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#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
Rev. Lowery
New Member
It says the love of God that is Christ Jesus that doesnt mean salvation just love. Salvation is something we choose. God doesnt force it on us. His love however is and always will be. Salvation is the acceptance of his love for us.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
edited by Rev. Lowery
I need to fix some grammatical errors. hehe
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
edited by Rev. Lowery
I need to fix some grammatical errors. hehe
Rev. Lowery
New Member
You place such a narrow view when you say thoughts. I am not saying thoughts I am saying total rejection by your actions and going againsts Gods will. You could argue truely saved want do these things. But you let a new christian be set among the world with no where to turn. You will see him fall. I know I was him. Belief alone isnt enough for Satan believes but he will not go to Heaven.
The seeds that fell into the thorns they heard the word and accepted but because of the world where choked.
That says it right there.
Its a combination of Perseverance, Belief, Faith, and Gods Grace without them all you cant have salvation.
Ephesians 2:8
John 3:16-17
John 3:16-17 shows faith
Ephesians 2:8 shows that through the Faith we see Grace and by that Grace through Faith alone are we saved. Through Faith is the KEY.
If we loose Faith we loose Grace and Salvation.
Works donot save us they merely show whats inside our hearts. They prove us.
But we can never loose Gods love.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
The seeds that fell into the thorns they heard the word and accepted but because of the world where choked.
That says it right there.
Its a combination of Perseverance, Belief, Faith, and Gods Grace without them all you cant have salvation.
Ephesians 2:8
John 3:16-17
John 3:16-17 shows faith
Ephesians 2:8 shows that through the Faith we see Grace and by that Grace through Faith alone are we saved. Through Faith is the KEY.
If we loose Faith we loose Grace and Salvation.
Works donot save us they merely show whats inside our hearts. They prove us.
But we can never loose Gods love.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
Rev. Lowery
New Member
You are confusing Gods love with Salvation.
We can never be seperated from the Love of God.
We must accept salvation to have it.
Gods love is something he gives us weather or not we accept.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
We can never be seperated from the Love of God.
We must accept salvation to have it.
Gods love is something he gives us weather or not we accept.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
Works didn't save us and works can't unsave us, that is if you have been saved.
If works were "ADDED" to the plan of salvation, then our "keeping the law" would be necessary, however that isn't the case, we're saved "BY FAITH" in the "WORKS" of Jesus.
We can't have so much as "ONE CHARGE OF SIN" against us, else we'd "go to hell", and that is the "LAW", and who stops sinning after being saved???
We have to be "SEALED" against all "FUTURE SIN" or Jesus would have to come back and die again to pay for that "ONE SIN", that's the "LAW".
Jesus took away the "SIN", not the "LAW" it's still in effect, but if there's "NO SIN", there's "NO LAW" to condemn, hence, we're not "UNDER THE LAW".
If works were "ADDED" to the plan of salvation, then our "keeping the law" would be necessary, however that isn't the case, we're saved "BY FAITH" in the "WORKS" of Jesus.
We can't have so much as "ONE CHARGE OF SIN" against us, else we'd "go to hell", and that is the "LAW", and who stops sinning after being saved???
We have to be "SEALED" against all "FUTURE SIN" or Jesus would have to come back and die again to pay for that "ONE SIN", that's the "LAW".
Jesus took away the "SIN", not the "LAW" it's still in effect, but if there's "NO SIN", there's "NO LAW" to condemn, hence, we're not "UNDER THE LAW".
Rev. Lowery
New Member
Your right Me4Him.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
Even back in my days as a Fundamentalist Baptists I still had my doubts in the back of my mind about the OSAS doctrine. I would bump into people that would tell me how devoted they were to Christ and how they led Sunday school, were graduates from Bible College and were living a life for Christ when suddenly some unforeseen event shook their faith and over a period of time came to a conclusion that there was no loving caring God and that if there was a man named Jesus He wasn’t the Son of God.
Are these people still saved, those that no longer “believe”? My cop-out answer was always that “they were never truly saved to begin with…” In the back of my mind I would be thinking that if that’s the case, then nobody knows if they are truly saved.
There are two extremes: Eternal security and Eternal insecurity, and I believe that there is a middle ground here.
God’s love is unconditional, God can’t not love us and there’s nothing we can do to make God not love us, His love is unconditional and irrevocable and it’s not based in any way whatsoever on what I do. God loves, b/c God is love.
My relationship with God IS conditional, the relationship I have with God is two-way. Love can be unilateral, but a relationship is bilateral.
