10 myths surrounding Calvinism

[thatbrian]

Now, the 'world' in John 3:16 isn't everyone who has ever been born, but rather, the kosmos, the encompassing of the earth. God's loves is encompassing the world...the kosmos but not every human being that will have ever existed, imo....but with further study, I may change, but this is where I am at at this time...

In context, John 3:16 is talking about people, because of the "whosoever believes. . . have eternal life.

The end result of his love is eternal life to those who believe, not to the cosmos.

Having said that, I do understand that Christ's work accomplished more than just personal salvation.

 

[convicted1]

Very nice.

The Archangel

So, what is your stance on God having a 'general' love for the non-elect, Brother?

 

[convicted1]

In context, John 3:16 is talking about people, because of the "whosoever believes. . . have eternal life.

The end result of his love is eternal life to those who believe, not to the cosmos.

Having said that, I do understand that Christ's work accomplished more than just personal salvation.

What I mean by using the word 'kosmos' is that it means the globe, the earth, not necessarily 'each and every individual that ever lived'. God's loves goes worldwide, but only lodges upon His sheep...


Does this 'unmuddy' the H2O??

 

[robustheologian]

I must say, as a Calvinist, I do believe in Particular Redemption (Limited Atonement). Christ died to save everyone in one sense, and only some in another (1 Tim. 4:10).

Having said that, I do understand that Christ's work accomplished more than just personal salvation.

Exactly. All are not saved from hell but Christ did save the world in a sense.

 

[The Archangel]

So, what is your stance on God having a 'general' love for the non-elect, Brother?

It's a good question with a complex answer. Biblically speaking, it cannot be said that God "hates the sin but loves the sinner."

We must remember, though, that God's hatred of sinners is not at all capricious. His hatred isn't emotional. His hatred is His settled disposition against all things sinful and all sinful persons.

The only way that God can "love the sinner and hate the sin" is in dealing with Christians through the Cross of Christ. It is in the Cross that God demonstrates His love for His elect and His hatred of their sin.

Nevertheless, even towards the unbelieving people, He demonstrates some type of love as He provides for them through common grace. After all, "he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45 ESV)

Now, the reason that we (as once-condemned and now redeemed sinners) cannot hate sinners is that we are--fallen as we are--capricious (where God is not), and we have no right to hate an unbelieving person because we did not ultimately make ourselves believers. It's a case of "there, but for the grace of God go I."

Loving our enemies is not simply for the purposes of imitating God, per se. Rather, it's for the purposes of attracting them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are called to love and pray for our enemies--in imitation of God--because that is what He did for us who are believers. As the scripture says, "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8 ESV)

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[thatbrian]

Part of the "God Hates" issue remains unresolved here because it's a both and, not an either or.

God hates sin (and sinners) because he is perfectly just. Sin and sinners destroy what he created and loves.

If you, as a parent, watch your twenty year old son who is addicted to heroine wreck his life and ruin everything around him - you hate. You hate the heroine; you hate the dealer, and at some point, you even hate your son. You hate what he has done to the family. You hate how he has wasted opportunities. BUT . . you LOVE your son, at the very same time.

God is mercy AND justice. He hates sin, and he loves mercy. These things are only reconciled at the cross where is he true to both his justice and his mercy.

God hates sinners, and God loves sinners.

No one who has ever loved has also not hated.

 

[robustheologian]

It's a good question with a complex answer. Biblically speaking, it cannot be said that God "hates the sin but loves the sinner."

We must remember, though, that God's hatred of sinners is not at all capricious. His hatred isn't emotional. His hatred is His settled disposition against all things sinful and all sinful persons.

The only way that God can "love the sinner and hate the sin" is in dealing with Christians through the Cross of Christ. It is in the Cross that God demonstrates His love for His elect and His hatred of their sin.

Nevertheless, even towards the unbelieving people, He demonstrates some type of love as He provides for them through common grace. After all, "he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45 ESV)

Now, the reason that we (as once-condemned and now redeemed sinners) cannot hate sinners is that we are--fallen as we are--capricious (where God is not), and we have no right to hate an unbelieving person because we did not ultimately make ourselves believers. It's a case of "there, but for the grace of God go I."

