2 peter 3:9

[Ian Major]

Bartholomew said
I still do not think you have shown us from the text why the "us" who will perish (if they don't repent) are unbelivers. Rather, the whole context surely demands that they are believers, and I therefore think my premise that believers may perish must stand.

I didn't say they are unbeleivers - quite the reverse. My point was that 'us' are the elect, and the text is saying God is not willing that any of them would perish. THEREFORE He holds back the Day of Judgement until every last one of them is saved.

I totally disagree. How can the "may" refer to the present world? The text says, "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." Obviously, the possibility of not being accepted is there, whether present OR absent! Also check out the context, and you'll see the reason why we might not be accepted is because God is going to judge our works!

'May' can be conditional for the present without being so when present with the Lord, as the text can naturally be understood as saying that we labour to be accepted of Him in the present life even as we will when we are with Him.

The judgement is of us based on our works, i.e., our lives will declare the reality of our faith. So I regard this judgement as no different from the judgement mentioned in Matt.25 - the General Judgement. The eternal state of two sorts of men are confirmed, not a temporary discipline of erring believers.

The age to come is the millennial Kingdom of God. Rev 20 makes this clear, as does Jesus in all his references to the Kingdom of God/Kingdom of Heaven. Hebrews is also all about this kingdom.

The kingdom of God is not a millenial kingdom where saint and sinner mingle: 1 Cor.6: 9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[1] nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

The kingdom of which the Lord speaks, and to which Hebrews refers, is an unshakeable kingdom, not one culminating in world-wide rebellion.

The symbolism of Revelation cannot be made to override the plain teachings of the rest of Scripture. Any difficulties we have in reconciling them must allow that the symbolic meaning is to conform with the plain teaching, not the other way around.

As for those who came out of Egypt, notice: 1. They were redeemed by the blood of a lamb,

This and the other points you listed fail to understand that Israel the nation was NOT redeemed in the crucial spiritual sense. It was typically redeemed, but only those of Abraham's faith actually were redeemed. The whole system of the Law typified the righteousness of Christ and His atonement. It did not actually save anyone (as I'm sure you agree). So the unbelievers who fell inthe desert are types of the unbelievers who will fall on the Day of Judgement, not of erring believers who will be chastised for a time.

The salvation in Rom 13:11 is something future; somehting that the saved don't currently possess. I think it is similar in Hebrews.

Yes, but only because we are not in our resurrection bodies yet. Not because this salvation has not already begun in us.

Yes it will be burned... but will it be utterly annihilated? Notice Rev 20, when it talks about the final end of the universe, talks about it "fleeing away" because there was no place left for it. It doesn't just burn. Actually, the context supports this, because verses 5 and 6 just compared this to Noah's flood, which wreaked havoc with water, but yet did not mean there was no earth left to repopulate. Notice also that the emphasis seems to be on performing enduring works (as per Matt 6:19-20), rather than works of this world, which will burn up (as per 1 Cor 3).

Yes, 'burn' does not exhaust the description. But it is certainly not the continuance of the present heavens and earth. It is a NEW heavens and a NEW earth, where righteous dwells - not where it co-exists with evil but suppressed hearts. Yes also, evil and foolish works of men will be utterly consumed, just as the present corrupted heavens and earth.

1. It doesn't say this new heaven and earth follows directly after Christ's return - it simply says we look for it.

An awful big ommission, if this millenium is the subject of all the kingdom of God references you mentioned.

2. Even if it does follow directly after His return, it may still not be the final new heaven and earth, but may refer to the millennium. After all, Isaiah 65:17 talks about a "new heavens and a new earth", and yet verse 20 tells us there will be death there, and also accursed sinners. Obviouly, then, this can't be the "new heaven and new earth" of Rev 21, so must be something else. And I suggest that, just like 2 Peter 3 above, it's talking about the millennium.

Two New Heavens and New Earths! I think the difficulty millenialism throws up can be resolved if we remember the typical nature of a lot of OT prophecy. Isaiah 60:19,20 for example, speaks of God's people no longer needing the sun or moon for light, for God will be that for them. Yet it is given in a context similar to your millenium. But the description is of the eternal state as expressed in Rev.21:22ff.

In Him

Ian

 

[Me2]

Ian Major,

Me2 stated: God is not partial. He treats all men alike.

Ian Major replied: Wrong. He treats all men as they deserve. Rom.2: 5But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God.

Note the eternal differences between the state of one man and another.

The only eternal existence would be that of righteousness within Jesus Christ.
for it is Jesus who fills all compartments of existence. Both in heaven and earth.

This statements made in response is concerning a snapshot in finite time.
If one were to look at the end results of those designated as vessels of wrath.
One would discover mercy being applied without partiality as was previously applied to the vessels of mercy.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

as far as tribulation towards the souls of those being designated to be vessels of wrath. All men receive tribulation in life for we all must learn and experience the knowledge of Good and Evil. We all are seperated from Gods infinite love temporarily, yet he sets the distance. mankind is never too far away that he cannot rescue anyone.

Now as far as the deeds that carnal mankind produces. My belief are that God is sovereign and it is Him alone that sets the “training events” in my life. sometimes I cause good and evil and others react. And others times it is others that causes the good and evil and I react.
The point is towards my observations and participation in understanding myself as man and understanding Gods nature and his plans.
I believe man is not responsible for his deeds, but is accountable, because of his existence and participation in Life.

