2 Peter 1:1-11

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Chris,

So your argument is that because the of the way you interpret certain scriptures, these other scriptures can't say what they appear to be saying.

Perhaps your interpretations and implications based on the scriptures you have posted are in error.

Not at all - rather it is the analogy of Scripture, the Protestant hermeneutic which states that Scripture interprets Scripture, the clear explaining the less clear.

YOUR hermeneutic is presuppositional; salvation can be lost, so whatever the election/security passages mean, they cannot mean eternal security.

 

[Eladar]

Originally posted by Chris Temple:
Not at all - rather it is the analogy of Scripture, the Protestant hermeneutic which states that Scripture interprets Scripture, the clear explaining the less clear.

YOUR hermeneutic is presuppositional; salvation can be lost, so whatever the election/security passages mean, they cannot mean eternal security.

Not exactly. My approach is to look at scripture as a whole. No scripture trumps another. If there is a discrpency, then it is because of interpretation and implication. The idea of 'loosing salvation' was even voice by Jesus: If salt looses its saltiness then its no longer any good(not a direct quote, but correct meaning).

Kellisa,

There is a difference between living in open rebellion and sinning from time to time. This is the difference in sins.

Verse 19 is talking about those who follow the false teachers, not just the teachers. Notice that the group that followed the false teachers were at one time a part of the Church.

[ February 28, 2002, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Kellisa]

By saying that a saved person can lose his salvation you are denying that Christ is able to keep all those that his Father gives unto him. God knows those that are truly his and he is able to keep them. If you are trusting on your own works, then you have excluded Christ from salvation and were never saved to begin with. The only way a person can think he can lose his salvation is if he first thinks he is the one that works for it or works to keep it.

 

[tyndale1946]

Tuor said

My approach is to look at scripture as a whole. No scripture trumps another. If there is a discrpency, then it is because of interpretation and implication.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Since you take scripture as a whole and don't want a misinterpretation of scripture or a passage of scripture that seems to contradict another Tuor this is for you. There is also a scripture in the New Testament that is in harmony with this one.

Why will they know God? Because he will put his law in their minds and write it in their hearts.
He will be their God and they shall be his people and he will forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more. Since the word is sin instead of sins it can only apply to their Adamic sin... Brother Glen

 

[Eladar]

Kellisa,

This is not what I'm saying at all. For one thing, I don't believe we can determine our salvation or not. I don't believe in what I call self-proclaimed salvation(or any humanly proclaimed salvation for that matter).

As Paul said over and over again, our life is a race. You don't win or lose the race until the race is over. You can't lose anything you haven't received.

All we know from scripture is that the elect will be saved. Once saved always saved people make one giant mistake:

They teach that one can know the outcome of the race before the race is over.

tyndale,

That was a wonderful scripture you posted, but you are still delaring victory before the race is over. No where in the scripture does it say that you can know you are apart of the elect, it only describes the beliefs of the elect for comparison.

By the way, have you ever seen a race where the victor wasn't always in the lead. It would surely appear as if someone were declaring victory and loss in a yo-yo manner, if a person would make such statemsnts when the final outcome was still in the future. You can't lose what you haven't achieved.

 

[Kellisa]

So what you are trying to say is that we constantly need to strive to perfection so that hopefully at the end of our life we will either (1) do enough good works to make it to heaven or (2) hope that we are a part of the elect

 

[Eladar]

My out look is version 2. If we are, then we will display the elect's fruit throughout life.

 

[Kellisa]

[ February 28, 2002, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Kellisa ]

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Kallisa:So what you are trying to say is that we constantly need to strive to perfection so that hopefully at the end of our life we will either (1) do enough good works to make it to heaven or (2) hope that we are a part of the elect.

Originally posted by Tuor:My out look is version 2. If we are, then we will display the elect's fruit throughout life.

A combination of the two would seem to also correctly reflect Tuor’s “outlook”: We constantly need to strive for perfection so that at the end of our life we will have hopefully done enough good works to have been a part of the elect.

Wouldn't one be hoping to make it to heaven because they are hoping they are the elect and vice versa?

