#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS

Having made that case about lesser servants who actually have interest in personal rewards – Paul then DENIES that he really wants any of those temporal benefits / rewards /

He claims that he values his “boast” higher than getting the earthly perishable temporal benefit from the church. In fact his view of “reward” is to offer the Gospel without charge! That is the only “reward” he mentions for himself in the entire chapter that is apart from the Gospel reward of “Eternal Life”.

Now he will switch to the “Gospel” mission the “Gospel focus” the fact that His preaching of the Gospel of Salvation is such a consuming role that earthly benefit fades. He is under a higher calling

This is key – Paul has just said that his “reward” is to “offer the Gospel without charge”. Paul specifically addresses the less substantive topic of personal reward (apart from eternal life) for preaching the Gospel. It is instructive that Paul specifically points to this issue of “reward” and states that the “reward” he is getting is the reward of not charging for his work as an evangelist!!

This means that those who wish to spin the remainder of the chapter into a “concern for reward” that is apart from the Gospel reward of eternal life – must keep with Paul’s argument that his “reward” is “to offer the Gospel without charge”!! If they do that – then it makes no sense at all to say “I buffet my body and make it my slave lest I charge someone a penny for doing evangelism”. The entire “don’t think of this as the imperishable Gospel reward of eternal life” fails.

At this point Paul jumps fully into the topic of SALVATION! He argues the point of wining the lost. He shows that his focus and goal is fully set on the salvation that is brought through the preaching of the Gospel!

Wining here is “Wining souls for Christ” in the preaching of the Gospel. Preaching the Gospel to others – resulting in their Salvation! In this case to “Win” is to “SAVE”

Paul shows that “To win is to save”! He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them – no mention at all of his seeking “a bit more candy when he gets to heaven”. . He mentions nothing about the temporal rewards in heaven of housing, or candy or toys nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven.

 

When Paul says

He speaks of “The loss of all things” and the goal of “knowing Christ”. In fact he says his goal is to “gain Christ”. More than this – he seeks to “attain to the resurrection from the dead”.

Those who think that “knowing Christ,” and “gaining Christ” and ‘the resurrection of the righteous” are all things “other than salvation” have not thought about the point of Gospel salvation in the complete form it is presented in scripture.

So when we see such direct appeals to the salvific benefits of the Gospel - do you respond with I would hope that you are humble enough to put no faith in yourself........and at least a little in God!?? Do you rework this into a kind of “its all about Paul’s confidence in himself” story? Why not accept it as the faithful view of the saints of God – just as Paul presents it??

If you see yourself needing to “gloss over” the details of Phil 3 or 1Cor 9 and you if you feel the need to respond to them as “inconvenient test” as you divert attention away from these direct challenges to OSAS and towards some less problematic texts - you can begin to see that those other texts are being taken to extremes so place them in favor of OSAS. If we let the text speak in its full detail does it cause you to immediately jump to some other "more comfortable" text?

IF so - it is a sign that you have taken what your comfortable texts do not actually say explicitly and have added "inferences" that were never in those texts to start with.

In the case of these "unpleasant" texts - it is the mere quote of them and the insistence on seeing their details rather than glossing over them that is causes so many to have heart burn.

[ November 25, 2005, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Now comes that “unpleasant section” for many where Paul points out the seriousness of this Gospel pursuit for the goal of saving people -- so that I may by all means save some. as he says.

Paul shows his explicit objective when he “Does all things for the sake of the Gospel”. He SAYS he does all things so that “he may become a fellow partaker of IT – the Gospel”!!

Those who want to limit this discussion to “the amount of candy you get in heaven” are missing the entire point. Paul argues for the very basic issue of “participating IN THE GOSPEL”. Not to participate in the ONE Gospel of our salvation – is to be lost brothers and sisters.

It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to live AND to preach. Indeed what is the point of preaching if he is not also PARTAKING of the benefits of the Gospel – eternal life.

Paul shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. Paul argues that ALL saints are pursuing the same eternal imperishable reward in their striving – in their self-discipline. Paul says “but WE do it to receive an IMPERISHABLE objective.