Not so. Hades is the remand prison for the wicked dead. Gehenna is their ultimate destination. Some English translations confusingly render both as 'hell'.

sorry, but my understanding of this “place of punishment” often spoke in religious circles as that of the selfsame “hell” that is emptied of its occupants and the thrown into the “lake of fire and brimstone” as an empty carcass of something that once served a purpose. (rev 20:14)

The bible also states that it is the resurrection of the righteous sacrifice that abolishes all enemies of God.which is death and hell. (2 tim 1:10)(eph 2:15)

Is it that hard to correlate the lake of fire with the resurrection power of God?
That the lake of Fire and brimstone represents something of RIGHTEOUSNESS?.

Wrong. All will be resurrected, but for some it will be for eternal life, for others, eternal death. John 5: 28Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

is this a reference to the 1000 years where the roles of the vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath are displayed?
because if this was a final statement of God towards mankind. Then God would be stating that He IS partial and will reward some because he chooses them to receive rewards and condemn others because he CHOOSE THEM TO RECEIVE CONDEMNATION.

No way!. this has to be a partial view of the more larger plan of God. This isnt infinite love towards Gods enemies?

One needs to take a BIG step backwards to see a fuller view of Gods plans.. Temporarily it would appear as one group is being treated unfairly. Yet from the beginning of his plans of mankind. He choose some to fulfill the role of vessels of wrath and some to fulfill roles of vessels of mercy to SAVE ALL in the expression of one group dying for the other.

Fully bringing into reality that one dying for another is right in Gods eyes. Fully expressing The law of the firstborn. Fully explaining one (jesus Christ) dying for his ENEMIES!!!.

The vessels of mercy (body of Christ) dying for the vessels of wrath.

Me2 states: As this is where we return back to peters statements.where even the vessels of wrath will come to repentence. For it is the will of the Lord as well as the father that any should perish

Ian responds: This just begs the question. My response is the same - the 'any' is 'us', i.e., God is not willing that any of the elect perish, therefore He holds back Judgement Day until every last sheep is brought in.

Brought in where? Sounds like the church being raptured before God whopping mankind for being so bad!.

This is the finite vision of the religious carnal mindset. Yet the mindset of God is the same as the elect. The elect yearns for all men everywhere being treated as themselves. All receiving the same eternal life of their creator.

Please don’t confuse God destroying mans carnal spirit and deeds with the salvation of mens souls. The soul of all men experiences both the occupation and slavery of the carnal as well as the righteous spirit. the message here in peter is that God destroys the works of the carnal spirit.

did you forget that it is God who destroyed YOUR Carnal spirit and works. Now it is their turn as it had been delayed temporary by God until their appointed time to be judged.

just as it was with my and your appointed time..but there is the other side of the story here that grabs the true lover of men. Not only the destruction of the carnal spirit with its defined works.
But it is also the ressurection of the newly judged soul. All men appointed to spiritually die of their carnal spirit. all men appointed to be judged of their carnal spirit works. All men are ressurected by the righteousness sacrifice of Gods son. Why?…because the law of the firstborn. One dies for another. In this case.

1Co 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You are confusing children of wrath with vessels of wrath. We all were the former. But Paul's analogy of vessels is quite separate. All unbelievers are not vessels of wrath; some are, but some are vessels of mercy, even if yet in their 'children of wrath' state. 'Vessels' refers to man's predestined goal. God has prepared some for wrath, some for glory.

no confusion here. Vessels of mercy are those “representing” the resurrected body of Christ in the next age. Not all who believe in the resurrected christ in heaven today are a part of this spirit body. It is specifically about those chosen to be of the young men and fathers understanding of Gods nature and Plans to be fulfilled. no “children or babes in christ”. one can witness this as observing those “knowing” that they themselves have received the resurrected spirit within themselves denoting that they have also been resurrected from spiritual death.
1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

not merely coming as a man in human history, but has come as a resurrected spirit of God into their flesh. Major difference!
As well as those vessels of wrath. These are identified as particularly been chosen, hardened reprobates by God himself to fulfill the role of the adversary in the next age to come. In the bible, those who have resurrected spirits can identify those who are of these prechosen and trained to be their opponents.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

again, those who confess not that the RESURRECTED SPIRIT OF THE GOD/MAN JESUS CHRIST IS IN THEIR BODY.
Others notes would be in the absence of understanding in their doctrine. Wether it be the lack of sovereignty that man gives God or the infinite love of God that man cannot imagine God possessing towards his enemies.

This is another shortsightedness of both calvin and arminius. They both didn’t see the love of god towards his enemies. That He died for all of them. And Not just some.

I start with the completed goals of God and see that “eternal anywheres” other than being in complete righteousness is completely off the mark.

Jesus fills death and hell. He fill the lake of Fire. He completely defeated sin with righteousness..

He represents all of man as their firstborn. The firstborn from the dead. the firstborn into eternal life. He dies for all.

Look at the complete here picture Ian, Not a small snapshot within the entire plan.