Loving our enemies is not simply for the purposes of imitating God, per se. Rather, it's for the purposes of attracting them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are called to love and pray for our enemies--in imitation of God--because that is what He did for us who are believers. As the scripture says, "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8 ESV)

Blessings,

The Archangel

This guy definitely has it. It could not have been said any better.

 

[robustheologian]

Part of the "God Hates" issue remains unresolved here because it's a both and, not an either or.

God hates sin (and sinners) because he is perfectly just. Sin and sinners destroy what he created and loves.

If you, as a parent, watch your twenty year old son who is addicted to heroine wreck his life and ruin everything around him - you hate. You hate the heroine; you hate the dealer, and at some point, you even hate your son. You hate what he has done to the family. You hate how he has wasted opportunities. BUT . . you LOVE your son, at the very same time.

God is mercy AND justice. He hates sin, and he loves mercy. These things are only reconciled at the cross where is he true to both his justice and his mercy.

God hates sinners, and God loves sinners.

No one who has ever loved has also not hated.

I think me and you are on the exact same page.

 

[convicted1]

This guy definitely has it. It could not have been said any better.

If you 'hang' around Brother AA long enough, you'll learn a whole lot...

 

[The Archangel]

What I mean by using the word 'kosmos' is that it means the globe, the earth, not necessarily 'each and every individual that ever lived'. God's loves goes worldwide, but only lodges upon His sheep...


Does this 'unmuddy' the H2O??

There is context to John's usage of "world." Considering Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus (who is a teacher of Israel) and the Jews of Jesus' day were VERY nationalistic (think, perhaps, racist) against all persons Gentile, it is very likely that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that the Son--the long-awaited Messiah--isn't just for Jews. Instead, the Messiah, Jewish though He may be, is for the entire world (ie. Jews AND Gentiles).

The Archangel

 

[thatbrian]

What I mean by using the word 'kosmos' is that it means the globe, the earth, not necessarily 'each and every individual that ever lived'. God's loves goes worldwide, but only lodges upon His sheep...


Does this 'unmuddy' the H2O??

I think I understand what you mean, but I don't think that John 3:16 makes sense if it's speaking in that way.

God loved people in this manner: He gave his only son that whoever. . . shall not perish but have eternal live.

God loved the globe/cosmos in this manner: He gave his only son that whoever. . . shall not perish but have eternal live.

Whosoever seems to be referring to people in a pretty specific way, not to an inanimate globe.

 

[convicted1]

There is context to John's usage of "world." Considering Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus (who is a teacher of Israel) and the Jews of Jesus' day were VERY nationalistic (think, perhaps, racist) against all persons Gentile, it is very likely that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that the Son--the long-awaited Messiah--isn't just for Jews. Instead, the Messiah, Jewish though He may be, is for the entire world (ie. Jews AND Gentiles).

The Archangel

Can't say I disagree with you here....that fulfilled this, imo...


Ezekiel 37:16-18 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

"And thou, son of man, take to thee one stick, and write on it, For Judah, and for the sons of Israel, his companions; and take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and all the house of Israel, his companions, and bring them near one unto another, to thee, for one stick, and they have become one in thy hand. `And when sons of thy people speak unto thee, saying, Dost thou not declare to us what these [are] to thee?"

 

[robustheologian]

There is context to John's usage of "world." Considering Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus (who is a teacher of Israel) and the Jews of Jesus' day were VERY nationalistic (think, perhaps, racist) against all persons Gentile, it is very likely that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that the Son--the long-awaited Messiah--isn't just for Jews. Instead, the Messiah, Jewish though He may be, is for the entire world (ie. Jews AND Gentiles).

The Archangel

Now honestly, I've held to that view for a LONG time and it does hold a lot of weight. I began to look at it differently though in light of there being some universal results of Christ's atonement.

 

[thatbrian]

I must say, as a Calvinist, I do believe in Particular Redemption (Limited Atonement). Christ died to save everyone in one sense, and only some in another (1 Tim. 4:10).



Exactly. All are not saved from hell but Christ did save the world in a sense.

Yes. His redemption is larger than most of us talk or think about. We are mostly concerned with our salvation, but more happened of the cross than that, but this thread is already severely derailed, so I'll save that for another time.

 

[robustheologian]

Yes. His redemption is larger than most of us talk or think about. We are mostly concerned with our salvation, but more happened of the cross than that, but this thread is already severely derailed, so I'll save that for another time.

