2 peter 3:9

[Theo]

Here is an extremely solid article, and I believe it would serve well here in this converstaion:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/2wills.html

Take a peek and let me know what thinketh ye.

Theo

 

[Me2]

Ian,

You are obviously reading something other than the Bible, Me2. Christ plainly teaches that all who refuse the gospel will die in their sins and be banished from His presence. You are teaching that all will be saved - a flat denial of Christ's words. Please explain yourself.

Anyone can read this in their bible alone, if God opens their eyes to see its truth….As God has done for me.

Jesus came into this realm to receive to himself …a body.

During this event, Jesus destroys death and hell.
His sacrifice on the cross is for the covering over of all mankinds sin . not only for the firstfruits, but for all men, women and children in Gods creation.

In this age the firstfruits are being taught to forgive all of Gods enemies in the name of Christ for the future harvesting towards Gods creation. The main harvest of Gods creation will occur in the next age.

While those who ”reject” this truth are hardened and become reprobate against Gods work in this age, and remain in their carnal attitude and abide in a realm designed for them by God in this age as well as the next age to come.
This realm of reprobate spirits are said to abide in is called by man “hell”.
Yet they too, even in “hell” are taken out and judged and placed in the lake of fire making the realm of “hell” finite in time..

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Investigate the lake of fire.you would find it to be a symbol of the righteous refining fire of God.

If you would notice. Those who wrestle with scriptures have an attitudinal problem with God.
They despise the complete soveriegnty of God towards his entire creation.
They can clearly be seen holding onto their own unique brand of free will. One in which puts their will above Gods will.
as well as they can not fully determine and understand that Gods character is infinite love, mercy and forgiveness towards all men.

Me2

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Ian Major:
He needs the exact time He chose in which to save us. He determined I was to be born in 1949 and born again in 1967. I could not have been saved a moment sooner.

But have another look at the verse:

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

To whom is God long-suffering? The verse says "us". Who are the "us"? Look at who Peter is addressing:

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (2 Peter 1:1)

The "us" surely must be those who "have obtained like precious faith". They are those ALREADY saved. Therefore they CANNOT be members of the elect who are still in a state of unbelief (if we assume, for the sake of the argument, that the Bible does teach that people are elect before they are saved). Therefore your interpretation cannot (as far as I can tell) be correct. God is not longsuffering so that UNBELIEVERS can repent; he is longsuffering so that BELIEVERS can repent! This is backed up by the other verses of the chapter:

1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

The implication is that they might NOT be mindful of the commandment; and if not, of course, then they need to repent.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Again, the implication is that they might NOT be looking for the coming of the Lord; that they might NOT be in all holy conversation and godliness. And that's a problem if the Lord is coming like a thief. So God's giving them time to repent.

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Yet again, the implication is that they might NOT be found without spot before God; that they might NOT be blameless. This isn't talking about unbelievers, but believers. Believers may be found blameWORTHY when Jesus returns. So we'd better repent before then! c.f. Revelation 3:19: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

Conclusion: 2 Peter 3:9 teaches that God is long-suffering towards us believers, not willing that any should perish at the judgement seat for their evil works, but that all of us should come to repentance and live godly lives, looking for Jesus' coming.

 

[Ian Major]

Theo said,
Take a peek and let me know what thinketh ye.

Thanks for the Piper article, Theo. Excellent.

I still run with the restricted sense of 'us' in the 2Peter text, however, due to its context. But as Piper points out, that is not to deny the wider sense in other texts. The 'Two Wills' concept is one I have defended before.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Me2 said,
Jesus came into this realm to receive to himself …a body.

Yes, in both a physical and spiritual sense; His flesh and His Bride.

During this event, Jesus destroys death and hell.

Agreed.

His sacrifice on the cross is for the covering over of all mankinds sin . not only for the firstfruits, but for all men, women and children in Gods creation.

If you mean it actually covered the sin of every person without exception, then NO - many will die in their sins.

In this age the firstfruits are being taught to forgive all of Gods enemies in the name of Christ for the future harvesting towards Gods creation. The main harvest of Gods creation will occur in the next age.