Me2

 

[Me2]

double post

 

[Kiffin]

It should be noted that not all Calvinists agree on their interpretation on 2 Peter 3:9. I have not read all posts in this thread but here is John Calvin's commentary on 2 Peter 3:9,

So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.
But it may be asked, If God wishes none to perish, why is it that so many do perish? To this my answer is, that no mention is here made of the hidden purpose of God, according to which the reprobate are doomed to their own ruin, but only of his will as made known to us in the gospel. For God there stretches forth his hand without a difference to all, but lays hold only of those, to lead them to himself, whom he has chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Bartholomew]

Originally posted by Ian Major:
I didn't say they are unbeleivers - quite the reverse. My point was that 'us' are the elect, and the text is saying God is not willing that any of them would perish.

But you're also saying that the only elect who can perish are the unbelieving elect. Hence they are the ones God is being longsuffering towards. Hence you do make this a reference to unbelievers. And as I showed, the context must surely be to believers.

'May' can be conditional for the present without being so when present with the Lord, as the text can naturally be understood as saying that we labour to be accepted of Him in the present life even as we will when we are with Him.

Why do you think we will be accepted when we are with the Lord, if we might not be now? What magic does death do to make us acceptable? Indeed, the very next verse tells us that God will judge us for our works! And it isn't a judgement to see if we really had faith, but about works! That is why it causes Paul the "terror of the Lord"!

The kingdom of God is not a millenial kingdom where saint and sinner mingle: 1 Cor.6: 9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[1] nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

That passage backs up what I'm saying! Look - it's not about faith or lack of it - but about works! The kingdom is a reward for works!

Any difficulties we have in reconciling them must allow that the symbolic meaning is to conform with the plain teaching, not the other way around.

I agree. And the plain reading of scripture tells us that the kingdom is future, physical and according to works. I indetify that with the kingdom in Revelation because that's what Revelation says, too.

This and the other points you listed fail to understand that Israel the nation was NOT redeemed in the crucial spiritual sense.

Of course. But they were redeemed physically. And that physical redemption is a type of the present spiritual reality, just like so much in the OT. The parallel stands, and 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3-4 tell me so.

Yes, 'burn' does not exhaust the description. But it is certainly not the continuance of the present heavens and earth.

But does that mean there can be nothing remaining of the present heaven and earth? But even if there can't be, there is no problem. Again, you can't assume that this "new heaven and new earth" is the same one as found in Revelation. Why can't it be the one found in Isaiah 65?

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Obviously, this is a "new heaven and earth" occuring before the final one of Rev 21. In the final one there will be no more death, no more sin. Yet Isaiah tells us there will be a "new heaven and earth" in which there still will be death and sin. That, I submit, is what Peter is talking about. Besides, there is an aweful lot of prophecy in that requires a millennial kingdom in order to take place.

 

[Ian Major]

Me2 said
Look at the complete here picture Ian, Not a small snapshot within the entire plan.

THAT is precisely what I am doing and you are not. You take a few verses that say 'all' and ignore the other verses by the same author that plainly show the 'all' as not being all without exception. You base your entire system upon your distortion of these few texts and ignore the testimony of the whole of Scripture.

For example, the all who die in Adam are not the same as the all that live in Christ: all of Adam's nature,'in Adam', died; all of Christ's nature, 'in Christ',shall live. Who are the 'all' in Rom. 11? Both Jews and Gentiles who believe, not every person without exception.

Do you believe that Scripture cannot be broken, i.e. is inerrant and infallible? If so, you must accept that one Scripture cannot contradict another. Any explanation of a text must be in accord with the rest of Scripture.

But you fail to deal with the texts that assert the eternal punishment of the wicked. e.g. Daniel 12: 2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 3: 36He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Mark 3: 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation"--
Mark 9: 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--
Matthew 25: 46And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

as far as tribulation towards the souls of those being designated to be vessels of wrath. All men receive tribulation in life for we all must learn and experience the knowledge of Good and Evil. We all are seperated from Gods infinite love temporarily, yet he sets the distance. mankind is never too far away that he cannot rescue anyone.

The punishment is not temporary:
2 Thess.1: 9These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Is it that hard to correlate the lake of fire with the resurrection power of God? That the lake of Fire and brimstone represents something of RIGHTEOUSNESS?.

Yes, it is that hard; impossible in fact. For the Scripture shows us that it is not an empty prison that is thrown into the lake of fire, rather the occupants of it:
Matthew 25: 41"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

In Him

Ian

 

[Me2]

Ian Major,

The "all" mentioned in corinthians concerns “all” born within this physical world. And have to be delivered into spiritual death, and finally be spiritually judged.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As the difference being found in the romans comments which are concerning the two groups called of God within the total creation. Who receive his seed and are drawn to be examples of the followers of Christ or of satan.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Which here the “all” is concerning those within the two groups (wrath and mercy) with the EXCLUSION of the majority of humans not called and are OUTSIDE these two groups.

Still the majority of orthodox christian religion do not recognize God expressing mercy to the vessels of wrath when it is stated here in romans of the explicite stated plans of God. (Albeit hidden in a mystery)

Look at the details here. Both groups receive the seed of God. Both called to fulfill the will of God. both groups have to be killed of the works of their carnal flesh. Both groups have the law deliver their carnal spirit into death and be spiritually judged of the works done in their carnal spirit.