Yeah...I do count the destruction of nationalistic boundaries as one of those universal benefits though.

 

[convicted1]

I think I understand what you mean, but I don't think that John 3:16 makes sense if it's speaking in that way.

God loved people in this manner: He gave his only son that whoever. . . shall not perish but have eternal live.

God loved the globe/cosmos in this manner: He gave his only son that whoever. . . shall not perish but have eternal live.

Whosoever seems to be referring to people in a pretty specific way, not to an inanimate globe.

God has had sheep all over this world. During the writing of the bible, the focus was mainly on the Jews and the land called Israel. Yet, there were a smattering of gentiles grafted in such as Ruth and Rahab, who readily come to mind. But the focal point of the scriptures focused mainly on one part of the world, one part of the kosmos. By Christ's atoning work(s) on the cross, the gospel was then able to be spread throughout all ends of the earth by missionary work. God so loved the world....the kosmos that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes(now, who are the ones who truly believe? Is it the non-elect? Is it the elect of God? I'll allow you to answer these for yourself) on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. Again, who are they who will have everlasting life? The non-elect? The elect of God? I'll allow you to answer these for yourself...

 

[thatbrian]

It's a good question with a complex answer. Biblically speaking, it cannot be said that God "hates the sin but loves the sinner."

We must remember, though, that God's hatred of sinners is not at all capricious. His hatred isn't emotional. His hatred is His settled disposition against all things sinful and all sinful persons.

The only way that God can "love the sinner and hate the sin" is in dealing with Christians through the Cross of Christ. It is in the Cross that God demonstrates His love for His elect and His hatred of their sin.

Nevertheless, even towards the unbelieving people, He demonstrates some type of love as He provides for them through common grace. After all, "he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45 ESV)

Now, the reason that we (as once-condemned and now redeemed sinners) cannot hate sinners is that we are--fallen as we are--capricious (where God is not), and we have no right to hate an unbelieving person because we did not ultimately make ourselves believers. It's a case of "there, but for the grace of God go I."

Loving our enemies is not simply for the purposes of imitating God, per se. Rather, it's for the purposes of attracting them to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We are called to love and pray for our enemies--in imitation of God--because that is what He did for us who are believers. As the scripture says, "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8 ESV)

Blessings,

The Archangel

Nice. Well put.

 

[thatbrian]

God has had sheep all over this world. During the writing of the bible, the focus was mainly on the Jews and the land called Israel. Yet, there were a smattering of gentiles grafted in such as Ruth and Rahab, who readily come to mind. But the focal point of the scriptures focused mainly on one part of the world, one part of the kosmos. By Christ's atoning work(s) on the cross, the gospel was then able to be spread throughout all ends of the earth by missionary work. God so loved the world....the kosmos that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes(now, who are the ones who truly believe? Is it the non-elect? Is it the elect of God? I'll allow you to answer these for yourself) on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. Again, who are they who will have everlasting life? The non-elect? The elect of God? I'll allow you to answer these for yourself...

Gotcha, and I agree with that; however, I also think there is more to it. I see God having a general love for all people.

 

[convicted1]

God has had sheep all over this world. During the writing of the bible, the focus was mainly on the Jews and the land called Israel. Yet, there were a smattering of gentiles grafted in such as Ruth and Rahab, who readily come to mind. But the focal point of the scriptures focused mainly on one part of the world, one part of the kosmos. By Christ's atoning work(s) on the cross, the gospel was then able to be spread throughout all ends of the earth by missionary work. God so loved the world....the kosmos that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes(now, who are the ones who truly believe? Is it the non-elect? Is it the elect of God? I'll allow you to answer these for yourself) on Him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. Again, who are they who will have everlasting life? The non-elect? The elect of God? I'll allow you to answer these for yourself...

To add an addendum to this post....

John 12:19 (YLT)
--"the Pharisees, therefore, said among themselves, `Ye see that ye do not gain anything, lo, the world did go after him."


Did the 'world', the kosmos, follow after Him, or was it those who were there surrounding Him.


"World" doesn't mean 'each and every person who ever lived', but the earth, the orb, the globe, as a whole entity....

 

[convicted1]

Gotcha, and I agree with that; however, I also think there is more to it. I see God having a general love for all people.

God deals with His creation via covenants, correct? What covenant does He have with the wicked?