He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)

So now in this “fellow partaker of the Gospel” model for ALL that Paul is offering (in the form of his own life example) he shows how it works. He shows the perspective of the saint, the attitude, the focus the Olympic ALL for the Gospel focus that is NEEDED. IN fact he argues that it is critical EVEN for an Apostle for even in this most exaulted case HE is at risk “LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified” from that very Gospel!

How instructive!

Yet how fervently ignored by those who find this to be an “unpleasant” section of scripture!

Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.

Or do you read vs 23-27 and respond with

And so when Paul says

Do you respond with

"Are you saved by your efforts of paying close attention, persevering and taking pains with those disciplines?"

Will your response to each of these displeasing texts be simply to challenge them and show how your view of "other texts" don't allow these unpleasant texts to exist??

 

I asked Bob Ryan what he is doing in order to stay saved, and Janosik wonders what faith is.

Paul said this:

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and Him crucified." 1 Cor. 2:1-2

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;" 1 Cor. 1:23

That is faith. Putting your trust and faith in believing the Scriptural account of His finished work on the cross.

And God does the rest as well. Start to finish.

Phil. 1:6

 

Here is what the NT authors say WE DO -- in "Taking pains in them" and "be absorved with this" and "be careful" stay focused etc...

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.


"Take pains with these things" -- why?

Paul shows himself doing this very thing “in order that I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ”

This shows forgiveness of former sins in the purification of justification and sanctification. It does not show a cart blanch covering for all future sins. (We just saw this in James 5 above)

These texts also do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

And the prize is explicitly stated by Paul “ gain Christ” and “attain to the resurrection from the dead” – not that I have already obtained it.

How can anyone read these clear texts and water them down to “that is just diligent effort for effort’s sake not to actually attain or gain or retain or hold on to anything”??

How can anyone read these texts (and those that will follow) and not see the self-discipline Paul speaks of "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST..."

When paul says to Timothy "TAKE PAINS with these things" what does HE SAY is the GOAL of those pains Jack?

In Christ,

Bob

 

15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

 

quote:
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JackRUS said --
I asked Bob Ryan what he is doing in order to stay saved,

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Paul shows his explicit objective when he “Does all things for the sake of the Gospel”. He SAYS he does all things so that “he may become a fellow partaker of IT – the Gospel”!!

Those who want to limit this discussion to “the amount of candy you get in heaven” are missing the entire point. Paul argues for the very basic issue of “participating IN THE GOSPEL”. Not to participate in the ONE Gospel of our salvation – is to be lost brothers and sisters.
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The effort to persevere – endure – involves “taking pains” and “being absorbed” with these things. Specifically to walk in the Spirit and by the Spirit to “put to death the deeds of the flesh”.

 

Israel, As a "NATION" was denied the opportunity to "FIRST, preach the gospel" because of "unbelief", no individual/Nation is saved "BEFORE" they "BELIEVE", including "ABRAHAM".

Let me explain something that is very simple,

The "WAGES" of "EVERY SIN" will be "PAID, NO exception, OK??

Jesus took away the "SIN", not the law, it's still in effect.

In dying "ONCE", Jesus paid for the sins of the "WHOLE WORLD", beginning to end.

If you are guilty of ONE SIN, you are guilty of all.

Every jot/title the law requires (death for sin) will be "PAID",

GOD NEVER FORGIVE SIN

Sin is a "DEBT" that is "NEVER FORGIVEN", it will be paid, to the last mite, either by Jesus or the person, but it "WILL BE PAID".

OT Saints made sacrifices according to the law, and their sins were "FORGIVEN",

BUT NOT PAID, as required by the law, (Death)

only when the "DEBT" is "PAID" is the sin then "TAKEN AWAY".

Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,

Behold the Lamb of God, which..TAKETH AWAY.. the sin of the world.

Satan has many people "FOOLED" into believing sin is simply "FORGIVEN" without the "DEBT" being paid.

SO, who is going fulfill the requirments of the law by "DYING" to "TAKE AWAY" those sin committed yesterday/today/tomorrow, and that Jesus didn't pay for when He came?????

WHO IS GOING TO "TAKE AWAY" THESE SINS???

What you're "ACTUALLY" saying is that "Sin can be "TAKEN AWAY", through "FORGIVENESS", WITHOUT the requirements of the law being fulfilled and Jesus having to die to pay the "WAGES" of that sin.