Did you catch that Ian?. The vessels of mercy have been delivered into spiritual death and have been judged of their carnal spirit works.
But the vessels of wrath HAVE NOT. Their judgement has been delayed by God himself. They are to serve a future purpose in Gods plans and are being held under the servitude of satan and their carnal lusts.

But God states clearly that they also SHALL BE SAVED. That all within the two groups are to be given mercy by God. to receive the same results eventually in the end of Gods plans.

This is a focus upon the two groups called of God to the end of the plans whereas both groups are saved even though one is viewed as evil and called to “deserve the wrath of God”.
they receive the mercy also as the vessels of mercy have.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (vessels of mercy)
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (vessels of wrath)
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath)

**

Now to the comment of eternal punishment.

Is it from a dream of another? Or the revelation of another?
Is it written in the form of a parable, or a metaphorical, figurative, or even symbolic statement?

Also examine where we find the word eternal of everlasting. For mankind are creations that exist within ages having a beginning and ending. Our God calls himself the God of Ages. From age to age.

I can think of everlasting “punishment” very easily. I do something against God. He forgives me of the action, yet the memories of the action haunts me “everlasting”.
Because the past (from my perspective) cannot be changed. It occurred.
No one will forget their past. It coincides with learning of the knowledge of Evil. It emphasizes the knowledge of Good.

Everyone will be exposed to the power of the knowledge of evil. All will be eternally greived with its existence. Yet we also have the existence of the knowledge of good. That good is stronger and will overcome the powers of evil.
A paradox within mankinds existence.
Both knowledge of good and evil with its understanding existing within all creatures of mankind.

All punishment is temporary Ian. Or else the knowledge of Good will not conquer overagainst the knowledge of Evil.
The punishement being the ignorance of the mindset. the punishment ends when the knowledge concerning the power of the knowledge of good OVERCOMES the knowledge of Evil.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

the flaming fire is the knowledge of Good. what is “destroyed” or overcome is “the power” of the knowledge of evil, having strength within those ignorant enough to follow its precepts.

An easy comment hear is the mention of the lord. Who is sovereign here? Self or the Lord? Until we allow ourselves to be overcomed by the power of the knowledge of the (truth) love of the lord for our souls. We will remain in fear of the lord not being capable of loving us completely. We are punished by our own fears.

The flaming fire is the knowledge of Good. And until the truth is revealed towards ourself. We will punish ourselves in error and not have truth revealed towards us in the knowledge of Good and Evil.

And finally you statements of the lake of fire. Again the word of error eminating from our orthodox religions and their error drowns many other voices.

The lake of fire is self being burned of the works of the carnal self. both Works here being the knowledge of truth and error.
Works of error is knowledge gained by self and not from Gods perspective. Our “knowledge of Good and evil” was gathered by ourselves and not given to us by God himself.

What did adam receive when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil. HIS OWN VERSION OF TRUTH AND ERROR. Not that of Gods perspective.

So that in the lake of fire and brimstone we find ministers preaching to those in the lake.
Preaching the knowledge of Gods perspective of good and evil.
As the flames of the fire burn away the error that was held by those thrown within its banks. And the real true knowledge of Good and evil is witnessed to them by the priests within the lake.

Again what is the lake?. It is spiritual death. It is where we replace bad works of error received by our carnal spirit and become resurrected by the receiving of good works from the Lord Jesus Christ.
A place where error is overcome by truth. evil being overcome by good.
A place where nothing is really destroyed but is combined. As we witness to the comparing of opposite powers and are revealed to their realities that one far outweights the other.

Me2

 

[Ian Major]

Me2 said
The "all" mentioned in corinthians concerns “all” born within this physical world. And have to be delivered into spiritual death, and finally be spiritually judged.

So you assert. But you ignore the 'in' part. IN Adam, IN Christ. AND you ignore all the rest of Scripture that triangulates for us the specific meaning of the text, that the 'all' in Christ refers to all the saved, not all of mankind.

Still the majority of orthodox christian religion do not recognize God expressing mercy to the vessels of wrath when it is stated here in romans of the explicite stated plans of God. (Albeit hidden in a mystery)

The mystery that the historic Christian church has not seen is the mystery of lawlessness, of which Universalism is a part. Me2, you are holding to a very serious error. One aspect of its danger is that of denial of large parts of Scripture. It is not like some of the things in Scripture that Christians differ on - for each can give some defence of an alternative understanding of any text. Universalism, at least what I have read of your account, just ignores the texts that scream out the truth of eternal perdition for the wicked.

A second danger comes from a doctrine I assume you hold: the salvation of Satan himself. Our greatest foe, THE enemy of God, is also to be reconciled to God, if your system is to stand. Just how this could be you have not said - for Hebrews tells us that God has come to the aid of sinful man only, not to angels. The danger is that we regard Satan as a sort of separated brother.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath)

Your whole argument breaks down when we see that 'them' is the Jews and Gentiles. God 'concluded them all in unbelief' - that Jews would be saved in exactly the same manner as Gentiles, by His mercy in Christ. It is not the two sorts of vessels that are in view.


Is it written in the form of a parable, or a metaphorical, figurative, or even symbolic statement?

In all these, but also in plain statements of the fate of the wicked.

