2 Cor. 5:18-19

[Dave G]

So, by the death and blood of Christ, God reconciled the world to Himself. (2 Cor. 5:18-19) (Rom. 5:10) He can justly not impute the trespasses of the world to them. Because He can impute them to Christ. God removed that which was a contention between man and God. Therefore man could now come to God. Man could reconcile himself to God by coming to Christ. Which is why Paul said, now, 'be ye reconciled to God'.

I see your point, and confess, once again, to once seeing it as you do...
Though I no longer do.

When God reconciled the world to Himself, it doesn't mean the world is saved. It means the world can be saved as God removed that which blocked the way. It means God does not impute mans trespasses to him, which blocked the way.

Again, I once saw it as you appear to.
But then over the next few years, I began to see something else...

The ramifications of God deciding not to impute all of mankind's trespasses ( sins ) to them...
If their trespasses are not imputed to them per the passage you seem to think that it does,
Then the question arises...

When are they imputed to them for judgment?

God specifically says that the dead will be judged out of the books ( Revelation 20:11-15 ) based on their works ( trespasses ).
Therefore, God must impute ( credit ) people with trespasses, or He cannot judge them.

 

[atpollard]

Folks, pay no attention to Calvinists who deny God's sovereignty in Election for Salvation.

I am familiar with accusations of RADICAL Sovereignty of God leveled against hyper-Calvinism, but I have never encountered an accusation that Calvinists deny God’s sovereignty in Election before.

The whole point of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (a cornerstone of the Doctrines of Grace that define ‘Calvinism’) is that God chooses men to be saved based on NOTHING inherent in the individual chosen, but completely upon the sovereign right of God, as God, to choose one person for reasons of “the pleasure of His will”.

It does not get more monergistic and pro-soverignty of God than Calvinism without denying scripture. (Like fatalism and Hypercalvinism).

 

[Dave G]

God, when He reconciled the world to Himself, didn't make the world His friend.

Reconcile:

verb
verb: reconcile; 3rd person present: reconciles; past tense: reconciled; past participle: reconciled; gerund or present participle: reconciling
restore friendly relations between.
"she wanted to be reconciled with her father"

cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.
"a landscape in which inner and outer vision were reconciled"

Those who hate God, still hate God.

Agreed.

In their hearts, I see that those that will never be saved still hate God, and therefore they have not been reconciled to Him.
That is how I define it.

But I also see that the elect were reconciled to Him by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:12 ), and that, even when they were enemies in their minds ( Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21 ), they were, nevertheless, the ones who were reconciled in 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
They are the ones whose trespasses were not imputed to them.

Unbelievers ( "non-elect" ) do not have the privilege of having their sins wiped away, only believers ( the elect ) do.

To me, it is inconsistent to have it any other way, because God cannot decide to forego imputing trespasses and still have something legitimate to judge sinners for.

 

[Van]

I am familiar with accusations of RADICAL Sovereignty of God leveled against hyper-Calvinism, but I have never encountered an accusation that Calvinists deny God’s sovereignty in Election before.

The whole point of UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (a cornerstone of the Doctrines of Grace that define ‘Calvinism’) is that God chooses men to be saved based on NOTHING inherent in the individual chosen, but completely upon the sovereign right of God, as God, to choose one person for reasons of “the pleasure of His will”.

It does not get more monergistic and pro-soverignty of God than Calvinism without denying scripture. (Like fatalism and Hypercalvinism).

It would be so simple to stop all these non-denial denials, and say God's choice to credit faith as righteousness is His sovereign choice, rather than claim our faith "causes" God to pick based on emotion. Such hogwash is repugnant, false and evil.

 

[Van]

Well...since I don't ridicule God's Sovereign election or call it emotionally based, you can actually quote what I said.

"You, on the other hand, teach human faith, which causes God to either declare it righteous or unrighteous, depending on God's feelings about you on that day.

Both are merit-based means of salvation, apart from grace."

I do not retract my statement that you teach human faith causing God to declare the human faith as either righteous or unrighteous. This has been your claim since you joined the BB.

Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24 have claimed for 2000 years that God declares or not an individuals human faith as either righteousness or not. Once again note the Calvinist effort to claim the bible does not teach God credits our faith. They repeat this falsehood non-stop.

 

[Dave G]

You seem to have a conflict with a loving God sending anyone to hell or eternal separation from Him.

Yes, I do.

I see the love of God being manifest to His people in the matter of salvation and the granting of eternal life,
which is to know Him and His Son ( John 17:2-3 ).
I see the kindness and patience of God being extended to the "non-elect" based on the fact that He gives them His goodness which leads them to repentance, but they never will repent ( Romans 2:4-5 ).