Not sure what you mean. But the 'harvest' of souls is shown by Scripture in two senses: One is the bringing in to the church of the elect by the preaching of the gospel now; the other is the bringing into God's presence the Church by the angels on the Last Day.

While those who ”reject” this truth are hardened and become reprobate against Gods work in this age, and remain in their carnal attitude and abide in a realm designed for them by God in this age as well as the next age to come.

Agreed.

This realm of reprobate spirits are said to abide in is called by man “hell”.

Agreed.

Yet they too, even in “hell” are taken out and judged and placed in the lake of fire making the realm of “hell” finite in time..

Agreed. Hades is finite.

Investigate the lake of fire.you would find it to be a symbol of the righteous refining fire of God.

THIS is where you err. Gehenna is not a refining fire, implying that its occupants will emerge clean, but rather where those in it perish eternally. They are tormented day and night forever and ever, Rev. 20:10; The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, Rev.14:11.

... Gods character is infinite love, mercy and forgiveness towards all men.

Again, this is plainly contrary to the Scriptures. These things can only be said of God's elect. The rest experience much of God's goodness and long-suffering in this life, but eventuallyHis patience comes to an end and they are cut off in their sin. On the Day of Judgement, the lost are cast out of His presence and go away into everlasting punishment Matt.25:46.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Bartolomew said,
The "us" surely must be those who "have obtained like precious faith". They are those ALREADY saved. Therefore they CANNOT be members of the elect who are still in a state of unbelief (if we assume, for the sake of the argument, that the Bible does teach that people are elect before they are saved). Therefore your interpretation cannot (as far as I can tell) be correct. God is not longsuffering so that UNBELIEVERS can repent; he is longsuffering so that BELIEVERS can repent! This is backed up by the other verses of the chapter:

To deny Peter's use of 'us' to include the believers of every time, is surely unwarrented. Take any of the letters of the NT and apply that to them. An example, Paul's use of 'us' in Ephesians 2, 4But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Can we really say he means only the Christians he wrote to, and not those of every time?

Conclusion: 2 Peter 3:9 teaches that God is long-suffering towards us believers, not willing that any should perish at the judgement seat for their evil works, but that all of us should come to repentance and live godly lives, looking for Jesus' coming.

We agree, as far as this statement goes anyway. But behind this statement you seem to be saying that true believers can actually perish for their sins. Now that is totally unscriptural. We have passed from judgement unto life, as far as eternity is concerned. All the punishment for our sins was borne by Christ. IN THIS LIFE only, we are disciplined for our sins, SO THAT we may not be condemned with the world, 1 Cor.11:32.

In Him

Ian

 

[Me2]

Peters letters referr to paul writings being paralled with his ideas and yet also being hard to understand.

2Pe 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

the unrest and destruction brought by the letters of Paul is referring to the will of those not initially accepting nor understanding Gods plans. specifically those whom God will express wrath towards. as we go Back to romans ch 9-11.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Paul represents the jews of the OT law as those vessels of wrath. as he represents gentiles called as vessels of mercy. the difficulty here is viewing all together who have been given the seed of God and the results at the final judgement. here some express evil intentions in their earthly lives as others expressed merciful and good intentions.
although all contain Gods seed within them (law).
those shown mercy are considered saved in their final judgement, AS WELL AS THOSE ORIGINALLY EXPRESSED WRATH.

peter states that the lord shows longsuffering to all that seek repentence. paralleling pauls conclusions of God. it shows that God eventually judges all with mercy. as the laws design is to deliver everyone into spiritual death.
where the judgement of the carnal spirit and the propitiation and exchange of Christs righteous spirit with the sinner is finalized.

as paul states. the vessels of wrath and mercy are shown no partiality for it is Gods design of expressing mercy to both groups called to fulfill his intentions.

all called of God, both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy are given the righteousness of Christ spirit in the end of Gods longsuffering towards them.

this is the unrest and destruction of those not accepting this plan of God. that the desires of those wanting God to judge the enemies of righteousness without mercy is foiled.