Also examine where we find the word eternal of everlasting. For mankind are creations that exist within ages having a beginning and ending. Our God calls himself the God of Ages. From age to age.

There is the unending age, eternal life and eternal death. Or do you believe in the annihilation of everything?

Again what is the lake?. It is spiritual death. It is where we replace bad works of error received by our carnal spirit and become resurrected by the receiving of good works from the Lord Jesus Christ.

As an example of your treatment of Scripture, this is really helpful. You deny the eschatological setting of Gehenna and place it in the present, as a sort of internal sanctifier! How you can square that with all the passages, some of which I listed for you, that declare the terrors that await the ungodly? I leave you with Jude 12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

In Him

Ian

 

[Me2]

But you ignore the 'in' part. IN Adam, IN Christ. AND you ignore all the rest of Scripture that triangulates for us the specific meaning of the text, that the 'all' in Christ refers to all the saved, not all of mankind.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Its very clear to me. Adam representing “all” men born with a carnal spirit and consequently having to enter into spiritual death, as well as Christ representing all men reborn from spiritual death into eternal life with his righteous spirit.

1Co 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. …by adam came death to all men. By christ came the resurrection of all men from spiritual death into spiritual life.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. by adam all men enter into spiritual death because of his unrighteousness. By christ all men are resurrected from spiritual death because of his righteousness.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. If christ died for all men, then he will appear to all men eventually. (please keep in mind that the firstfruits are the head and body together] those “at his coming” will have to be in the next age.

1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
all men will be “in christ” at this point, when spoken of as “the kingdom”.
For all men are enemies of Christ in their lives. “all” authority, well you figure out if this includes satan and his demons here. God did die for hi enemies, right?
Or does “all authority and power” exclude them from the love of God in your interpretations also.?

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
theres that “all” enemies again. Did God destroy by annihilation or absorption. Didn’t he cover over darkness with light. Unrighteousness with righteousness. Death with life. Judgement with mercy.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
and the final enemy death. If death has no power, then ETERNAL LIFE is the rule of the environment we find all men in. eternal as in the zoa life that can only be found in God. the zoa life of God and man being one in spirit. no seperation between man and God can be found. Only harmony and righteousness. No death.

1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Again we find “all”. Is all things subdued, including death.
Then only righteousness can abide. Jesus Christ has filled all things. Jesus Christ subdues all enemies against him with righteousness. This is what the GWT judgement is.
it is a righteous judgement against Jesus enemies. Whereas Jesus Blood covers over all enemies with righteousness. He takes away all forms of seperation between man and God. he subdues all enemies.


1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The image of man can always been found in the man/woman relationship.
The lover/beloved relationship. the parent/child relationship.
The teacher/disciple relationship.

The image of man can be found within the nature of God.
Within his desires to cherish man as his object of care.

It is Not to be found in the object of eternal punishment.

Especially when it serves no future purpose towards mankind.

It is unfortunate that I will not further this particular thread for I am vacationing for a week. But Ill try to address the last statement that you have expressed.

Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

We can recognize these as those reprobates specifically chosen of God to represent the knowledge of Evil in the next age.
Weve beforehand spoke of these as vessels of wrath. Every NT book speaks of only two groups of chosen people of God. the vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.
Think on this. Many peoples are called of God throughout history, yet most do not reach past the level of babes and children “in Christ”. few go beyond these stages to reach the young man and father stage.
As the opposite. Some of all called of God revert from the carnal babe and child “in christ “ stages to become reprobates against the faithful of God. they are chosen to be antichrists and false prophets. These few chosen are to be antichrists and false prophets also called the vessels of wrath.
These are overt and outspoken in their activities and teachings yet ignorant of the truth and such activities which they are embrasing.
Throughout the NT are found the identifying attitudes of these carnal works of these vessels of wrath that are being pointed out in order to teach the young men and fathers.

The problems you state are of misunderstanding of what is actually being described here.
Because we find the young men and fathers responsibilities towards these to be eventually judging them. Remember those thrones found in revelations. Those whom sit on these thrones will be administering truth towards these vessels of wrath in the next age. (young men and Fathers)
Yet we must always remember that we were once equal to their present carnal nature.

As God has shown us mercy and forgiven our trespasses. It will be our turn to offer mercy and forgiveness towards their trespasses as representatives of Jesus Christ

Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Christians often speak of the judgement seat of christ yet do they actually think that as the “body of Christ” that they will not be the designated ones to actually sit and administer judgement?
What will we call this activity..maybe we can call it the Great white throne judgement.
where the souls of men are found together with the spirit of Christ sitting on Gods throne representing God judging our fellow brothers and sisters.. maybe?

Where is the thone of Christ today. (within the christians flesh!)
and what has Our father judged the christian with what verdict? Yep that’s right.
Innocence based on the work of another.
As with the firstfruit (spring harvest). It will be the same with the fall harvest. (those at christ coming)

Based on the longsuffering of our lord that none be lost. That none should perish. That all come to repentence. (That’s change their mind from error to truth. )

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Isnt this the hope of all christians. As the father, as the Son that all come to repentence. to the knowledge of the truth. well, heres their chance.