[ February 28, 2002, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

[Kellisa]

Tuor,

Why are we then told in God's word to draw near unto him with a true heart in full assurance of faith?

 

[Eladar]

The elect are to do that. We can have a belief that we are apart of the elect, and we might be. To make out election sure, we are to not only weed out the seeds that prove to be of Satan, but we are to also cultivate God's seeds.

If we do these things, the Bible tells us that we can be assured that we are apart of the elect. As Jesus said, it is the wise man who puts his teachings into practice.

 

[Kellisa]

Originally posted by Tuor:
The elect are to do that. We can have a belief that we are apart of the elect, and we might be. To make out election sure, we are to not only weed out the seeds that prove to be of Satan, but we are to also cultivate God's seeds.

If we do these things, the Bible tells us that we can be assured that we are apart of the elect. As Jesus said, it is the wise man who puts his teachings into practice.

You have already said that we cannot make our election sure, only God knows that so why are you now saying that "to mke our election sure". You are stating two different things. Any way you look at it you are trying to make salvation into works instead of beleiveing in the blood of Jesus.

 

[Christopher]

Armenians,

If one of God's people can lose their salvation, at what point exactly do they lose it? How far does one have to go in sin before he or she no longer "qualifies" for salvation? David committed adultery and Peter denied Jesus. Were these great men of God cast away because of their sins?

Jesus said: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

I sincerely wonder about someone who made a profession of faith and turned his or her back on God, never to return.

Paul said: "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (Heb. 12:6-7)

One who is not chastened by the Lord is not a son because the Lord chastens all those that He loves!

Jesus said: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent." (Rev. 3:19)

NOTHING can separate God's elect from His everlasting love. (Rom. 8:35-39)

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." (Rom. 4:8)

Part of the problem is your Bible translation. In the King James Version, Hebrews 6:6 says: "If they shall fall away..." "If" being the key word.

To God be the glory, Christopher

 

[Eladar]

No, I said that at any point in our life we can't be sure that we are of the elect. But we can make our election secure by living out God's truths throughout our entire life.

God's elect will do this. Those who are not a part of God's elect won't.

If we ever decide to abandon God's teachings, we have demonstrated that we are not apart of the elect. God's seed grew in our heart, it was just killed.

Christopher,

I see that you too believe in self-proclaimed salvation and deny Paul's teaching that life is a race.

Be careful not to exclude certain scripture because it contradicts your interpretation of other scritpure.

[ February 28, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Eladar]

I thought this should have its own post:

I don't believe one can lose salvation. I just believe the race isn't over until it's over.

 

[Kellisa]

Do the elect accept Jesus into thier hearts?

 

[Eladar]

Yes, but so do some of the those who are not apart of the elect.

Notice that some of the living seeds die.

 

[Kellisa]

God's word says he in no wise will cast out any man that cometh unto him.

 

[Christopher]

Armenians,

We most certainly can be sure that we are the elect and have eternal life!

"*Knowing*, brethren beloved, your election of God." (1 Thess. 1:4)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may *know* that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13)

Yes, Paul compared the Christian life to a race (Heb. 12:1), but in order to enter the race of faith one must be saved by the grace of God. Christians run the race of faith in order to obtain rewards, not eternal life.

"Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." (1 Cor. 9:24-25)

v.25 is clear that Christians are running to obtain crowns and rewards, NOT eternal life. (cf. 1 Cor. 3:14-15)

If one is trusting in his or her own works to get them into heaven, they, my friend, are on the wrong way!

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Is. 64:6)

One's works get them no where with God. The only way to the Father is through the His Son!

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

If a man tries to get to the Father any other way except through His Son, the Bible that man is a thief and a robber!

To God be the Glory, Christopher

 

[TomVols]

Originally posted by Tuor:
I thought this should have its own post:

I don't believe one can lose salvation. I just believe the race isn't over until it's over.

Frankly, if this is your contention, it seems as if you don't know what you believe. What you claim to believe and the beliefs you argue are are two seperate things entirely.
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Now, as moderator, let me caution that this topic has been hashed very recently. I'm going to give you a little lattitude. But let's explore ground not already covered in the last several threads you have started or I'm closing this down.