Me2

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Ian Major:
To deny Peter's use of 'us' to include the believers of every time, is surely unwarrented. Take any of the letters of the NT and apply that to them.

I totally agree. However, here is our difference: I say that, just as God was long-suffering towards the believers of Peter's day, he is also longsuffering towards believers now. But you seem to be saying that he isn't really long-suffering towards believers at all - that he's really long-suffering towards elect UNbeievers. And as I tried to show, the passage is about the BELIEVERS.

But behind this statement you seem to be saying that true believers can actually perish for their sins.

Of course! If you accept that the passage is addressed to believers, what else can it mean?

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Why is God longsuffering? So that all can come to repentence! Why does he want them to come to repentence? So they won't perish! The CLEAR implication is that if they DON'T repent, they WILL perish. And if you agree that "us-ward" means "the believers Peter was writing to" (and by extension all believers), then it must be THEY who will perish if they do not repent. The passage is clear: whoever the "us-ward" refers to, if they do not repent then the "perish" refers to them, too.

IN THIS LIFE only, we are disciplined for our sins,

Sadly, this is not borne out by scripture. It is an entirely man-made view (as far as I can tell), without a single verse to support it. However, I know of many verses that suggest otherwise. [N.B. I am NOT teaching a saved person can be punished for all infinity. I'm saying he can be punished at the judgment seat of Christ, and throughout the millennium.]

SO THAT we may not be condemned with the world, 1 Cor.11:32.

Ah, but look carefully:

"But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."

Of course, we SHOULD not be condemned with the world. But that is conditional. If we despise the chastening of the Lord, don't keep his commandments, and do not repent, then I suggest we WILL be condemened with the world. Indeed, on the LAST day, no believer will be condemned with the world - but on that day, he will have responded to 1000 years of chastening! But 1000 years BEFORE the last day, he can be condemened with the world:

"But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:45-46)

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ian;

We agree, man has a choice. He will choose according to his nature, the desires of his heart. Do you accept this?

No I do not. Man has a conscience. A conscience that God placed within man and when man hears the gospel and God chooses to draw him. The Holy Spirit works on man to bring about conviction of His sins. This conviction can influence man to come to Christ. Some men feel they will have to give up to much to come, (The hearts of the wealthy). Some are To embarrassed to come for fear of what there friends will think,( will they be made fun of). While a few won't care anymore about there possessions. A few will be so over wrought with the convictions of there sins and feeling so helpless that there not thinking about pleasing God so that He will save them but are coming to Him for help. I knew full well I could do nothing to save my self I was on my knees begging God to help me I was submitting to Him. Yes I was hoping that He would feel pity for me and my miserable self. This was my choice to do this. Not His. And yes it was the work of the Holy Spirit.
Wasn't your experience similar?
I know one thing for sure. You can't come to Him with out humility and a broken spirit. This is what conviction does it breaks down your false image of your self and shows you who you really are and the consequences of how your living. No one wants to face it. God has provided an escape from those consequences for you. Are we going to give in and surrender, or go forward and deny those consequences are real?.
Yes I made a decision to believe in Christ, and you're telling me that it can't be done. Well I did.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Ian Major]

Me2,

I am having great difficulty understanding your posts. However, let me focus on one statement that perhaps distills your argument:
all called of God, both vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy are given the righteousness of Christ spirit in the end of Gods longsuffering towards them.

This completely ignores the stated intention of God, Rom.9: 22What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION for one group; PREPARED FOR GLORY for the other.

But especially, you have ignored the plain statements of Scripture, examples of which I have given, that declare the eternal destruction of the wicked. Please explain these verses for us:

Rev.20:10The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev.14: 11And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Matt.25: 46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Bartholomew said,
I totally agree. However, here is our difference: I say that, just as God was long-suffering towards the believers of Peter's day, he is also longsuffering towards believers now. But you seem to be saying that he isn't really long-suffering towards believers at all - that he's really long-suffering towards elect UNbeievers. And as I tried to show, the passage is about the BELIEVERS.

Yes, the issue is whether 'us' refers to all God's people down the ages - the elect - or only to those at any particular time who have already come to faith. I believe it most naturally speaks of the elect.