Me2

 

[Ian Major]

Bartholomew said
But you're also saying that the only elect who can perish are the unbelieving elect. Hence they are the ones God is being longsuffering towards. Hence you do make this a reference to unbelievers. And as I showed, the context must surely be to believers.

Your premise was, 'believers may perish'. The text is saying that God is long-suffering to the elect ('us') in order that none of them perish. All the elect begin life as unbelievers, but none end life so. Therefore the accurate way to express who the text speaks of is that it speaks of the elect, unbelievers who will become believers.

The only way 'us' can perish is if we don't believe - and God takes all the time required to accomplish the task of bringing 'us' to faith.

Note also that perish here is contrasted with being brought to repentance. Surely reminds us of John 3: 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Perish does not refer to temporal punishment, but to eternal punishment.

Why do you think we will be accepted when we are with the Lord, if we might not be now? What magic does death do to make us acceptable? Indeed, the very next verse tells us that God will judge us for our works! And it isn't a judgement to see if we really had faith, but about works! That is why it causes Paul the "terror of the Lord"!

The magic is the complete sanctification we shall experience when we die. Heb.12: 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, . And the complete work that will be done when we are resurrected: 1 Cor.15: 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. We shall be changed 'in a moment', not over 1000 years.

As to 'we' who must stand before the Lord in judgement, that is all mankind. Yes, the judgement is based on our works. Those with Abraham's faith will have Abraham's works. Those without it will have the works of their father, the devil. Christians will also suffer loss of reward for whatever of their works are wood, hay and stubble, but will not suffer for their sins, as Christ has fully paid for them. The unbelievers will bear themselves the wrath of God for their sins.


Must rush for now. Will come back on the rest later,DV.

In Him

Ian

 

[Ian Major]

Bartholomew said
That passage backs up what I'm saying! Look - it's not about faith or lack of it - but about works! The kingdom is a reward for works!

Faith is the only way our works are acceptable to God, Heb.11:6. How are the faithful manifested in Heb.11? By their works. Also, the 'kingdom of God/kingdom of Heaven' is not the millenium, it is the rule of God that extends throughout eternity.

I agree. And the plain reading of scripture tells us that the kingdom is future, physical and according to works. I indetify that with the kingdom in Revelation because that's what Revelation says, too.

Let me suggest you check out all the references to the kingdom - you will see it is not so limited. Indeed, the kingdom will not be inhabited by mere mortals, only the glorified elect - 1 Cor.15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Of course. But they were redeemed physically. And that physical redemption is a type of the present spiritual reality, just like so much in the OT. The parallel stands, and 1 Cor 10 and Heb 3-4 tell me so.

If that is the correct interpretation, then you must believe in being saved and lost again, for none of those who fell in the desert EVER entered the promised land. They weren't disqualified for a while, punished for a 1000 years and then admitted with the faithful.

Better to see the analogy as referring to false professors in the church today - regardless of their success in deceiving others and themselves, they will never enter into His rest.

But does that mean there can be nothing remaining of the present heaven and earth? But even if there can't be, there is no problem. Again, you can't assume that this "new heaven and new earth" is the same one as found in Revelation. Why can't it be the one found in Isaiah 65?

Nothing upon which one could build a temporal, physical empire.

Well, we could assume that. We could have a different millenium to cater for every factor that doesn't fit with a literal understanding of the prophecies. A kingdom of God that flesh and blood, good and evil folk do enter; also one in which only godly immortals enter; a new heavens and a new earth for the former, and another for the latter. And another for the revived Levitical priesthood and Ezekiel's temple. Maybe a few others would also be needed. But is this what Scripture is saying? Is it not most unlikely even on first examination?

Is a better explanation not that many of the OT prophecies were of spiritual realities couched in symbolism? Likewise for the heavily symbolic book of Revelation. An indication of this is found in the Lord's reference to John the Baptist as being the Elijah who was to come. Do we accept this or do we look for the actual Elijah? Is the typical language found in the OT prophecy or in the Lord's comments? Surely it is the Old that has the type and the New that has the antitype/fulfulment.

Obviously, this is a "new heaven and earth" occuring before the final one of Rev 21. In the final one there will be no more death, no more sin. Yet Isaiah tells us there will be a "new heaven and earth" in which there still will be death and sin. That, I submit, is what Peter is talking about. Besides, there is an aweful lot of prophecy in that requires a millennial kingdom in order to take place.

Peter looks for the sort of new heavens and new earth 'in which righteousness dwells.'

All such prophecies only require a millenium because we seek to understand them literally, rather than being open to God meaning them spiritually, as with Elijah's second coming.

In Him

Ian

 

[calvin4me]

Originally posted by Askjo:
Calvinists believe in God's election more important than the repentance. How would a Calvinist explain concerning the REPENTANCE on this verse? God wants ALL to come to repentance, not selects whom He likes and dislikes. Think with me -- My dad said, "Come" then should I OBEY him? If I rebel against him, what would my dad do to me? That is what this verse means.

Hi Askjo.
God certainly DOES want all to come to repentance, but not all WILL come. Indeed, NOBODY would come if He did not gracefully reach forth and draw men to Christ. WHY He draws some and not all is His business.
"My Father, who has GIVEN them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand." (John 10:29)

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)

The gospel of John is a treasure house full of the gems.

