Dave G
Well-Known Member
We shouldn't need Gill to tell us, as believers, how to understand God's word, Alan.
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2 Cor. 5:18-19
- Thread starter Quantrill
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1.) The text actually says God is reconciling the world to Himself. So that refers to an ongoing process. God is reconciling the world (humankind) to Himself, one sinner at a time. Therefore the "us" (verse 18) refers to those God has already placed into the body of Christ, thus a done dead of reconciliation.
2.) Referring to those reconciled, those placed in Christ already, He removed their sin burden, what God had held against them as a consequence of their sins, by the washing of regeneration, also called the circumcision of Christ, because Christ's sacrifice, the shedding of His blood, provides the justification for the forgiveness of their sins.
An important additional point of the passage is assigning us (those reconciled already) the ministry of reconciliation, begging the lost to be reconciled to God through belief in our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
We shouldn't need Gill to tell us, as believers, how to understand God's word, Alan.
The Divine Interpretations that Glorify God is how to understand God's Word.
In "God So Loved the world....", the word, 'world' DOES NOT MEAN EVERYONE in THE WORLD, for God to Be Glorified.
The ONE Divine Interpretation is that by comparing those Scriptures mentioned, we KNOW that the word, 'world', DOES NOT MEAN, 'EVERYONE'.
No more than we can combine, "For God So Loved the world" WITH "love not the world".
The word, 'world' in John 3:16 &
2 Cor. 5:19 expresses the Gentiles, as well as, the Jews.
IT MEANS NOTHING ELSE.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
atpollard
Well-Known Member
[2 Corinthians 5:18-19]
[KJV] 18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[NKJV] 18 Now all things [are] of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
[NIV] 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
[NASB] 18 Now all [these] things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Verb tense.
Hey Alan, you have helped me in the past and you are really smart but I think you need a new bible.
Yours does not have 1 Timothy 4:10:
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour
of all men,
specially of those that believe.
and 1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation
for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
Folks do you believe this poster is really of understanding those born anew have been past tense reconciled, but God is still reconciling the world (humankind) one sinner at a time at the present and until the end comes.
I'll answer you if you agree to be civil, Quantrill.
My decision to put you on ignore was made because I sincerely have no wish to make a fight of things, and it appears that you do.
I am also willing to be mistaken about this, but that was my impression based on our interactions in earlier threads.
With all due respect,
I'm not here to argue with you, but only to present what I see in God's word and to let the chips fall where they may.
If you believe that we can have a discussion about the Scriptures without resorting to hard feelings and what comes as a natural result of that, then I'll gladly take you off "ignore".
Truth be told, I would much rather be reconciled to you and have a friendly discussion than to keep you on "ignore" to avoid any misunderstandiings.
See post # 15.
To me, you still have a contradiction that must be addressed...
How can the Lord decide to forego imputing trespasses, and then turn around and re-introduce them at the Judgement?
If "world" in verse 19 means every single man, woman and child that ever lived ( instead of the "us" in verse 18 ), then to me, there is a massive contradiction that results in God casting people into Hell that are not only reconciled to Him, but are indeed guiltless.
The language states that they were reconciled...not will be.
It also stated that their sins were not imputed to them...not will not be.
In other words, it states a done deal, not a "potential".
Agree or disagree?
I certainly agree to be civil. But sometimes these debates turn into a dogfight. It is the nature of debate. I do not want to create a fight, but neither do I back down from a fight.
I am quite willing to let the chips fall where they may. I, however, am not willing to promise anything for you to take me off ignore. That is your decision. I will say this, I don't place anyone on ignore. Why should I? Am I afraid what they have to say? Am I irritated at what they say? These things should cause me to look deeper into what is being addressed. Not to ignore it.
I do not believe I have any contradiction. Did you read post #(11)? Do you recognize the difference between sin and trespass? And, I never said God reintroduces those trespasses not imputed, later at judgement. That which was imputed to Adam's race, sin, still abides in every son of Adam irregardless of God not imputing their particular sins. God did not impute their individual sins. It doesn't say God imputed righteousness to them.
The sacrifice of Christ reconciled the world to God. It didn't save the world to God. God moved toward mankind in love, in reconciling them to Himself. Christ bare the sins of the world. God is not your enemy. God is for you. Your sins have been placed on One, Jesus Christ, The Saviour. Now, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20)
But, most will not. Thus they don't come to Christ. But, as you pointed out, their individual sins are not imputed to them. True. But Adams sin is imputed to them. They are guilty in Adam. The perfect example is given in (Rom. 5:13-14). Sin is not imputed where there is no law. (5:13) One would naturally think then that God cannot send them to hell. Wrong. Why?