Why is God longsuffering? So that all can come to repentence! Why does he want them to come to repentence? So they won't perish! The CLEAR implication is that if they DON'T repent, they WILL perish. And if you agree that "us-ward" means "the believers Peter was writing to" (and by extension all believers), then it must be THEY who will perish if they do not repent. The passage is clear: whoever the "us-ward" refers to, if they do not repent then the "perish" refers to them, too.

Yes, IF we don't repent we will persih. THAT is precisely why God does not immediately bring the End - that the elect WILL be saved.

The conditionality of the elect's salvation does not mean some of them will perish - God Himself ensures that the conditions (continuance in repentance and faith) are fulfilled.

Sadly, this is not borne out by scripture. It is an entirely man-made view (as far as I can tell), without a single verse to support it. However, I know of many verses that suggest otherwise. [N.B. I am NOT teaching a saved person can be punished for all infinity. I'm saying he can be punished at the judgment seat of Christ, and throughout the millennium.]

Is not 'absent from the body, present with the Lord' the lot of every believer? 2 Cor.5:8.

Let me ask also, where in this system of purgatory, does the Christian go before the Millenium? Is he with the Lord and then cast into the outer darkness?

Of course, we SHOULD not be condemned with the world. But that is conditional. If we despise the chastening of the Lord, don't keep his commandments, and do not repent, then I suggest we WILL be condemened with the world. Indeed, on the LAST day, no believer will be condemned with the world - but on that day, he will have responded to 1000 years of chastening! But 1000 years BEFORE the last day, he can be condemened with the world:

My comments on conditionality above apply here too. But consider something from that great letter warning of the dangers of apsotasy, Hebrews. The contrast is not between bliss and a temporary punishment in a millenium, but between bliss and permanent punishment in gehenna. Heb.10: 39But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

A condition is required for salvation - endurance, v36. Without that, the reader will go to perdition. Of course, the warning is God's MEANS for establishing His END, the perseverance of the saints.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Mike said,
The Holy Spirit works on man to bring about conviction of His sins. This conviction can influence man to come to Christ. Some men feel they will have to give up to much to come, (The hearts of the wealthy). Some are To embarrassed to come for fear of what there friends will think,( will they be made fun of). While a few won't care anymore about there possessions. A few will be so over wrought with the convictions of there sins and feeling so helpless that there not thinking about pleasing God so that He will save them but are coming to Him for help. I

I agree with all this. My point is, what causes us to decide one way or the other? We may have dispassionately weighed the evidence; we may be deeply moved by the evidence in favour of the gospel; we may be deeply worried about the consequences of obeying the gospel; etc. But decision time comes and we must make a choice (Calvinists DO believe man makes a choice). What is it that causes us either to reject Christ or to obey Him? Do we toss a coin in our mind? Do we choose what seems best to gain favour with man? Or even just to escape Hell? Or do we grieve for our newly discovered sinfulness; for our separation from the One True God; for God having to send His Son to the cross to bear the Hell of all who trust in Him? Do we fear the certainty of the judgement to come? Do we believe God's promise of salvation to all who come? Are we ready to forsake all and follow Him?

Mike, it is the love of our heart that causes us to make the choice: if we love the world more than Christ, we will certainly decide to reject Him; If we love him more than the treasures of Egypt, we will certainly accept Him. [I leave out of this the case of the false professor, as he only appears to be in the believer's camp, but is in reality still as much an unbeliever as before].

Two sorts of heart. We are all born with the hard, Christ-rejecting sort. But God gives to His people a new heart, a heart of flesh, so that they certainly will accept Christ at His appointed time.

You have the sinner responding to the gospel with a neutral heart, and that is not what the Scripture tells us about our condition as men.


Every Blessing to you, Mike

In Him

Ian

 

[Me2]

Hello Ian,

the vessels of wraths "works" are burned up.

the "works" that they commit that have been prepared for them to partake of.
destruction means their works are covered over when the truth is taught to them and they understand that what they have done is against themselves, man and God.

much as any sinning against the law.

truth must be acknowledged and error disputed and discarded. sin, or error is destroyed.

yet "destroyed" is incorrect. error will always exist as well as truth will. evil will always exist as well as good. the power of one overagainst the other will also exist. proving that one is stonger than the other. one can be considered condemned or considered under condemnation as opposed to the others acceptance.