 

[Ian Major]

Me2 said
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. by adam all men enter into spiritual death because of his unrighteousness. By christ all men are resurrected from spiritual death because of his righteousness.

No, you are still missing the crucial wording of the text -'in'. IN Christ shall all be made alive. We all began IN Adam. But only the elect end up IN Christ. ALL of those IN Christ are made alive.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. and the final enemy death. If death has no power, then ETERNAL LIFE is the rule of the environment we find all men in. eternal as in the zoa life that can only be found in God. the zoa life of God and man being one in spirit. no seperation between man and God can be found. Only harmony and righteousness. No death.

Again, you choose to ignore all the passages that teach the eternal death of the wicked. The enemy that is described here is physical death for God's people. One day that will be forever banished. But eternal death remains for the wicked. Eternal life for those with God, eternal death for those banished from His presence.

Regarding all your other comments on the final judgement, I'm not sure just what you are saying, but I gather you deny that God will render ' to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek' Rom. 2. You are simply denying the teachings of Scripture and replacing them with the philosophies of man.

By His Grace

Ian

 

[Me2]

Ian Major,

No, you are still missing the crucial wording of the text -'in'. IN Christ shall all be made alive. We all began IN Adam. But only the elect end up IN Christ. ALL of those IN Christ are made alive.

mankind began inside this spirit image called "in Christ". the "bride" has always been a part of Christ, the head, and has never been seperated.
as so the bride.
so are the children within her womb.

mankind began this journey "in christ" only to be emptied out into death, in order to work its way back to God, or become reconciled back into this image called "in Christ".

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him:

we have being made in and through and for this image called "in christ"
placed into vanity by the creator
only to be regathered at some point by God back into this originally created image called "in Christ"

everything was made after a pattern created by the father. the son is the manifest template of all things. good and evil. God creates completely and perfectly, yet we as a human race are discovering God has emptied the human race into death at its inception, or what He defines as our conception and slowly assembles ourselves back into this image he created into its complete and perfect form.

what your desires are in focusing on the elect so closely, is that in the next age the sons of God will be representing the entire creation before God (as the example of a high priest would.). this is why they are referenced as the "body of Christ".
until the main harvest of creation receives their spirit body and can function independent of the "sons of God" before their creator. this is the mentioned inheritance of Christ given to the sons of God.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

what is all things?. lets see. theres knowledge of Good and evil. theres the souls of men and women and theres the spirit of God.
theres nothing physical. so that the only conclusion one can arrive to is to represent. to know. to understand. to experience. to share. and all this is funneled through the sons of God.

Me2

 

[Me2]

Ian Major..

Again, you choose to ignore all the passages that teach the eternal death of the wicked. The enemy that is described here is physical death for God's people. One day that will be forever banished. But eternal death remains for the wicked. Eternal life for those with God, eternal death for those banished from His presence.

this physical world is a Reflection of the spirit realm its mirroring. as we have a physical body, a spirit and a soul. .we also possess a spirit body and spirit in a spirit realm simultaneously.

we share the spirit and spirit body in both realms. when we are said to be "born again". this would referr to the process of delivering our spirit and spirit body INTO DEATH within this spirit realm.
we are buried and are resurrrected with a new spirit and new spirit body.

we cant see this new resurrected spirit body but it encases our new resurrected spirit. when we enter into the next life. we already have this spirit, spirit body and our continually renewing soul.

so whatever happens to one human being happens the same way to all.

adam introduced the idea of seperation from God and a spirit and spirit body that is unacceptable before God. the bible calls it the carnal spirit.
adam reproduces all humans. through adam, we receive a reproduced spirit and spirit body that is unacceptable before God.
Christ comes to us to represent all humans. With his death the father replaces our unacceptable spirit and spirit body with that of Christs resurrected and rightous spirit and spirit body.

all human beings have to receive this new spirit and spirit body to receive eternal life.

in adam we all receive this unacceptable unrighteous spirit and spirit body.

in christ we all receive a new resurrected and righteous spirit and spirit body.

the point that is addressed. receiving the spirit of Christ has NOTHING to do with this physical life. it has everything to do with replacing an old unacceptable spirit and spirit Body. it is God the father that chooses who will receive this new spirit and spirit body and What order this process will take place. man doesnt have anything to do with this. it was decided before time began the order of each human being receiving this replacement and their learning of the knowledge of what has occurred.

what we are witnessing in this age is the elect or called out ones or sons of God which are chosen FIRST with the remainder of creation to follow in future ages to follow. the same proceedure must occur to each and every human being. remember the first resurrection. and then theres the second resurrection.

God is not partial. if something happens to one human being. It will happen to all. and replacement of the spirit and spirit body is primary and crucial to experiencing the life that God has prepared for every human being.

Nobody is left behind Ian. our carnal spirit along with its unrighteous spirit body is replaced and our souls retreived from death attached to a new resurrected spirit and resurrected spirit body of Christ.

Me2

 

[Ian Major]

Me2 said

God is not partial. if something happens to one human being. It will happen to all. and replacement of the spirit and spirit body is primary and crucial to experiencing the life that God has prepared for every human being.

Nobody is left behind Ian. our carnal spirit along with its unrighteous spirit body is replaced and our souls retreived from death attached to a new resurrected spirit and resurrected spirit body of Christ.

