The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Yes... He's like that. I've had several conversations with him about theology. Not only is he brilliant, he is one of the kindest men I've ever met.
The Archangel
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2 Peter 2:1
- Thread starter Van
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Yes... He's like that. I've had several conversations with him about theology. Not only is he brilliant, he is one of the kindest men I've ever met.
The Archangel
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
The Bible doesn't say Christ died for every individual so that wouldn't be called redemption.
John 3:16
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
And where in that verse does it say he died for every individual? It doesn't. It says God loved the world. Then it says he gave his son for the whosever.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Besides, Jesus TOLD us who he died for, and it wasn't everyone. He laid his life down for the sheep.
Great verse. It supports particular redemption, even if you cannot see it.
Christ does not 'provide the means of reconciliation; He saves (Matthew 1:21 etc.) and He reconciles (Romans 5:11).
Not for me to say, but I suspect not because it is true.
You got that right. John 6:39 teaches Definite Atonement.
Something you do with monotonous regularity.
I tell you what! If you will stop the snide comments, so will I. Is that a deal?
its a clear implication given the context. God so loved the world not the elect that he gave His Son for the people He loves. Knowing that not everyone will not believe but those that do will have eternal life. For me the context is not hidden due to the presupposition of an errant definition of election.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Another reference swinging back to, "Christ is not here at all spoken of; nor is there one syllable of his dying for any persons, in any sense whatever."
2 PETER 2:1
by John Gill
The Cause of God and Truth, Part I, Section LIV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.—2 Pet. 2:1.
This passage of scripture is often produced as a proof both of the saints' final and total apostasy, and of universal redemption; or that, besides those that are saved, Christ died also for them that perish. Dr. Whitby mentions the severa1 answers which different men give to these words: one saith, Christ bought these persons only to be slaves; another, that he died to rescue them from temporal, but not eternal punishments; a third, that he died for them because he gave a sufficient price for them; a fourth, that they denied that Lord whom they professed to have bought them; and a fifth, that they denied him, who, in the judgment of other men, had bought them. Upon which he observes, that they are so extravagant, that it is as easy to confute as to recite them.
1. I do not think myself concerned to defend any of these senses of the text mentioned, judging neither of them to be the meaning; of the words, and so have nothing to do with the reasonings made use of in the confutation of them; though, perhaps, the two latter are not so extravagant as represented. However, in order to give the genuine sense of this text, let it be observed,
2. That Christ is not here at all spoken of; nor is there one syllable of his dying for any persons, in any sense whatever. The word "despotes", Lord, does not design Christ, but God the Father of Christ. The only places besides this where this word is used, when applied to a divine person, are Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24, 2 Tim. 2:21, Jude ver. 4, Rev. 6:10, in all which places God the Father is plainly intended, and in most of them manifestly distinguished from Christ; nor is there anything in this text or context which obliges us to understand it of the Son of God; nor should this be thought any diminution of the glory of Christ, since the word "despotes" is properly expressive only of that power which masters have over their servants; whereas the "kurios" which is used whenever Christ is called Lord, signifies that dominion and authority which princes have over their subjects. Besides Christ is called King of kings, and Lord of lords, and the only potentate; yea, God over all, blessed forever. Moreover,
3. When these persons are said to be bought, the meaning is, not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for, as is before observed, Christ is not intended. Besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense of it; see Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:20; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9, and 19:3-4, whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind. Add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ, are never left to deny him, so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom-price be paid for nought. But,
4. The word "buying" regards temporal deliverance, and particularly the redemption of the people of Israel out of Egypt; who are therefore called the people the Lord had purchased.
The phrase is borrowed from Deut. 36:6; Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee and established thee?
Nor is this the only place the apostle Peter refers to in this chapter; see ver. 12, 13, compared with Deut. 36:5.
Now the persons the apostle writes to, were Jews, the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, a people who, in all ages, valued themselves upon, and boasted mightily of their being the bought, purchased people of the Lord;
wherefore Peter makes use of this phrase much in the same manner as Moses had done before him, to aggravate the ingratitude and impiety of these false teachers among the Jews;
that they should deny, if not in words, at least in works, that mighty Jehovah, who had of old redeemed their fathers out of Egypt, with a stretched-out arm, and, in successive ages, had distinguished them with peculiar favors;
being ungodly men, turning the grace, the doctrine of the grace of God, into lasciviousness. Hence,
5. Nothing can be concluded from this passage in favor of Christ's dying for them that perish; since neither Christ, nor the death of Christ, nor redemption by his blood, are here once mentioned, nor in the least intended.
Nor can these words be thought to be a proof and instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints, since there is not anything said of these false teachers, which gives any reason to believe that they were true believers in Christ, or ever had the grace of the Spirit wrought in their souls.
2 PETER 2:1
by John Gill
The Cause of God and Truth, Part I, Section LIV
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.—2 Pet. 2:1.
This passage of scripture is often produced as a proof both of the saints' final and total apostasy, and of universal redemption; or that, besides those that are saved, Christ died also for them that perish. Dr. Whitby mentions the severa1 answers which different men give to these words: one saith, Christ bought these persons only to be slaves; another, that he died to rescue them from temporal, but not eternal punishments; a third, that he died for them because he gave a sufficient price for them; a fourth, that they denied that Lord whom they professed to have bought them; and a fifth, that they denied him, who, in the judgment of other men, had bought them. Upon which he observes, that they are so extravagant, that it is as easy to confute as to recite them.