And most likely most people, Christians included, would never send anyone to hell. It is too horrible a thought to entertain being in hell forever.

Amen.

There are going to be a lot of 'good people' in hell. And a lot of 'bad people' in heaven. What can we say? It is good that this is God's decision and not ours. It is good that He can make those decisions and not us. It is left to us to know that whatever God did or does, was and is good.

Again, I agree.

 

[Dave G]

Once again note the Calvinist effort to claim the bible does not teach God credits our faith.

Again, I don't know why you call people, "Calvinists" unless you think we get our understanding of the Bible from following the man and his teachings...
That aside, I see this:

God does credit faith as righteousness...
But not for salvation.
Faith is credited as righteousness per Romans 4:5.

But the Bible also says this:

" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:4-7 ).

Therefore, it is not faith that saves us, but His mercy.

By faith we as saved sinners do many things towards God ( Hebrews 11 )...
But faith does not save anyone.
God is no respecter of persons when it comes to what we do to save ourselves;
Eternal life is based on the unmerited favor of God.

There is no merit in salvation whatsoever.

 

[Van]

He does...
But not for salvation.

Quote please?

Around and around the Calvinists dance and weave, claiming this falsehood to support that falsehood, but the house cards falls when God credits our faith as righteousness. Or when Paul speaks as to men of flesh using spiritual milk. Or Christ lays down His life as a ransom for all.

 

[AustinC]

In the Watergate days, your post would be termed a non-denial denial.

Folks, pay no attention to Calvinists who deny God's sovereignty in Election for Salvation.

LOL, Van, did I mis-characterize your teaching on faith? You have not denied what I stated.
You teach that you have an innate faith that either causes God to declare you righteous or unrighteous. Is that not accurate?

 

[Dave G]

Quote please?

See Titus 3:4-7 and read it very carefully, Van.

Around and around the Calvinists dance and weave, claiming this falsehood to support that falsehood, but the house cards falls when God credits our faith as righteousness.

When you're done speaking evil of men, Van, perhaps you'd like to consider the Lord's commands here?

Romans 12.
2 Timothy 2:24-26.
Titus 3:1-3.

Of course I cannot overcome the wicked flesh for you, sir,
but the Spirit that resides in you, as a believer, should be reminding you not to rip people apart...
Shouldn't it?

Therefore, you should be sensitive to the fact that Scripture tells us, in no uncertain terms,

" Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." ( Matthew 7:12 ).

 

[atpollard]

It would be so simple to stop all these non-denial denials, and say God's choice to credit faith as righteousness is His sovereign choice

It would be very easy. It would also be easy to say that God loves everyone and will save everyone.
The problem for ME (personally) is that I do not see scripture teaching either of those things, so I am uncomfortable affirming them.

I will say that God credits faith as righteousness, however I believe that scripture teaches that “faith” is part of the gift from God and not something that originates from within us. From your comments, I cannot say with any confidence that you agree with my view of the origin of faith. So you would say “God's choice to credit faith as righteousness is His sovereign choice” and mean something very different than I would.

Does God credit OUR faith, or does The faith He GAVE US?
If you can say that “God credits the faith that He gave is as righteousness by His own sovereign choice”, then I can agree 100% with you. I suspect that is not what YOU see in scripture, which I can respect, but cannot affirm.

rather than claim our faith "causes" God to pick based on emotion. Such hogwash is repugnant, false and evil.

If the false claims made against your beliefs are the issue, then you should confront them without resorting to your own false claims that sling mud on a large group of people.

I believe that you have previously articulated that the word of God is the source of the faith that you claim grows in us that God accepts as righteousness. That is not an unscriptural position and one worth stating and explaining so that others can understand what you believe and your mockers can be revealed as making true or false claims based on your actual beliefs rather than a parody of your beliefs.

As a Calvinist, I understand your frustration at having what you believe deliberately misrepresented. Really I do. The only defense that I have found is to tell the truth (or to strike back with a tit for tat that benefits no one ... I do that too often myself.)

Good luck being heard.
But you have to talk to be heard.

 

[AustinC]

Reconcile:

verb
verb: reconcile; 3rd person present: reconciles; past tense: reconciled; past participle: reconciled; gerund or present participle: reconciling
restore friendly relations between.
"she wanted to be reconciled with her father"

cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.
"a landscape in which inner and outer vision were reconciled"


Agreed.

In their hearts, I see that those that will never be saved still hate God, and therefore they have not been reconciled to Him.
That is how I define it.

