#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
There is no doubt Paul said we can be broken off or cast away. Jesus warned against the same. The question is, what is it from which we are broken off? The answer is, the service of God.

That is a pure form of eisegesis as it does not attempt to show that the subject in Romans 11 is focused on "service" rather than salvation.

Exegesis will show that the topic leading up to the section about the vine - is the subject of salvation.

(I hesitate to post Romans 11 exegesis here as I know many do not like to read long posts).

Let me know if there are those out there that would to actually look at the content of the chapter being referenced in your quote above.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Rev. Lowery:
I agree with mark but Bob does make a point about if we stop believing but then you have to ask if you stop believing did you ever truely believe.

If you never believed then you CAN NOT stop what you never started - and now warning about stopping would be written.

If once you believe you CAN NOT stop believing because God won't let you - then the Arminian view is wrong and no warning would be found in scripture warning against the impossible. No warning about flying easter bunnies.

INSTEAD of those alternate realities what we DO find in scripture (like 2 Tim 2 and 1Tim 1 etc) is the warning against failing to endure, warnings about the danger of unblief (Romans 11)

Warnings that sound like "NEITHER will He spare YOU"...warning like "QUITE RIGHT they were BROKEN OFF for unblief"

So BREAKING OFF is real.

And UNBLIEF is REAL - as the REAL cause of UNBELIEF.

All I can say is I know where I am going and if theres doubt in your mind you better get right.

Those who fail in Matt 7 were also fully convinced in their own minds that they knew where they were going. (This is not to say that you are not going to heaven ... I am just pointing out that self assurance is not a substitute for Bible assurance)

I personal think Paul is hypothetically speaking.

Ahhh the "flying easter bunny" defense.

So When Paul says "Quite right THEY WERE BROKEN off due to UNBELIEF" He is Not REALLY giving a REAL example of saints REALLY broken off of the vine of Christ due to REAL unblief!!

I love it.

And when he "Neither will He spare YOU" -- he is speaking hypothetically of "flying easter bunnies" and saying that WERE you to BECOME a flying easter bunny then God would not spare you either --- but of course you can not ACTUALLY become a flying easter bunny so it is all "hypothetical" brothers and sisters. Go back to sleep! Nothing to worry about here... All is peace and safety... Mean old Paul should not have mixed this hypothetical impossibility in with scripture like that - without telling us...

That "sneaky Paul"!

(I am blaming Paul for everything I do this week. Even on Sabbath).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[JackRUS]

Scripture also says that even if we are not faithful, God is (1 Cor. 1:9; 2 Tim. 2:13). And His gifts are without repentence. (Rom. 11:29)

And I might note that the real context of Gal. 5:4 (falling from grace) is the adding of anything to the Gospel. (See also verse 9) This incidently is exactly what those that believe in losing salvation attenpt to do in order to sustain their salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

#1. There is no such thing as "saved in Satan". The saved experience, the Gospel experience is NEVER described as "turned over to Satan".

In Satan there is ONLY condemnation.

#2. In 1Cor 5:5 we see the soul LOST! We see someone engaging willfully in incest and refusing to repent. Lost! Unbelief! "But FEAR... For neither will He spare you"!! Is absolutely applicable to REAL life people.

Hard as that is to believe.

#3. IN 2Cor 7 Paul shows that SAME person RETURNED as a brand snatch from the fire...

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

James 5
19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Fallen and yet hoping to be “grafted BACK in again” into the vine of Christ!

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

 

[JackRUS]

No Bob. In 1 Cor. 5:5 we see a fellow that is about to lose his physical life. The verse says the "destruction of his flesh."

1 John 5:16-17

 

[BobRyan]

2Cor 7
8For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it--for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while--

9I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.

10For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

11For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

12So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the offender nor for the sake of the one offended, but that your earnestness on our behalf might be made known to you in the sight of God.

13For this reason we have been comforted And besides our comfort, we rejoiced even much more for the joy of Titus, because his spirit has been refreshed by you all.

 

[Me4Him]

Once saved, you are no longer "UNDER THE LAW", and sin is not imputed where there is "NO LAW".

So how can the "LAW" condemn you???

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained

eternal redemption for us.

Jesus doesn't just save from passed sins, but also all future sins as well.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

I agree with you me4him


Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[JackRUS]

I might also add that Paul address those at Corinth as "saints" in the openings of both his epistles.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Salvation issue have been debate, debate, debate all the times. It is endless.

BobRyan is right.

Myself was used believe in security salvation for a long time. Till 2 years ago, I was no longer believe in security salvation, realized Bible teaching us of conditional salvation, these are so overwhelming proofs that we cannot afford to neglect warnings about our salvation.

Whilst myself was securist, I study on Matthew chapter 25. Verse 26-30 disturbed me the mostly. This passage warns us, Christ shall saying to a servant, "You are wicked and slothful(lazy) servant". Then, a slothful servant shall be CAST AWAY into everlasting fire. I have been struggling with scriptures about conditional salvation verses for 3 years. Finally, I determined, yield up my former belief of security salvation, follow God's Word, what these saying rather than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

I have been reading posts of this topic. I notice securists always, always hopping as rabbit, avoid discuss on these verses as Bob had shown you lately.

Why cannot you stay sticky with these as what Bob showed them to you?

Who of Romans chapter 11 is speaking apply to?? I want you to answer straight to me, not ignore my question like as hopping as rabbit.

Also, I asking you, whose of Matthew 25:14-30 is speaking apply to??