"burned up" is a description. much like a hard choice thought over with much grievance or suffering of conclusion.

God always speaks two messages to man. God speaks of destroying the works of mans carnal spirit as well as simultaneously speaking of resurrecting the fallen man into Glory by covering over error with the righteousness of another.

It is God who placed mankind in death and it is God who rescues mankind by the propitiation of his righteous atonement which covers all mankinds effects while in death.

in Romans God calls two vessels to express the doctrine of the firstborn. meaning one will die for another. the vessels of mercy die for the vessels of wrath.
(the vessels of wrath are never forgotten of God, yet he chooses to display openly towards mankind the knowledge of Evil that mankind receive the understanding and difference between the knowledge of Good.)
he has to choose someone to display this knowledge of evil.
yet the opposite choice would necessitate the vessels of mercy TO EVENTUALLY FORGIVE SUCH ACTIVITIES TO RETURN THEM BACK INTO FAVOR FOR THE GLORY OF GOD.
for this is the character of God. Infinite mercy.

thus in rom 11 the mercy shown towards the vessels of wrath by the vessels of mercy.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

this is in direct correlation with 2 Peter 3:9

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


as it describes the longsuffering of the lord for the repentence and conclusion of this display of God expression of infinite forgiveness and mercy to his creation. but as you see the message within the context also includes the destruction of the works of the carnal spirit. the dual message.

yet do you think God will abandon the soul he chose to be the vessel of wrath? God forbid.

the question always that the reader should notice and ask themselves is what is the character of God and What are his plans for mankind.

peter is focusing on the longsuffering towards repentence of those called of God within the plan. those called would include the vessels of mercy as well as vessels of wrath.

again what was destined to be destroyed was the carnal spirits works. while the vessels of mercy's carnal spirit was destroyed with its works beforehand. the vessels of wrath's carnal works are extended in their judgement and used of God for his purposes.

example: a vessel of wraths works is to demand someone to follow the law. they are being a servant of God by delivering the newbie carnal spirit into death.
where the vessel of mercy is to provide mercy and forgiveness afterwhich the newbie is delivered into spiritual death and judged.

yet the method used by the vessel of wrath is not honestly forthcoming. (such as to "convict" one by intimidation and fear. "your going to hell and God is going to torment you there forever and ever and youll never get out".)
those are sort of the works burned up. the use of fear and intimidation overagainst another. this can be considered "adultry" or "covetousness".

there is something that must be taken into thought. that as the vessels of mercy and wrath are being called today. their use will be specifically towards the next age. they are being trained in their attitude towards truth and error today. as in the next age their attitude will be solidified and unchanging until the end of the age where the vessels of wrath will be able to receive mercy and change their viewpoint towards truth.

back to the longsuffering of the lord. Do you realize that the longsuffering of the lord is identical to the longsuffering of the vessels of mercy. they are also holding out that the vessels of wrath come to repentence as well.

your just not noticing that the promise of the Lord to the vessels of mercy is concerning the longsuffering of the lord towards the vessels of wrath.

Me2

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Ian Major:
Yes, the issue is whether 'us' refers to all God's people down the ages - the elect - or only to those at any particular time who have already come to faith. I believe it most naturally speaks of the elect.

Why? Peter writes:

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" (2 Peter 1:1)

Besides, the verse in question (2 Peter 3:9) implies that the "us" WILL perish if they don't repent. You seem to agree:

Yes, IF we don't repent we will persih.