It didn't work for the OT saints, and it won't work for the church either.

GOD NEVER FORGIVE SIN, IT'S A DEBT PAID TO THE "LAST MITE",

AND JESUS ISN'T DYING FOR ANYMORE SINS, YOU'RE SAVED FOREVER OR NOT AT ALL.

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place,

having obtained eternal redemption for us.

 

Actually the NASB quote that I gave speaks to assurance not to OSAS. It says nothing about "once you are saved you can never be lost" -- but I am sure there are ways to imagine that is in Romans 8 while being careful to provide no such quote.

My point is that Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" shows the problem clearly.

As Does Romans 11 "graft them in again" -- clearly and in-then-out-then- hope to be in again scenario.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Paul is not talking about a nation of people falling - Paul is himself a Jew. He never states that HE had fallen in the sense that HE is a member of the NATION of ISrael and not he hopes to be grafted in again.

Paul is clear in both Romans 9 and 11 to point out that regardless of the failure of the nation - the individuals stand or fall based on faith.

Romans 11 is clear about the fact that "YOU TOO" only stand by your faith and "You should fear" for "IF God did not spare them neither will He spare YOU". This shows the individual specific nature of the fall.

Furthermore "their return" is also shown to be just as individual and specific as the warning Paul has just given to each of the saints --

"save some of them" is in no way addressing "national salvation".

In Christ,

Bob

 

True. But the benefit for that atoning sacrifice is provided under God's own model of "atonement" not under any other system.

That is also true. God provides forgiveness by satisfying the debt that is owed according to His OWN Law. He provides forgiveness in the only way that UPHOLDS the LAW at the same time it pardons the sinner.

"IF we confess our sins HE IS faithful and just to FORGIVE US OUR SINS AND to cleans us from all unrighteousness" 1John 1:9

God provides forgiveness to US - by first paying the debt as "an atoning sacrifice" and then calling us to enter into the "Atonement process" as defined by BOTH the role of Christ as the Lamb AND the role of Christ as our Heb 8-10 High Priest.

Since Jesus is the full atoning sacrifice for our debt "For our sins and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2 - it remains only for us to enter into that atonement to benefit. If we reject the Gospel then we will ALSO pay for our own debt having disdained the payment ALREADY offered in Christ,

True. Their sins still remained to be paid. Full legal resolution for those sins waited for the cross - even though those saints were fully forgiven and at peace with God - born again saints like Enoch taken to heaven as was Moses and Elijah.

So "real forgiveness" but God was going to have to pay their debt "literally" to uphold the Law. If He had been willing to trash His Law rather than upholding it - He could simply forgive - and never pay the debt owed.

Intead he dies as the "Atoning Sacrifice" 1John 2:2 NIV and in God's Lev 16 model of Atonement the Gospel provides payment WITHIN that model.

We must therefore go to Christ our High Priest for salvation. We must engage in that proceess through the door that He opened for us.

I am saying that God's model does not end with Christ on the Cross. God's model for forgiveness is "Atonment" Lev 16 which require BOTH the work of Christ as LAMB AND the work of Christ as our High Priest (Heb 8-10).

While on earth He did not serve as our High Priest "Heb 8:4 - if He were on earth He would not be a priest AT ALL". Paul makes this "not a priest in His earthly mission" again in Heb 7 where he points out that nothing at all is said about anyone in the tribe of Judah being a priest. IT argues that the heavenly system is not in operation pre-cross while the earthly system is in effect.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You are all correct now just put it all together.

Like this..
Christ died for all sin ? Yes
Through Belief in Christ and acceptance of his forgiveness we are saved ? Yes
Is the belief constant? If not then true salvation was not obtained.
Paul taught that faith was more important that the Law of Moses.
Can we lose faith? Yes
Does that mean we are unsaved or lose salvation? NO
We are human we make mistakes and sin and fall short and through repentance we see Gods grace and mercy and faith is restored.
Christ died once for us. Salvation is a gift from God and gifts from God are Gods to take away not anything that man, worldly, or Satan can do it must be the will of God and its not Gods will that any should perish. So why then or How could salvation be removed it would go against Gods very nature and contridict the Word of God.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

Remember that sin doesn't send you to Hell it's the rejection of Christ that sends us to Hell. Folks if you have a heartfelt belief in Christ then Heaven is your home. If forgiveness is revoked how does that apply to someone that is saved salvation in itself forgives all sin.
Christ blood atones for all sin.
When I stand before God on the day of judgement and give account of my works. Christ blood will cover all my sin because on Feb. 10 2002 I believed. I cant undo that nor can anything else.