1. I do not think myself concerned to defend any of these senses of the text mentioned, judging neither of them to be the meaning; of the words, and so have nothing to do with the reasonings made use of in the confutation of them; though, perhaps, the two latter are not so extravagant as represented. However, in order to give the genuine sense of this text, let it be observed,
2. That Christ is not here at all spoken of; nor is there one syllable of his dying for any persons, in any sense whatever. The word "despotes", Lord, does not design Christ, but God the Father of Christ. The only places besides this where this word is used, when applied to a divine person, are Luke 2:29, Acts 4:24, 2 Tim. 2:21, Jude ver. 4, Rev. 6:10, in all which places God the Father is plainly intended, and in most of them manifestly distinguished from Christ; nor is there anything in this text or context which obliges us to understand it of the Son of God; nor should this be thought any diminution of the glory of Christ, since the word "despotes" is properly expressive only of that power which masters have over their servants; whereas the "kurios" which is used whenever Christ is called Lord, signifies that dominion and authority which princes have over their subjects. Besides Christ is called King of kings, and Lord of lords, and the only potentate; yea, God over all, blessed forever. Moreover,
3. When these persons are said to be bought, the meaning is, not that they were redeemed by the blood of Christ, for, as is before observed, Christ is not intended. Besides, whenever redemption by Christ is spoken of, the price is usually mentioned, or some circumstance or another which fully determines the sense of it; see Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. 6:20; Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9, and 19:3-4, whereas here is not the least hint of anything of this kind. Add to this, that such who are redeemed by Christ, are never left to deny him, so as to perish eternally; for could such be lost, or bring on themselves swift destruction, Christ's purchase would be in vain, and the ransom-price be paid for nought. But,
4. The word "buying" regards temporal deliverance, and particularly the redemption of the people of Israel out of Egypt; who are therefore called the people the Lord had purchased.
The phrase is borrowed from Deut. 36:6; Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? Is not he thy Father that hath bought thee? Hath he not made thee and established thee?
Nor is this the only place the apostle Peter refers to in this chapter; see ver. 12, 13, compared with Deut. 36:5.
Now the persons the apostle writes to, were Jews, the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, a people who, in all ages, valued themselves upon, and boasted mightily of their being the bought, purchased people of the Lord;
wherefore Peter makes use of this phrase much in the same manner as Moses had done before him, to aggravate the ingratitude and impiety of these false teachers among the Jews;
that they should deny, if not in words, at least in works, that mighty Jehovah, who had of old redeemed their fathers out of Egypt, with a stretched-out arm, and, in successive ages, had distinguished them with peculiar favors;
being ungodly men, turning the grace, the doctrine of the grace of God, into lasciviousness. Hence,
5. Nothing can be concluded from this passage in favor of Christ's dying for them that perish; since neither Christ, nor the death of Christ, nor redemption by his blood, are here once mentioned, nor in the least intended.
Nor can these words be thought to be a proof and instance of the final and total apostasy of real saints, since there is not anything said of these false teachers, which gives any reason to believe that they were true believers in Christ, or ever had the grace of the Spirit wrought in their souls.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Because you read your presupposition into the text. What you just said is not there and ignores the rest of Scrpture including what Christ said himself.
37818
Well-Known Member
Any identification of the Owner and how the Owner bought them that denied their Owner is not acknowledged.
Taint so and taint so.
What does John 6:39 say? That those transferred into Christ's spiritual body will not be cast out? Did anyone say this is not true. So yet another obviously false claim.
The good shepherd gave His life for "the sheep" (John 10:11) So if "the sheep in this verse refers to those God chooses to place in Christ, that truth does not eviscerate the fact Christ's death was a ransom for all (1 Timothy 2:6) which included those heading for swift destruction (2 Peter 2:1).
LOL, this poster did not read post 98 or 99, and but I am not allowed to reflect on his indicated intelligence.
LOL, lets count the unblible or biblically illiterate claims
Christ does not provide the means of reconciliation. Propitiation provides the means of reconciliation and Christ is our propitiation.
The unnecessary comment was not deleted.
Does John 6:39 teach limited atonement (renamed definite atonement for the purpose of obfuscation)? Nope
And you are the one systemically misrepresenting my views, and you seem unable to stop.
Post 111 presents Falselogy's attempt to nullify 2 Peter 2:1. It is absurd nonsense.
Did anyone claim universal redemption, that being bought means being redeemed? How could someone be bought and still be heading for swift destruction if bought always refers only to those redeemed? It could not, so the argument is nonsense.
Did anyone claim universal redemption, that being bought means being redeemed? How could someone be bought and still be heading for swift destruction if bought always refers only to those redeemed? It could not, so the argument is nonsense.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
37818
Well-Known Member
Then you deny αντιλυτρον.
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With regard to your posts, that's absolutely right.
What does John 6:39 actually say? 'This is the will of the Father who snt Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing but raise it up at the last day.'
Nothing here about anyone being 'transferred into Christ's spiritual body.' You are reading that in. Those referred to are theey whom the Father has chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world and given to Christ to redeem (Ephesians 1:4). And they come to Christ in time although their salvation was determined 'before time began' (Titus 1:2). 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.' It is then, when they come that they are justified by faith alone and transferred into the kingdom of the beloved Son (Colossians 1:13)
Where in Scripture is it said that the Good Shepherd gave His life for the goats? If every single person is ransomed by Christ, then they are indeed ransomed, and unless there is some deficiency in the blood of Christ, they will be saved. But in the context of 1 Timothy 2:1-6, 'all' means kings and commoners, Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, pharisees and sinners, 'as many as the Lord shall call' (Romans 2:39).
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