For an example, I could say that there’s nothing my wife can do that would change my love for her. My love for my wife is unconditional, yet our relationship is two-way. What if she ran off with another man, totally rejecting me and everything I stood for? I would still love her, but would we still have a relationship? That’s the burning question. Now some could argue that my wife still has some legal standing with me, but most logical people would agree that if my wife would continue repeated purposeful acts of rebellion that our two-way relationship would end. My love may remain for her, but the relationship would be dead.
But OTOH, I do feel that Christians have a great security, almost absolute, but not quite. God’s seed at our conversion remains within us, and one can disobey God and “backside”, but as long as a Christian focuses on a DAILY developing walk with God, the possibility of a spiritual type of rebellion, the hardened set spiritual defiance that can break a relationship is slim.
We that are married will agree that our marriage is just as important as the wedding event and the same is true with our relationship with God. Our walk with God is just as important as the initiating event. This is why I left the Fundamental Baptist Church, they lacked disciple and focused more on evangelizing the lost, which is important, but what happens after their conversion?
Back to my marriage with my wife, we are developing a loving growing bilateral marriage relationship and the odds that our relationship will dissolve are remote. My family and I are all developing a loving growing relationship with God and in doing so; the chances of my relationship with God dissolving are also remote.
Again I feel that a continual pattern of purposeful premeditated disobedience will indeed eventually harden into an attitude of rebellion and defiance that can break off our two-way relationship with God. There’s still NOTHING that can separate God’s love, but the relationship is ended. There is NO state of Grace that we can reach where we could not of our own free will decide to reject God and finally lose our own soul.
Blessings
Are these people still saved, those that no longer “believe”? My cop-out answer was always that “they were never truly saved to begin with…” In the back of my mind I would be thinking that if that’s the case, then nobody knows if they are truly saved.
There are two extremes: Eternal security and Eternal insecurity, and I believe that there is a middle ground here.
God’s love is unconditional, God can’t not love us and there’s nothing we can do to make God not love us, His love is unconditional and irrevocable and it’s not based in any way whatsoever on what I do. God loves, b/c God is love.
My relationship with God IS conditional, the relationship I have with God is two-way. Love can be unilateral, but a relationship is bilateral.
For an example, I could say that there’s nothing my wife can do that would change my love for her. My love for my wife is unconditional, yet our relationship is two-way. What if she ran off with another man, totally rejecting me and everything I stood for? I would still love her, but would we still have a relationship? That’s the burning question. Now some could argue that my wife still has some legal standing with me, but most logical people would agree that if my wife would continue repeated purposeful acts of rebellion that our two-way relationship would end. My love may remain for her, but the relationship would be dead.
But OTOH, I do feel that Christians have a great security, almost absolute, but not quite. God’s seed at our conversion remains within us, and one can disobey God and “backside”, but as long as a Christian focuses on a DAILY developing walk with God, the possibility of a spiritual type of rebellion, the hardened set spiritual defiance that can break a relationship is slim.
We that are married will agree that our marriage is just as important as the wedding event and the same is true with our relationship with God. Our walk with God is just as important as the initiating event. This is why I left the Fundamental Baptist Church, they lacked disciple and focused more on evangelizing the lost, which is important, but what happens after their conversion?
Back to my marriage with my wife, we are developing a loving growing bilateral marriage relationship and the odds that our relationship will dissolve are remote. My family and I are all developing a loving growing relationship with God and in doing so; the chances of my relationship with God dissolving are also remote.
Again I feel that a continual pattern of purposeful premeditated disobedience will indeed eventually harden into an attitude of rebellion and defiance that can break off our two-way relationship with God. There’s still NOTHING that can separate God’s love, but the relationship is ended. There is NO state of Grace that we can reach where we could not of our own free will decide to reject God and finally lose our own soul.
Blessings
Rev. Lowery
New Member
I agree riverm I was like you and felt well then is anyone truley saved.....Ahhhh man and his wisdom. We have not the mind of God nor can we know his ways for they are not ours.
Dont use your judgement read the word its clear.
You just have to admit it to your own heart first.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
Dont use your judgement read the word its clear.
You just have to admit it to your own heart first.
Rev. Jerry D. Lowery
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is NO text in all of scripture that says "we are SEALED against future sin" there is no text in ALL of scripture that says "We are SEALED agains PAST sins".
There IS a chapter in Matt 18 on "forgiveness REVOKED"
There IS a text in Ezek 18 on "forgiveness REVOKED"
There IS a text in 1 Tim 1 on "The shipwreck of faith".
There IS a text in Gal 5 on "fallen from Grace"
We are SEALED in and by the Holy Spirit. But that sealing does not remove free will which is WHY God keeps warning the saints about failure to endure by saing "NEITHER will He spare YOU!" Romans 11.
totally false!
Where there is NO sin there IS STILL LAW.
(see the Angels in heaven).