Me2, you are preaching another religion than Christianity. You have set aside all the plain teaching of Scripture on the reality of heaven and hell, and have put in its place a heaven of your own imagination. Why do you bother with the other truths of Scripture at all? How can you believe in, for example, the deity of Christ or His substitutionary atonement? Would your type of exegesis not rule out any certain knowledge of these fundemental truths? From your point of view can we know anything, and does it even matter, since everyone ends up the same anyway?

Me2, this is deadly error you are messing with. Please examine yourself again in the light of your refusal to deal with all the Scriptures that contradict Universalism.

In Him

Ian

 

[Skandelon]

Ian,

I agree with you about your conclusions concerning Universalism, however I can't help ask this question concerning your comment:

From your point of view can we know anything, and does it even matter, since everyone ends up the same anyway?

Isn't this an objection that Calvinistic doctine attracts in the same manner? What does Me2's doctrine matter, or my doctrine matter since everyone ends up in the same place God determined anyway?

If this argument can be used against his doctrine, why can't it be used against yours in the same manner?

 

[Ian Major]

Skandelon said
Isn't this an objection that Calvinistic doctine attracts in the same manner? What does Me2's doctrine matter, or my doctrine matter since everyone ends up in the same place God determined anyway?

The difference is at least in the final result. God uses MEANS to accomplish His ENDS, as I've tried to explain to you before. To ignore the means is to ensure the particular end. In Me2's scheme, we all end up in heaven anyway. In the Biblical scheme, only those who obey the gospel do so.

It is a logical contradiction for anyone to hold that Calvinism makes it pointless to obey the gospel. Yes, the destiny of each one is settled. But part of that settlement is the individual's response to the gospel. Any other response than true faith and repentance brings eternal destruction. To fold one's arms and say, 'If God is going to save me, let Him get on with it, for I'm going to get on with my life in the meantime', is to show contempt for God and expose one's wicked heart.

Whether we are elect or not is not our business as sinners. Our business is to repent and believe. If we do so, we will then know we are and always have been one of His elect. To refuse on the basis that's it's pointless since the elect will be saved anyway is to ignore God's specific command, consider ourselves wiser than God, and to despise His ordained means of salvation.

In Him

Ian

 

[Me2]

double post..oops

 

[Me2]

Would your type of exegesis not rule out any certain knowledge of these fundemental truths? From your point of view can we know anything, and does it even matter, since everyone ends up the same anyway?

the only exclusion of doctrine that I submit is the eternal punishment towards any soul created by a loving God.
Jesus christ died for all transgression of mankind that was brought on by the curse. Jesus Christ went into death and filled its domain. leaving it powerless to retain any Human being of sin and reasons of retrobution of God the father.

my belief structure begins with nothing less than an infinite God loving his creation.

it is carnal mans concept of a God who chooses some to be saved and leave others doomed.
although the bible interjects these ideas within "riddles". it leaves the faith of christ in control of defining the end results of these "riddles".

remember Christ? didnt He died for all sin? didnt he die for the transgressions of all of Gods enemies?
thats right. all enemies. including you and I and every other human being in existence.

anothers carnal mans ideas of being Godlike is to retain enemies under their feet.
retain those deemed less worthy than themselves. therefore they feel superior over others.
Christ Died to redemm all held by the curse and leaving none behind.
stripping away the superiority of any carnal mans power overagainst another human being in the eyes of their creator God.

we all the same in Gods eyes. we are all once enemies. we will eventually all become reconciled sons and daughters.

2 peter 3:9 keeps the doors open to those who desire the promises of God to be revealed.
Towards those who desire to see the power of God resurrect all back into his loving brace. out of the clutches of death and hell and sin.

or pehaps more promises?...

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

all men means all men.

isnt it a curious thing that those who "profess" that they possess the spirit of Christ within them ,not desire with their very breath of Life the salvation of all men? just some that are deemed "deserving".
or am I wrong in understanding the doctrine of Christ here? did He die for all men, or not? did he abolish death, or not? did he put all enemies of mankind under his feet? (meaning ..sin,death,hell)
did he not silence the wrath of God the father toward all men against him?

again we start with the premise of who God is, to discover his plans. God is love, treats all men impartially, doesnt lie, and doesnt change. he wills all men to be saved, come to the knowledge of the lord jesus christ and receive salvation and grace. and whatever word proceed from the mouth of God doesnt return unfulfilled.

like Ive stated before. My change in belief structure is towards eschatology.
it takes away eternal retrobution of God towards mankind therefore rendering carnal mans advantage of feeling superior over against others. it strips them of being Godlike. what did Jesus do? he didnt feel superior over any man. he died for their desires of being reconciled back to their God.

What do you do? you judge them inferior and strip them of mercy before their time of judgement before their God.
difference here in believe is that I dont.

a question for both arminians as well as calvinists is what is the Goal of God? is it to save some, or all. they both rests upon works.
on who knows what. as if one person deserved something different overagainst another.

if both camps only asked why God elects some today and not all. why God chooses to retain some in a reprobate state against truth. and why all the doublespeak of God desiring all to be saved, yet he chooses only some to complete this process?

the process isnt over Guys.. theres more than meets our imaginations of How Gods salvation of mankind works.

Me2