When we sin we dont lose salvation.
Because that sin is paid for and bought by the Blood of The Lamb.
Repentance shows humility and recognition that you are out of Gods will. Forgiveness of all your sins happened the moment you accepted Christ as Lord and Savior.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

Lets see if In Matt 18 Christ says "Don't worry about what you do once you have been forgiven because you will not run the risk of being unforgiven no matter what sins you commit".

(Nothing like a little objective Bible test to see IF those things spoken under every wind of doctrine "are so".)

Matthew 18
21 Then Peter came and said to Him, ""Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?''
22 Jesus said to him, ""I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.


Matt 18:23-35 Forgiveness revoked – as opposed to blaming God for not “preserving us”.

Here we see that the Kingdom of Heaven is the context – and the servant “owes” in that eternal reality – a debt that is far greater than he and all his substance could ever repay. He is judged as owing the debt and payment is demanded.

So it is for all of humanity – the law points to the debt owed (Romans 6) the “Wages of Sin is death.” And Rev 20 – 21 tells us that this is in fact the suffering and torment of the 2nd death – eternal.

Though the slave undervalues his own debt and over-values his own ability to “repay” – the Lord has mercy on him anyway and “Forgives the Debt” – full and complete forgiveness in the scenario regarding “the Kingdom of Heaven”. This is key to the Arminian point.

But (as Christ points out in His model prayer of Matt 6) those who Are forgiven are under obligation to forgive others.

Here the case of “the Forgiven” slave is that HE is “unwilling” to show forgiveness to others even though he HAS been forgiven.

Exercising his free-will he is “Unwilling” to give to others that SAME sense of mercy and compassion that HAS been shown him by his Lord.

The Lord does not show any reservation about the full and complete forgiveness that HE gave to His servant.

Here is the direct appeal to the same Point we see Christ making in Matt 6 “Forgive us OUR debts AS WE forgive our debtors” and then adds “For if you do NOT forgive others then…” well you know what He said.

Clearly – “forgiveness revoked” with FULL payment made now – by the slave!
.

Here many shout “OH NO He will NOT!”. They think that “once forgiven ALWAYS forgiven” applies even to those in rebellion. (A good 4-point Calvinist POV by the way).

Here Christ charges that the point is valid for Christians. He argues that WE have been forgiven by our heavenly Father – and that HE will revoke Our forgiveness just as we see in this story and just as Christ claimed in Matt 6 If “we” do not persevere in showing the Same kind regard for forgiving our brothers.

Rather than God blaming Himself for our lack of perseverance or God claiming that HE failed to preserve us – HE charges that WE are under obligation to obey as He directs or be faced with “forgiveness revoked” just as it is really described in this chapter.

 

I dont diagree with you Bob I didnt say not to worry about what you do simple that Christ forgives us of our sin when we ask him to and simple by accepting him we are forgiven. Because when we accept we acknowledge we are sinners and need forgiveness.

See the keyword in romans 11:20 is unbelief they where broke off for there unbelief so how does that apply to believers. This is all meant for unbelievers not believers brother bob your trying to apply these scriptures to those who believe and they can't because we believe. Isreal was the branch that was cut off we have been grafted in those that have faith in Christ. Bob I truley dont see what your trying to say. Your scipture is good and sound but your taking it out of context I recommend that you pray for understanding of Gods Word and how it apply's to believers and unbelievers. The scrpitures you are quoting are refering to Isreal as a nation of unbelievers and us as the new branch of believers. These scriputers are not talking about OSAS.

Matthew 18:22
Jesus is making a point here Bob not a statement. Even if its meant literal that 490 times per individual sin. The point Jesus is making here is to be forgiving. If through my life I lust after a woman 500 times does that mean God will not forgive me of 10 of those?
Even if God didnt forgive me Christ blood has cover those sins. Sin doesnt seperate you from salvation. It seperates you from the will of God.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery