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2 Kingdoms

Marcia

Marcia

Active Member
Amy.G said:
Here you say that the Kingdom of Heaven is Jewish, but in this passage, the Kingdom of Heaven is surely referring to the church and the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Mt*22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
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The kingdom of heaven is never the church. The church and kingdom of heaven are quite distinct.
 
O

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Amy.G said:
Actually, you didn't cover it, because you didn't tell us what the difference is. :) What am I missing? What is the difference? Is this a secret?
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That there is a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven is just another dispensational myth.

John Walvoord, the preeminent dispensational theologian, in his book Major Bible Prophecies, page 213 states: In Matthew's Gospel there seems to be a difference in the usage of kingdom of heaven, justifying the conclusion that it refers to the sphere of profession on contrast to kingdom of God, which always refers to those who are saved or, in the case of angels, holy.
 
Marcia

Marcia

Active Member
Amy.G said:
Ok. I'm totally confused. What is the kingdom of heaven?
Maybe I should have said church age?
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No, not the church age, either.

Here's my post from Post #36:
I think we have to think about the word "Kingdom" first. The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven both refer to the rule or reign of God. I think since they are used interchangeably, as some have pointed out here, they refer to the same thing: the reign of God and sometimes the reign of Christ (Kingdom of Christ).

Jesus came to set up His kingdom, first ruling in believers and then later as the Millennial Kingdom (the amills will disagree with this), and finally the Kingdom of God descends and rules the earth in Revelation (the heavenly Jerusalem descending). It's in stages, just as salvation is: First saved from the penalty of sin, then from the power of sin, then from the presence of sin.

I found Elton Ladd's book, The Gospel of the Kingdom, to be very helpful on this topic (though he's mid or post-trib and I'm not, but that doesn't really enter into it). Men do not build the Kingdom of God; Christ brings it. He says that the Kingdom is presently invisible and it is not a realm or a people, but God's reign.

He says that when we pray, "Thy Kingdom come," it is a petition for God to reign, to "manifest His kingly sovereignty and power" (page 21).

Btw, Ladd is not some off-the-wall guy but very respected. My NT prof recommended this book.
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I think that book by Ladd would help you, Amy. :wavey:
 
M

MovieProducer

New Member
Well, I sure don't think it's my duty to make people see things the way I do.:laugh: I used to think the kingdoms were all the same thing, and I did so in good conscience. I've been wrong before, and no doubt will find myself wrong again. Thank God his grace covers my ignorance!:thumbs:

I think the scripture teaches that the kingdoms are distinct, and this insight has helped me better understand Jesus' parables. Many of the teachings about the kingdom of heaven are confusing if you think they apply to the kingdom of God, and while I dealt with that confusion by faith, I'm glad I have a better understanding now, by his grace.

There's a ton of stuff that's confusing about the scriptures, so I don't claim any special brilliance, LOL. But that's only to be expected; if the bible contains the words of God Almighty, you'd expect it to be challenging reading, right?

Ta ta! :wavey:
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
OldRegular said:
That there is a difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven is just another dispensational myth. ......
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Although I wasn't aware the notion of two kingdoms had it's roots in dispensationalism, I agree with you OR, there is no difference. Take note of how it's worded in Daniel:

And in the days of those kings shall the 'God' of 'heaven' set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 2:44

It doesn't matter if you call it the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God, or the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, it's all the same.
 
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O

olegig

New Member
Steven2006,

Same occurrence, translated using "heaven" or "God". If they mean something different then one gospel is contradicting the others.

Think of it this way, the kingdom of heaven is the childrens' classroom, while the kingdom of God is building A containing the classroom.

One could say: "children come to your classroom" or "children come to building A" and both would be correct, have application, and no contradiction.

Amy.G,

Here you say that the Kingdom of Heaven is Jewish, but in this passage, the Kingdom of Heaven is surely referring to the church and the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Mt*22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

I agree the passage is referring to the marriage supper; but notice there is no mention of a bride in the whole passage.
In the parable we see the son who will someday take the place of the king (vs 2); therefore at some point the son will be the king.
We also know that any king's bride is not a servant to the king, but a ruler along side the king.

Paul never refers to the Church as servants as in vs 10 where they went out to gather guests for the wedding.
Paul refers to members of the Church as ambassadors (2Cor 5:20) and Paul refers to Christ as the head of the body, not a king. (1Cor 1:3; Eph 4:15; 5:23; Col 1:18)

The Church, the Body of Christ as the bride of Christ may certainly help Christ reign over the Kingdom of Heaven (2Tim 2:12) when the Lord Jesus Christ physically sets on the throne of David and the Jews finally have the fulfillment of their promised land.
But that does not mean the Kingdom of Heaven is the fulfillment of the promises to the members of the Church for we are promised a glorified body, not a physical land.