(Rom. 5:14) "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses". Those alive between Adam and Moses were not under law. Thus their individual sins were not imputed to them. Doesn't matter. They still died because of Adam's sin. They were guilty. And unless faith toward God was present in them, they would be judged and gone to hell.
I agree with your statement that it was a 'done deal' not a potential.
Quantrill
No, it says God reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ. (2 Cor. 5:18) That is not a process. If that is a process, then God will fail as the world will not be saved. (5:19)
You say 'one sinner at a time'. That does not constitute the world. Are you comfortable with God failing in His reconciling the world to Himself? Because the world did, and does reject Jesus Christ.
Quantrill
Can you not read? Please address what I said. Did you read "reconciled the world" or reconciling the world. Do you read reconciled us or reconciling us. Good golly miss molly
atpollard
Well-Known Member
... but "this poster" knows a PAST TENSE verb when he sees one (like in 2 Corinthians 5:18-19)
Once Calvinist after another avoids the obvious truth, God is reconciling the world, and has reconciled some of the world, those who have been placed into the body of Christ.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Van,
This has nothing to do with John Calvin...
We're talking about Scripture and what the words on the page actually say.
As for the truth, as you see it:
Sometimes what you see as "obvious", isn't to someone else.
Sometimes what I see as "obvious", is not...again, to someone who does not see it as obvious.
IMO, that's why these discussions keep happening.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
SGO,
Take a look at Psalms 107.
noun
noun: saviour; plural noun: saviours; noun: savior; plural noun: saviors
" a person who saves someone or something (especially a country or cause) from danger, and who is regarded with the veneration of a religious figure."
"Saviour" is also "Deliverer" in the temporal, earthly sense.
I did address what you said. As I said, 'reconciliation' is not a process. It is accomplished through the sacrificial death and shedding of blood by Christ. See again (Lev. 8:15).
Your confusing two actions. One is from God. One is from the person. God has reconciled the world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:18) So, 'be ye reconciled to God'. (5:20) The one from God is done at the Cross. The one from the individual is done at the point of belief and salvation.
You mistakenly place God's reconciliation of the world at the point of belief of the individual. God didn't wait for that. That would never have happened if He did not move first. (Rom. 5:10) " For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
You were reconciled when you were an enemy to God. The world was reconciled though it be an enemy to God.
Quantrill
SGO,
Take a look at Psalms 107.
noun
noun: saviour; plural noun: saviours; noun: savior; plural noun: saviors
" a person who saves someone or something (especially a country or cause) from danger, and who is regarded with the veneration of a religious figure."
"Saviour" is also "Deliverer" in the temporal, earthly sense.
I don't get your point although it was a blessing to read the Psalm.
"Saviour" is also "Deliverer" in the temporal, earthly sense.
You say I'm only saved temporally?
I don't have real long to go before my salvation is out then. Nice knowing you.
Isn't that Psalm also talking about eternal salvation in a figurative sense?
Like what Paul was implying in Romans 15:4?
Van,
This has nothing to do with John Calvin...
We're talking about Scripture and what the words on the page actually say.
As for the truth, as you see it:
Sometimes what you see as "obvious", isn't to someone else.
Sometimes what I see as "obvious", is not...again, to someone who does not see it as obvious.
IMO, that's why these discussions keep happening.
Equating John Calvin's views with Calvinism is bogus.
Why do posters claim 2 Corinthians 5:19 says God reconciled the world? Just read it folks, God is reconciling the world. Here is the bogus claim, left unsaid: God has reconciled the Elect. But do they put this out in print? Nope, they employ double speak.
But the verse actually means God is reconciling humankind. Every individual is part of humankind, part of the world, and so when God puts an individual spiritually into the body of Christ, God is reconciling the world.
Do I put the point of reconciliation at the point of belief? Nope. Then when? When God places an individual into the Christ spiritually, where they undergo the washing of regeneration, also called the circumcision of Christ.
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Posters claim God reconciled the world, because Scripture says God reconciled the world. (2 Cor. 5:19) "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself"
I never said God reconciled just the elect. Though the elect would be involved as God reconciled the world.
Indeed, it means God reconciled all of mankind to himself.
When the individual is placed into the body of Christ, that is the individual being reconciled to God. As I said before, you are confusing Gods work with that of the individual. (2 Cor. 5:19-20) Read again post #(36).
Yup, you do put reconciliation at the point of belief. The individual is not placed into Christ until that act of belief.
Quantrill
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