father. Otherwise a host of Scripture starting with Genesis 3:15 would have to be thrown out. But again the pope and the Teaching Magisterium do that routinely do they not?

You Old Regular are a created being. I am a created being. Everyone on earth is a created being. That is not nonsense. who formed me in my mothers womb? Chance sperm from my Father? No. The Lord God formed me in my mothers womb. Unless (another rhetorical question should you think this is an insult) you believe that Chance is greater than God? Do you?