Ok. I'm totally confused. What is the kingdom of heaven?

Simply put, when used in the gospel of Matthew, it is referring to the Millennial Reign of Christ.
 
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kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Amy.G said:
...Maybe I should have said church age?
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In my own humble personal opinion; since we are referred to as Ambassadors for Christ, the visible Church on earth can be rightly considered as the embassy of the Kingdom of God, or Heaven, or Christ, which ever you wish to call it. :)
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
..........and bear in mind, when Christ returns:

....Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Cor 15:23,24

No mention of a thousand year reign or a return to the weak and beggarly elements of the law. The Kingdom is now.
 
O

olegig

New Member
kyredneck said:
..........and bear in mind, when Christ returns:

....Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Cor 15:23,24

No mention of a thousand year reign or a return to the weak and beggarly elements of the law. The Kingdom is now.
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I understand many have this view; but I cannot accept it because it would require a very dismal view of Christ's ability to rule and reign when all current events are considered.
It just does not seem to me that all rule, authority, and power has been abolished.
 
kyredneck

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
olegig said:
.....a very dismal view of Christ's ability to rule and reign when all current events are considered.......
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The Kingdom of God is not about current events, and never was.

These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world.... Jn 18:36

.....The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17:20,21

If you have a dismal view of this, it's your problem, and you are missing out:

for the kingdom of God is......righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1:11
 
O

olegig

New Member
kyredneck said:
The Kingdom of God is not about current events, and never was.

These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world.... Jn 18:36

.....The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17:20,21

If you have a dismal view of this, it's your problem, and you are missing out:

for the kingdom of God is......righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17

for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1:11
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I certainly agree there is a tremendous aspect of the Kingdom of God which is of a spiritual nature; but you have neglected to list all the verses dealing with beating swords into plow shears and the lion laying with the lamb, etc......

If one does not take the verses you omit literally, then how can one take the verses you mentioned literally as well?
On what basis do you pick and chose which verses should be believed?
 
pinoybaptist

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
olegig said:
I understand many have this view; but I cannot accept it because it would require a very dismal view of Christ's ability to rule and reign when all current events are considered.
It just does not seem to me that all rule, authority, and power has been abolished.
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I think it is because you cannot seem to take your eyes off carnal things and keep them on the spiritual.
All rule, authority, and power on this world whether carnal (worldly) or spiritual (false religions, witchcraft, etc) are under the prince of the power of the air (remember Ephesians ?) and his power and kingdom have been brought into subjugation at the cross. you do believe that, don't you ?
and very soon these abolitions will be finalized at the Great White Throne which follows the catching up of Christ's kingdom and of His people, and the casting into the lake of fire of the wicked and of Satan and his minions, including death and hell.

The root of this inability to understand and perceive the rule of Christ in the kingdom of the hearts of His people is the inability, or refusal, maybe to accept that redemption is OVER.
No more redeeming is being done, no more saving from the wrath of God in eternity is being done.
Christ rules.
 
A

AnotherBaptist

New Member
Amy.G said:
Actually, you didn't cover it, because you didn't tell us what the difference is. :)



What am I missing? What is the difference?

Is this a secret?
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My purpose here was to stimulate conversation. It's been stimulated. I have settled the issue for myself and have a peace about it. If you still haven't answered the question for yourself, then you need to keep studying until you get either "they're the same" or "they're not the same".

I'll give you a hint. Stay in Matthew 13 until you understand all the parables and what they mean. For example:

What is the "treasure"?
What is the "Pearl of great price"?
How can tares be among the wheat in the kingdom?

In the end, the concept of the "kingdom of heaven" is more than the concept of the "kingdom of God" but includes that also. It's that "more" that makes them different. A couple of posters have touched on it in this thread.
 
A

AnotherBaptist

New Member
canadyjd said:
Obviously, leaven is not referring to sin in this verse.

Considering the context (various parables concerning seeds and growth), it appears Jesus is referring to how the Kingdom of heaven will grow. Like leaven put into mean will spread, the kingdom of heaven will grow until all is full.

peace to you:praying:
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Since you brought up context, can you show me anywhere else in the Bible where leaven does not imply/mean sin? If not, then it becomes apparent that your understanding of the passage goes against all other Scripture. Even if you view the concept of the "kingdom of heaven" the same way I do, there is no need to take your position on this passage. It means sin, just like it does everywhere else.

In regards to "filling up", what are the "birds of the air" who nest in all the branches of the tree? How did the field get full of both wheat and tares? In the other parables, getting "filled up" doesn't necessarily imply good.
 
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