But (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to be saying very clearly that this longsuffering towards "us" is so that those elect who do not believe will repent and be saved. But that would mean the "longsuffering" refered only to those who do not believe at the present time (for in your view only those in a state of unbelief can perish). Thus in practice you believe it refers only to the UNBELIEVING elect; whilst I believe it refers to the BELIEVING elect (though my view would make just as much sense if I applied it to unbleiving elect as well, though I don't think the Bible ever talks about unbelievers as 'elect'). My position is simply this: whoever the "us" are, the possibility exists for them to perish - this is why God is longsuffering. If this is not true, the passage makes no sense. Therefore if believers cannot perish, they cannot be included in the "us", which I think is obviously not the case. Again, I direct you to my post on the previous page, where I looked at some of the other verses in the same chapter to show this applied to the belivers.

Is not 'absent from the body, present with the Lord' the lot of every believer? 2 Cor.5:8.

I believe so. But look at the context of that verse:

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Let me ask also, where in this system of purgatory,

This is not purgatory. However, it is easy to see how the Catholics perverted this teaching INTO purgatory when they dispensed with premillennialism and started adding works to eternal salvation.

does the Christian go before the Millenium? Is he with the Lord and then cast into the outer darkness?

I think so. I think 2 Cor 5:9 above makes it clear that it is possible to be present with the Lord, and yet NOT accepted.

But consider something from that great letter warning of the dangers of apsotasy, Hebrews. The contrast is not between bliss and a temporary punishment in a millenium, but between bliss and permanent punishment in gehenna.

I disagree. I think Hebrews is by-and-large about the kingdom. It is filled with warnings to people who it calls "brethren", etc. Also, look at Hebrews 2:

1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

The "world to come" is the millennial kingdom. That the word "salvation" can mean something other than salvation in all eternity (which is by grace through faith), see Romans 13:11:

"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed."

In conclusion, God is longsuffering towards US (believers). If WE (believers) don't repent, WE (believers) will perish!

 

[Ian Major]

Me2 said
the vessels of wraths "works" are burned up.

The vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction, not their works. Check the text: NO mention of their works. Likewise with the texts I gave you concerning Gehenna - it is people who are being tormented, not works. Please show how these texts can be explained in any other way.

Me2, you have given a long list of merely human ideas. Where is the Scripture for them? And how do you explain the Scripture against them?

THIS is the test, not what man may think but what God says. Please, please, defend your views from Scripture or abandon them as worldly wisdom.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Bartholomew said
My position is simply this: whoever the "us" are, the possibility exists for them to perish - this is why God is longsuffering. If this is not true, the passage makes no sense. Therefore if believers cannot perish, they cannot be included in the "us", which I think is obviously not the case.

IF the elect do not repent and believe they will spend eternity in hell. Does that mean it is possible for them do do such a thing? NEVER. Being the elect, they WILL unfailingly repent and believe. Like wise in this text, God's longsuffering is one of the means God uses for our certain salvation. He won't bring the End until every last one of the elect are brought in.


Where, I had asked, does the Christian go before the Millenium? Is he with the Lord and then cast into the outer darkness?. To which you replied, I think so. I think 2 Cor 5:9 above makes it clear that it is possible to be present with the Lord, and yet NOT accepted.

I think your reading of 2 Cor.5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. is faulty. The 'may', in so far as it is conditional, is related to the present world. The natural understanding of this verse is that we will be accepted of Him here just as surely as there, if we walk worthy.

The "world to come" is the millennial kingdom. That the word "salvation" can mean something other than salvation in all eternity (which is by grace through faith), see Romans 13:11:

I disagree on both. The use in Scripture contrasts this age with the one to come. Eternity. Hebrews is about that age. Failure to enter that rest means eternal destruction, not temporary chastisement, just as it did for the unbelievers coming out of Egypt.

Likewise, 'salvation' is Rom.13:11 is our eternal salvation, not some earthly rescue.

But back to 2 Peter. That is one of the strongest texts against a future temporal millenium. The very description excludes the idea.
2 Peter 3: 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[3] 11Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Instead of a millenium, especially one during which millions of Christians are enduring torment in the outer darkness, the return of our Lord Jesus Christ will bring our eternal home, the new heavens and a new earth.

In Him

Ian

 

[Me2]

Ian Major,

Me2 said
the vessels of wraths "works" are burned up.