Where there is forgiveness "RECEIVED" the Law does not condemn but IF you twist this around to say "If Christ died for all sin then nobody is guilty of sin - no one is condemned as a sinner today" then you have wrenched the text way out of context!
your argument "appears" to be -- "Christ died for all sin so there is no sin".
And that is not supportable from scripture.
Furthermore - in Romans 6 Paul is clear that there is SIN for the BELIEVER - that the BELIEVER must choose to gain victory over.
This can not be missed. Romans 7 is even more clear on the subject of REAL sin REALLY being a problem for REAL saints.
In Christ,
Bob
riverm.
I would argue that they were never saved because of Phil. 1:6; John 10:14 and other verses that I have read. And I am not a Calvinist who believes in the perseverence of the saints.
If they were truly saved I believe that God would lovingly take them to a place in their lives where they would cry out to God and come back to Him. Any parent would do this if they were able. And God is more than able.
I would argue that they were never saved because of Phil. 1:6; John 10:14 and other verses that I have read. And I am not a Calvinist who believes in the perseverence of the saints.
If they were truly saved I believe that God would lovingly take them to a place in their lives where they would cry out to God and come back to Him. Any parent would do this if they were able. And God is more than able.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I can't believe that everyone here is so enlightened on this subject of the conditional nature of the Gospel promise "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9.
How is it that such a thing exists here? I thought for sure I would be alone on this board (or nearly so) on this point of OSAS not being correct - yet there seems to be almost a concensus on this thread that OSAS is error.
How is it that everyone came around on this?
What did I miss?
In Christ,
Bob
How is it that such a thing exists here? I thought for sure I would be alone on this board (or nearly so) on this point of OSAS not being correct - yet there seems to be almost a concensus on this thread that OSAS is error.
How is it that everyone came around on this?
What did I miss?
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That is pretty much standard for 3 and 5 point Calvinism but what does it say about "assurance" if you claim to be saved today and then can not know that 10 years from today you will not fail to persevere. In fact 10 years from today when you DO fail to persevere all your fellow 3 and 5 point Calvinists will say you were never saved (retro-delete assurance) just as you say it of all that you see fail to persevere today.
The net effect is that "assurance" is denied as would any benefit be denied in a "retro-delete" model.
(BTW the one bit of GOOD news in that 3 and 5 point Calvinist model is that they do not totally toss out the Bible truth on Perseverance the way the 4 point Calvinists do)
In Christ,
Bob
Bob.
Believe it or not I am a 0-point Calvinist.
I believe in eternal security of the saints. Not the perseverence of the saints.
I did notice though in your above post that you believe that sin causes one to lose there salvation.
I am wondering what the number is? You know, the number of sin(s) that cause a saved Christian to lose their salvation?
And why you believe that Christ is a totally powerless Advocate? 1 John 2:1
Believe it or not I am a 0-point Calvinist.
I believe in eternal security of the saints. Not the perseverence of the saints.
I did notice though in your above post that you believe that sin causes one to lose there salvation.
I am wondering what the number is? You know, the number of sin(s) that cause a saved Christian to lose their salvation?
And why you believe that Christ is a totally powerless Advocate? 1 John 2:1
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
4 Point Calvinists believe in eternal security and reject the Bible doctrine of perseverance as you do.
So you at least have that much in common.
I on the other hand accept Christ's teaching on "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.
Those who think that "turned over to satan" is some kind of Gospel promise of salvation - are wrong.
Those who think that the new Birth promise found in the Gospel describes the saved life as "cut off from Christ" and "Christ denying you" and "shipwreck of faith", and
"fallen from Grace" are also dead wrong.
In Christ,
Bob
So you at least have that much in common.
I on the other hand accept Christ's teaching on "Forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.
Those who think that "turned over to satan" is some kind of Gospel promise of salvation - are wrong.
Those who think that the new Birth promise found in the Gospel describes the saved life as "cut off from Christ" and "Christ denying you" and "shipwreck of faith", and
"fallen from Grace" are also dead wrong.
In Christ,
Bob
Le 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Do you know the "DIFFERENCE" between "FORGIVEN SINS", and "TAKEN AWAY SIN"???
"Forgiven"=payment postponed until future date.
"Taken away"=payment made, "IN FULL".
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
"NO SIN" will ever be "FORGIVEN",
sin is a "DEBT" that WILL BE PAID" to the "LAST, Jot, Title, Mite",
Either By "Jesus" or the "Person", that's the "LAW".
Once saved, God can't just "FORGIVE" your sin "WITHOUT" someone having to "DIE" to pay the "wages of that sin".
If God does, then "JESUS DIED FOR NOTHING".