But I also see that the elect were reconciled to Him by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:12 ), and that, even when they were enemies in their minds ( Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21 ), they were, nevertheless, the ones who were reconciled in 2 Corinthians 5:18-19.
They are the ones whose trespasses were not imputed to them.

Unbelievers ( "non-elect" ) do not have the privilege of having their sins wiped away, only believers ( the elect ) do.

To me, it is inconsistent to have it any other way, because God cannot decide to forego imputing trespasses and still have something legitimate to judge sinners for.

How do we ignore verses such as this:

Galatians 1:15-16 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;

How does a passage like this help guide us when reading 2 Cor 5?

 

[Dave G]

How does a passage like this help guide us when reading 2 Cor 5?

I take passages like that and dovetail them in, realizing that only the elect were reconciled to Him.
I see the love of God towards those who were reconciled to Him by the death of His Son.

 

[AustinC]

Quote please?

Around and around the Calvinists dance and weave, claiming this falsehood to support that falsehood, but the house cards falls when God credits our faith as righteousness. Or when Paul speaks as to men of flesh using spiritual milk. Or Christ lays down His life as a ransom for all.

Would you agree that God credits the faith He gave us, in Christ, as a gift, as being righteous?

 

[Van]

LOL, Van, did I mis-characterize your teaching on faith? You have not denied what I stated.
You teach that you have an innate faith that either causes God to declare you righteous or unrighteous. Is that not accurate?

Once again we see the material false statement concerning "innate faith" This is total rubbish. As I said, one falsehood to support another falsehood.
Ask yourselves why Calvinists have removed Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24 from their bibles.
If God is sovereign, and He is, why would Calvinists claim Romans 4 "causes" God to do something, as if salvation depends on the man that will....

Non-stop rubbish is what we get from Calvinism.

 

[Van]

See Titus 3:4-7 and read it very carefully, Van. SNIP

Falsehood on top of falsehood, now Dave G claims, for the umpteenth time, faith is not according to grace, but rather faith is according to works. Utter nonsense smeared over utter nonsense. This is all they have, non-stop rubbish. Remember Romans 4:16?

 

[Van]

SNIP

I will say that God credits faith as righteousness, however I believe that scripture teaches that “faith” is part of the gift from God and not something that originates from within us.
SNIP
.

Right, got it, God instills via irresistible grace His gift of faith into a person, then turns around and credits that very same gift from God faith unalterably instilled as righteousness because it was not initially? The nonsense one must accept to wedge Calvinism into scripture is non-stop.

 

[Van]

Would you agree that God credits the faith He gave us, in Christ, as a gift, as being righteous?

If the gift of faith fiction of Calvinism were true, Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24 would not say God credits our faith for our sake.
His faith, your faith, our faith becomes, using invisible ink, His gifted and instilled via irresistible grace faith, your gifted and instilled via irresistible grace faith and our gifted and instilled with irresistible grace faith. But Calvinism does not add to scripture. Right, got it...

 

[Dave G]

Falsehood on top of falsehood, now Dave G claims, for the umpteenth time, faith is not according to grace, but rather faith is according to works. Utter nonsense smeared over utter nonsense. This is all they have, non-stop rubbish. Remember Romans 4:16?

Van,

Regrettably,
It seems that all you want is to find someone to fight with when you come on this forum.
To me, that is the total opposite of edifying in love, or of even politely disagreeing and telling those you interact with, why you disagree.

Biblically,
There is no profit in defaming and labeling people, and there is no profit in continually attacking others for how they see the Scriptures.
Quite the contrary, it is demeaning and disrespectful.

In other words, you seem to enjoy placing certain people into a position of being inferior to you ( what is known as "emulations", Galatians 5:19-21 ).
If that is what you wish to do, then I will of course refuse to interact with you.

Respectfully,
I'm not personally going to give you any more occasions with which to carry on in your apparent bashing of "Calvinists".
If you feel that you cannot discuss things in a respectful manner and without the rhetoric, then I must place you back on "ignore" and refuse to have anything to do with your posts.

If you should ever change your mind and seek to edify ( or even politely disagree with ) others in a more godly manner,
Please let me know via PM and I will of course, be more than happy to reverse the decision.


I wish you well, sir, and good day to you.

 

[Van]

Van,
SNIP
I wish you well, sir, and good day to you.

On and on, one personal attack after another, avoiding the topic which is God is reconciling the world, one believer at a time by putting the individual into the body of Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness. God has not reconciled the entire world, but He has placed every person eternally saved into Christ. We have the ministry of reconciliation because God is still actively saving the lost.