The vessels of wrath are prepared for destruction, not their works. Check the text: NO mention of their works. Likewise with the texts I gave you concerning Gehenna - it is people who are being tormented, not works. Please show how these texts can be explained in any other way.

a vessel of mercy is a resurrected spirit that is contained by a resurrected vessel (spirit body)
a vessel of wrath is a non resurrected spirit and non resurrected vessel (non-resurrected spirit body)

God destroys all carnal spirits: mind, body, and spirit. every human being except the resurrected Man, Jesus Christ.

all "christians" were carnal, (mind, body and spirit) before we became vessels of mercy.
In other words, we were all vessels of wrath before we became vessels of mercy.
Such as are the vessels of wrath being spoken of… they havent been judged yet. they havent received a resurrected spirit, body, nor "regenerated" mind

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

When one thinks about this. when we receive the seed of God. it is the law within us uncovering “works of our carnal spirit” to be judged.
Enough of these uncovered sins draws us to the conclusion that we cannot defeat these effects of our carnal spirits choices against God.
We must succumb to the mercies of God.
We are as Gods enemies to be judged and our carnal spirit is destroyed in spiritual death and in death our souls are joined to the righteous spirit of Christ and resurrected.

the vessels of wrath spoken of have not succumb to the mercy of God. They havent been judged of God…Yet
All men are brought into spiritual death BY THE LAW..They Are Judged of God. And they are all covered by the righteous Blood of Gods Lamb…Just as the firstborn.,
God is not partial. He treats all men alike.
All are judged and all are atoned for..

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Now your (hell) Gehenna comment.

If this be the same hell that the vessels of wrath are prepared for then it’s the same hell that the dead are emptied out from into the Lake of Fire.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Before the GWT judgement. the dead from death and hell arrive to be judged. Notice one thing here. This is the dead as those who have been delivered into spiritual death via Gods law.
The same spiritual death everyone (christians) is appointed to be delivered into and delivered by the same method. The conviction of the Law.
Hell is the place prepared for those ARE NOT spiritually dead, but held as reprobates of God, until their appointed time to be delivered unto spiritual death.
they also will be delivered into spiritual death and be judged. Everyone follows the same pattern. The law convicts every person of sin.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Remember God is Not partial. Whatever happens to one happens to all. Jesus died for the souls of mankind. All men are delivered into spiritual death All Men are Judged and found Guilty before God by failing to follow Gods holy Law.
All will be resurrected by the joining of the resurrected spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ.

They second death is not the enemy of God. It is the righteousness of God. It is the knowledge of Good overcoming the power of the knowledge of Evil. Where the souls of Men are not destroyed. Their souls receive Eternal Life.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

All souls from Adam to the last human being born are washed in the righteousness of God. This is the next age where Gods creation is taught righteousness through the Sons of God.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The next age is the harvesting of Gods creation wether your on the giving end, or the receiving end.. wether you’re a participating king and priest. A new believer, or a vessel of wrath prepared to spread error among the people as some predesigned “demon” of God plans.

As this is where we return back to peters statements.where even the vessels of wrath will come to repentence. For it is the will of the Lord as well as the father that any should perish

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God is not partial.
He hates unjust balances
Everyone is treated exactly the same. Vessels of mercy as well as vessels of wrath.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (vessels of mercy!)
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (vessels of Wrath!)

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

(vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath)

Me2

 

[Bartholomew]

Hi Ian,

I still do not think you have shown us from the text why the "us" who will perish (if they don't repent) are unbelivers. Rather, the whole context surely demands that they are believers, and I therefore think my premise that believers may perish must stand.

I think your reading of 2 Cor.5: 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. is faulty. The 'may', in so far as it is conditional, is related to the present world. The natural understanding of this verse is that we will be accepted of Him here just as surely as there, if we walk worthy.

I totally disagree. How can the "may" refer to the present world? The text says,

"Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him."

Obviously, the possibility of not being accepted is there, whether present OR absent! Also check out the context, and you'll see the reason why we might not be accepted is because God is going to judge our works!

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

The use in Scripture contrasts this age with the one to come. Eternity. Hebrews is about that age. Failure to enter that rest means eternal destruction, not temporary chastisement, just as it did for the unbelievers coming out of Egypt.