I realized that dispensationalists teaching people, saying to them, 'this passage is not apply to Church', blah, blah, blah.... Want to comfort them as itching ears, not want to listen sound doctrines.

I wish that all of you have to stay on the same track or sticky with the same area or question with verse, and focus on it, instead of avoid as rabbit. Why cannot you answering Bob's questions of verses??

PLEASE STAY ON THE SAME TRACK!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Salvation is eternal but only if you want it to be.

If you follow Christ and believe in him then your saved if you stop your not saved.
OSAS doesnt mean you profess Christ and say you believe then the next day you can go do what you will salvation means your will is subject to Gods will. There is a such thing as OSAS but only if you choose.

Salvation is still yours to take. Its also your to reject. God still loves you nothing can stop that.


This makes sense and doesnt contridict the word of God.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[Hope of Glory]

Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, only you yourself shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I added the relevant part so the Bible will now match what you are saying that you can cause yourself to lose your salvation.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

It says the love of God that is Christ Jesus that doesnt mean salvation just love. Salvation is something we choose God doesnt for it on us his love however is and always will be. Salvation is the acceptance of his love for us.


Rev. Jerry D. lowery

 

[Hope of Glory]

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and continue believing and doing good things, and thou shalt be saved, maybe.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, only you yourself shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I added the relevant part so the Bible will now match what you are saying that you can cause yourself to lose your salvation.

I don't see that qualification in these verses:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand." John 10:28-29

I believe that "no man" covers everyone. Including the believer.

 

[Hope of Glory]

That's my point. It's not in there.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good morning.


I want to say of John 10:28-29, amen. I love this passage is a beautiful of the promise. No person even Satan can take us away from Christ's hand. Christ have power to hold us. Securists use this passage by emphasis on this for the proof of security salvation. But, securists' bad habit for to pick a verse out of its context, what the whole passage is talking about.

Christ promises us, that He have power to hold us, IF we hear his voice(God's word,), and to FOLLOW Christ - verse 27 says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME."

Are there many Christians actual following Christ today? Most 'Christians' are not follow Christ.

I like a classic popular song- "I Decide to Follow Jesus". The song says: 'I have decided to follow Jesus, no turn back, I have decided to follow Jesus, no turn back,....."

Bible teaches us, that we do not turn back. We have to stay straight forward follow Christ all the times. In Luke 9:62 says: "And Jesus said unto him, 'No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." Christ uses farmer as illustration. When a farmer is plowing the crop field, he have to plow it straight forward. He cannot turn it backward, or it would be MESS UP, and impossible to fix up the crop field of lines. Christ tells us, we must keep go forward straight and follow Christ, or if we turn back, then cannot enter the kingdom of God-eternal life.

You mentioned about the laws.

Keeping the laws do not saved us. We don't follow all 400 laws. Christ already nailed laws on the cross, we are no longer under the law, but under grace. The only we can do is FOLLOW Christ.

You mentioned on Romans 8:35-39, to prove us, that we cannot be separated from God is security salvation. But, this passage is not talking about salvation, talking about God's LOVE.

By the way, again, I ask you, why cannot you answer to Bob's questions of verses? Please stay on the same track, and focus on these verses with questions, and to answer them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Rev. Lowery]

I must say I started out in this post believing that belief alone was all it took to go to heaven. Even if you backslide.

Now I must admite to myself the truth of Gods word.

1. If you stop following Christ you want go to heaven? Yes.

2. Did I truely turn my life over to Gods will?
Yes.

3. Did I allow Satan to lure me away from Christ salvation? Yes.

4. Did my actions of being lured away remove Gods love? No.

5. Am I secure as long as I follow Gods will? Yes.

6. Is God going to sustain me? Yes

7. Do I have freewill to choose the direction my life goes even after salvation? Yes.

8. Will God detour me from doing wrong? Yes

9. Will God prevent me from going astray? No.

10. Does God give me the right to choose my road? Yes.

11. Does God love me? Yes, always, and Forever.

These are the things I have come to admit to my own heart. Through hardness and lack of knowledge I was afraid and didn't want to admit my own flaws to myself. Thats the hardest step convincing ourselves of the truth.

Rev. Jerry D. Lowery

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Once saved, you are no longer "UNDER THE LAW", and sin is not imputed where there is "NO LAW".

So how can the "LAW" condemn you???

It does not condemn the believer who is choosing "By the Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8. For when we do that "The Spirit bears witness with our spirit that WE are the children of God"

But that does not mean that it does not exist. In fact "We ESTABLISH the Law of God by our faith" Rom 3:31

Paul is very CLEAR about what Law that is in Romans 7. It is the Ten commandments. James also points that out in James chapter 2.

"So live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty" - See the Law of Liberty "examples" given by James as quotes from the Ten Commandments.

See Paul in Eph 6:1-3 quote from the 5th commandment arguing for its binding authority on Christians and addinig "this is the FIRST commandment with a Promise" within that unit of Ten.( Certainly not within the entire Word of God - but within the Unit of Ten -- yes).

Jesus saves us from Sin - but does not take away free will. God Loves us JUST like He loved Adam and Eve - no more, no less.

He allowed them to choose damnation - they fell - and he opened a way of escape for them - He provided the Gospel "For God so LOVED the World that HE GAVE"..

They were "really saved" not "fake saved". That is so - because they were "really lost" when they fell - just as ALL of us are "really lost" as we inherit their SAME condmnation we need that SAME Gospel to save us!

In Christ,

Bob