That's "WHY" in dying "ONCE", Jesus "TOOK AWAY" the sins of the whole world, so the "WHOLE WORLD"...MIGHT BE.. saved,
"EVERY SIN", from "Adam/Eve" to the last person saved, Jesus has paid for, and "FAITH" (unbelief) is the "ONLY REASON" preventing the "WHOLE WORLD" from being saved.
Once saved, You can't commit a sin that Jesus hasn't "ALREADY" paid for, No sin=No law="SEALED". (OSAS)
IF keeping our salvation depended on "US", "keeping the law", then "WE" could "GLORY" (brag) in the "righteousness" of "our works",
I'm "MORE" righteous than you.
But one sin make all of us "sinners", saved only by "faith in Jesus", no works, before/after salvation.
A saved person (like Israel) can rebell against God, but it's a "sin unto death", God will allow Satan to "physically kill you" but still save the soul.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(Israel, during the trib)
Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death. (physical death)
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Do you know the "DIFFERENCE" between "FORGIVEN SINS", and "TAKEN AWAY SIN"???
"Forgiven"=payment postponed until future date.
"Taken away"=payment made, "IN FULL".
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
"NO SIN" will ever be "FORGIVEN",
sin is a "DEBT" that WILL BE PAID" to the "LAST, Jot, Title, Mite",
Either By "Jesus" or the "Person", that's the "LAW".
Once saved, God can't just "FORGIVE" your sin "WITHOUT" someone having to "DIE" to pay the "wages of that sin".
If God does, then "JESUS DIED FOR NOTHING".
That's "WHY" in dying "ONCE", Jesus "TOOK AWAY" the sins of the whole world, so the "WHOLE WORLD"...MIGHT BE.. saved,
"EVERY SIN", from "Adam/Eve" to the last person saved, Jesus has paid for, and "FAITH" (unbelief) is the "ONLY REASON" preventing the "WHOLE WORLD" from being saved.
Once saved, You can't commit a sin that Jesus hasn't "ALREADY" paid for, No sin=No law="SEALED". (OSAS)
IF keeping our salvation depended on "US", "keeping the law", then "WE" could "GLORY" (brag) in the "righteousness" of "our works",
I'm "MORE" righteous than you.
But one sin make all of us "sinners", saved only by "faith in Jesus", no works, before/after salvation.
A saved person (like Israel) can rebell against God, but it's a "sin unto death", God will allow Satan to "physically kill you" but still save the soul.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(Israel, during the trib)
Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony;
and they loved not their lives unto the death. (physical death)
Ps 89:20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: (God's decree to save, same with the church)
Ps 89:30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
What is the "ROD" God uses??
Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, (Antichrist) the rod of mine anger, and the staff (Leadership) in their hand is mine indignation.
Moses/Arron's "ROD" turned into a "SERPENT" when "cast to the earth" and so does the "ROD" God uses to "CHASTISE" Israel with during the trib. (SATAN)
The "STRIPES" in Israel's "FLESH", the AC inflicts on their "physical bodies", killing all who refuses to worship the "image".
For those who haven't "rebelled" against God (Jesus) they "escape" this "chastisement" in the "rapture", Jesus suffer their "STRIPES" in his "FLESH".
Ten Virgins went to meet the "Bridegroom" but only "Five" had enough "OIL" (Spirit) left in them to hear his "VOICE".
God is "NO RESPECTOR OF PERSONS" where "CHASTISEMENT" is concerned.
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
It all boils down to this,
We either "Crucify the flesh" or God will allow Satan to do it for us",
this is "Chastisement", and God only chastises "HIS OWN". (saved)
Bob.
You failed to address any of my points concerning your post that stated:
If we don't have either our past or future sins covered, how do you expect to get to Heaven?
And again, why to you suppose that Jesus is a totally useless Advocate (defense attorney)?
[ December 04, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
#1. You equivocate between "Sealed" and forgiveness - the Bible does not. Then you ask why I reject that equivocation AS IF forgiveness of past sins is spoken of in scripture as "SEALED AGAINST PAST SINS" - no such equivocation is made in scripure. Only you make it.
#2. You then charge that If Christ is correct about Forgiveness revoked (in the example HE gives in Matt 18) then Christ is a "useless advocate". But this is simply your own speculation. How in the world do you expect me to defend it? You aks "why I would suppose he is a totally useless Advocate" --- obviously "I do not". Only you make that leap when you read Matt 18 - not me.
In Christ,
Bob
#2. You then charge that If Christ is correct about Forgiveness revoked (in the example HE gives in Matt 18) then Christ is a "useless advocate". But this is simply your own speculation. How in the world do you expect me to defend it? You aks "why I would suppose he is a totally useless Advocate" --- obviously "I do not". Only you make that leap when you read Matt 18 - not me.
In Christ,
Bob