The age to come is the millennial Kingdom of God. Rev 20 makes this clear, as does Jesus in all his references to the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven. Hebrews is also all about this kingdom. As for those who came out of Egypt, notice:

1. They were redeemed by the blood of a lamb,
2. They were brought out of slavery in Egypt,
3. They were commanded to go and fight, and God would give them the victory,
4. They refused to do what God said,
5. God revoked the promise of the promised land,
6. They were banished to the wilderness, during which time...
7. They were still God's chosen people,
8. God was still with them,
9. They never went back to slavery in Egypt,
10. But they perished outside the promised land.
11. Only those who put their lives on the line and trusted God enough were allowed in.

Notice the amazing typology to the NT kingdom teaching? Now see 1 Cor 10 and Hebrew 3-4 for Biblical affirmation of this parallel.

Likewise, 'salvation' is Rom.13:11 is our eternal salvation, not some earthly rescue.

The salvation in Rom 13:11 is something future; somehting that the saved don't currently possess. I think it is similar in Hebrews.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Yes it will be burned... but will it be utterly annihilated? Notice Rev 20, when it talks about the final end of the universe, talks about it "fleeing away" because there was no place left for it. It doesn't just burn. Actually, the context supports this, because verses 5 and 6 just compared this to Noah's flood, which wreaked havoc with water, but yet did not mean there was no earth left to repopulate. Notice also that the emphasis seems to be on performing enduring works (as per Matt 6:19-20), rather than works of this world, which will burn up (as per 1 Cor 3).

11Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Quite!

13Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

1. It doesn't say this new heaven and earth follows directly after Christ's return - it simply says we look for it.
2. Even if it does follow directly after His return, it may still not be the final new heaven and earth, but may refer to the millennium. After all, Isaiah 65:17 talks about a "new heavens and a new earth", and yet verse 20 tells us there will be death there, and also accursed sinners. Obviouly, then, this can't be the "new heaven and new earth" of Rev 21, so must be something else. And I suggest that, just like 2 Peter 3 above, it's talking about the millennium.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Ian;

Mike, it is the love of our heart that causes us to make the choice: if we love the world more than Christ, we will certainly decide to reject Him; If we love him more than the treasures of Egypt, we will certainly accept Him. [I leave out of this the case of the false professor, as he only appears to be in the believer's camp, but is in reality still as much an unbeliever as before].

I would say that it wasn't so much my Love, as it was Christ's Love. It was His Love that is the main reason I love Him. He offered forgiveness for all the things I had done. I hadn't made any restitution. I hadn't done anything that dissevered forgiveness. He invited me and I accepted. Short that it was. It was the sweetest of all I have experienced. Trully changing me from the inside out.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

[Ian Major]

Me2

I want to keep this simple, so I will focus on key issues rather than answer all the points that arise.

God is not partial. He treats all men alike.

Wrong. He treats all men as they deserve. Rom.2: 5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

Note the eternal differences between the state of one man and another.

If this be the same hell that the vessels of wrath are prepared for then it’s the same hell that the dead are emptied out from into the Lake of Fire.

Not so. Hades is the remand prison for the wicked dead. Gehenna is their ultimate destination. Some English translations confusingly render both as 'hell'.

All will be resurrected by the joining of the resurrected spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wrong. All will be resurrected, but for some it will be for eternal life, for others, eternal death. John 5: 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

As this is where we return back to peters statements.where even the vessels of wrath will come to repentence. For it is the will of the Lord as well as the father that any should perish

This just begs the question. My response is the same - the 'any' is 'us', i.e., God is not willing that any of the elect perish, therefore He holds back Judgement Day until every last sheep is brought in.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (vessels of mercy!)
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (vessels of Wrath!)

You are confusing children of wrath with vessels of wrath. We all were the former. But Paul's analogy of vessels is quite separate. All unbelievers are not vessels of wrath; some are, but some are vessels of mercy, even if yet in their 'children of wrath' state. 'Vessels' refers to man's predestined goal. God has prepared some for wrath, some for glory.

In Him

Ian