2 Peter 3:9

[The Archangel]

We are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. We are not chosen out side of Him. Do you believe you were you born saved? You were born in sin just like the rest of us.
ia

I do not believe I was born saved. I was born a sinner like the rest of mankind.

I placed my faith in Christ to become saved, but the reason I did that, the Bible says, is that I was elected in Christ before the foundation of the world...before I ever existed. At the proper time (according to God's timing) I was regenerated and responded to the Gospel and Christ and was saved.

What does that have to do, though, with your previous statement which I thought was anachronistic? I'm having a rough time wrapping my mind around your argument.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[convicted1]

Friend, you are seemingly not understanding what irresistible grace is. Having Jesus merely "talk" to someone is not what Calvinists mean when they discuss irresistible grace. Irresistible grace deals with a change of heart, not the surrounding circumstances or even divine encounters.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Oh, I understand what irresitible grace is, and that it is false. I pushed God away more times than I can think of(and not proud of it either).

Now to not hijack this thread. How can anyone correlate Matt. 19:16-22 with John 6:44? It states in Matt. 19 that "one came and said unto Him.....", so how can someone/anyone articulate these two with one another?

I look forward to any and all replies!! I love you all!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

Willis

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh, I understand what irresitible grace is, and that it is false. I pushed God away more times than I can think of(and not proud of it either).

Now to not hijack this thread. How can anyone correlate Matt. 19:16-22 with John 6:44? It states in Matt. 19 that "one came and said unto Him.....", so how can someone/anyone articulate these two with one another?

I look forward to any and all replies!! I love you all!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

Willis

Irresistible grace wins out. How many times do you think Saul of Tarsus kicked against the goads?

 

[convicted1]

Irresistible grace wins out. How many times do you think Saul of Tarsus kicked against the goads?

I bolded a portion of your post to address it. If it is "irresistible", then why did Saul even kick once? If it was "irresistible", he would have said "yea Lord" the first time. However, very few of us say "yea Lord" the first time He visits us. Or at least I didn't say it the first time He came to me. So if he didn't say "yea Lord" the first, or even second time, then he must have "resisted", right? I am just saying......

Now, again. How can anyone correlate Matt. 19:16-22 with John 6:44???

I'll be waiting for any and all replies. Thanks in advance.

 

[preacher4truth]

I bolded a portion of your post to address it. If it is "irresistible", then why did Saul even kick once? If it was "irresistible", he would have said "yea Lord" the first time. However, very few of us say "yea Lord" the first time He visits us. Or at least I didn't say it the first time He came to me. So if he didn't say "yea Lord" the first, or even second time, then he must have "resisted", right? I am just saying......

Now, again. How can anyone correlate Matt. 19:16-22 with John 6:44???

I'll be waiting for any and all replies. Thanks in advance.

I'll answer your questions as soon as you answer my post before you went irresisitible grace on me in the midst of election. You skipped my entire post.

Fair enough?

 

[TCGreek]

An example of a militant Calvinist, out to convert non-Calvinists to Calvinism.

 

[The Archangel]

Oh, I understand what irresitible grace is, and that it is false. I pushed God away more times than I can think of(and not proud of it either).

Now to not hijack this thread. How can anyone correlate Matt. 19:16-22 with John 6:44? It states in Matt. 19 that "one came and said unto Him.....", so how can someone/anyone articulate these two with one another?

I look forward to any and all replies!! I love you all!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

Willis

You have not demonstrated that you understand irresistible grace. You may reject it, and that's fine. However, you are caricaturing it, falsely, I might add.

So, while I absolutely accept and celebrate your right to disagree with and reject irresistible grace, you should have the courtesy to paint an accurate portrait of what it is.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Now, again. How can anyone correlate Matt. 19:16-22 with John 6:44???

I'll be waiting for any and all replies. Thanks in advance.

This is a false comparison. It is like comparing a square and a circle, suggesting they are the same thing.

Unfortunately, in the Matthew passage, you are ignoring vs. 23-30 which give a great understanding to the context of the vs 16-22.

So, until we are comparing apples to apples or oranges to oranges, you will have to go without an answer, because there is no such thing as an "appleorange."

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

An example of a militant Calvinist, out to convert non-Calvinists to Calvinism.

TC!

Friend, is this all of us?

Blessings,

The Archangel

PS. On a completely different subject--I know you are fond of the TNIV, are you looking forward to the NIV2011?

 

[Iconoclast]

I bolded a portion of your post to address it. If it is "irresistible", then why did Saul even kick once? If it was "irresistible", he would have said "yea Lord" the first time. However, very few of us say "yea Lord" the first time He visits us. Or at least I didn't say it the first time He came to me. So if he didn't say "yea Lord" the first, or even second time, then he must have "resisted", right? I am just saying......

Now, again. How can anyone correlate Matt. 19:16-22 with John 6:44???

I'll be waiting for any and all replies. Thanks in advance.

Willis,
here is your answer to mt22 given under the chapter dealing with effectual calling, read ,learn, and enjoy!

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

this comes from the 1689 baptist confession of faith which you can read or save to your 'favorites' if you would like;

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

Also Willis......you made a wrong statement earlier saying that Jesus does not send anyone to hell.....they send themselves.
this false view contradicts so many clear verses as Mt 7:21-24, mt25 rev20 jn 3:17-18

 

[Iconoclast]

An example of a militant Calvinist, out to convert non-Calvinists to Calvinism.

Then again.....it could just be believers seeking to be faithful to their Lord and correcting error that seeks to give full ability ,power, and glory to the dead sinner, and who seek to undermine [in their own philosophical and emotional worldview ] the true and living God who has revealed Himself as the Great Sovereign....

1Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

2Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased

34And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

 

[Jarthur001]

Yes. Isn't that how the elect are defined...those who will never perish (John 3:16)?
Why do the elect need to be pleaded with in a monergistic model?

This is a subfallacy

Here is your syllogism..

God knows who all the elect are.
God is pleading in this passage.

This cannot be the elect.

Poor logic

TRUTH:
The passage is talking about the 2nd coming…

1This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:​

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

SNIP...

9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
​

So…the "slack concerning his promise" is the promise of his 2nd coming.
Who is waiting on the 2nd coming?

Believers are waiting on the 2nd coming in this passage. The " us-ward" (KJV)…the ones waiting for His return are the ones he is talking to.

Or in the ESV…the "patient toward YOU"…the YOU is the ones waiting on his return.

Now could it be that it is talking about the Jews waiting on their Messiah?

Verse 2 will not ALLOW this.

Notice why Paul wrote these things…

1,2 ....In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles,
​

You have two groups here in the 1st few verses. This two verse is talking to the BELIEVERS.

Notice they are to REMEMBER what CHRIST and the PROPHETS and the APOSTLES said. Paul says he wants them to remember to "stirring up your sincere mind". Paul is not talking to non-believers here.

Verse 3…is the non-believers. "knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires"

Scoffers..= non-believers

Verse 4 says they will ask…"Where is the promise of his coming?"

Why do they ask this?
Well, Christ said (verse 2) such words as this…

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power".
​

verse 5-8 Paul tells of all the things the non-believers had forgot about.

NOW VERSE 9.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you
​

Paul is saying….FORGET what the scoffers are saying. REMEMBER (Verse2)..what Christ said.

Who is he talking to? toward YOU…the Believers.

not wishing that any (believer) should perish, (( or Gods main goal is not a focus on the death of the elect...Some will indeed die)) ......but .....((the focus is and the reason why some will die is God is waiting to fulfill the FULL PROMISE...verse 4..)..... that all (the elect would be born and..) should reach repentance.
​

MY WORDS underlined are ADDED.

When this was written, all of the elect had not been born.
God is not only waiting for the last to be born, but for them also to believe.

Then the Kingdom is complete.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is there anyone in hell right now, for whom Christ did not die?

All those who enter torment justly for their sins, were never part of the covenant death and saving atonement that Jesus accomplished for those given to him by the Father.

11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[webdog]

I do not believe I was born saved. I was born a sinner like the rest of mankind.

I placed my faith in Christ to become saved, but the reason I did that, the Bible says, is that I was elected in Christ before the foundation of the world...before I ever existed. At the proper time (according to God's timing) I was regenerated and responded to the Gospel and Christ and was saved.

What does that have to do, though, with your previous statement which I thought was anachronistic? I'm having a rough time wrapping my mind around your argument.

Blessings,

The Archangel

How can you be "in Christ" before actually being in Christ? We are in Christ via faith, unless you had faith in Christ before the foundation of the world, which would make you really old

 

[quantumfaith]

All those who enter torment justly for their sins, were never part of the covenant death and saving atonement that Jesus accomplished for those given to him by the Father.

OK, your answer is NO, that is about the only thing I understood. Can you simplify for me.

 

[webdog]

When this was written, all of the elect had not been born.
God is not only waiting for the last to be born, but for them also to believe.

While I don't agree with your perceived "sub fallacy"...the same problem remains in your understanding. Why is He being patient, "waiting" for them to believe when He is the one regenerating, giving repentance and faith? He would have to be waiting on Himself using your soteriology.
Also, it defies any kind or grammar and reason to state He doesn't want any of His elect to perish, as by definition of "elect" it is IMPOSSIBLE for any of them to perish!

 

[The Archangel]

How can you be "in Christ" before actually being in Christ? We are in Christ via faith, unless you had faith in Christ before the foundation of the world, which would make you really old

While I'm not all that old (though I feel it--bad knees and bad back), I think you are missing what the text is saying. Ephesians 1:4 clearly says "He (God) chose us." "Chose us" is the main verb and it is clearly describing God's action. When did He do the choosing? Before the foundation of the world. How did He do it? In Christ. Why did He do it? That we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Now, Ephesians, and other books, talk about the concept of "In Christ." There is a union between Christ and His elect (those chosen by God). Now, this union is a bit mystical and difficult to explain but it is clear that Jesus uniquely represents His elect before God. So, when Jesus was on the cross it is as if all of His elect were on the cross. When He was in the grave it is as if all His elect were in the grave. When He rose from the dead it is as if all His elect were raised from the dead.

This is why Paul says

25 ​Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so ​that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way ​husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because ​we are members of his body. 31 ​“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and p​the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. (Ephesians 5:25-33 ESV)

And in 1 Corinthians, Paul writes:

[15] Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! [16] Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” [17] But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
(1 Corinthians 6:15-17 ESV)

So, there is a union and we enter into this union not by our own will, but by God's choosing.

The Archangel

 

[Jarthur001]

While I don't agree with your perceived "sub fallacy"...the same problem remains in your understanding. Why is He being patient, "waiting" for them to believe when He is the one regenerating, giving repentance and faith? He would have to be waiting on Himself using your soteriology.
Also, it defies any kind or grammar and reason to state He doesn't want any of His elect to perish, as by definition of "elect" it is IMPOSSIBLE for any of them to perish!

I addressed this...

The last lines of the post...

When this was written, all of the elect had not been born.
God is not only waiting for the last to be born, but for them also to believe.

Then the Kingdom is complete.

 

[kyredneck]

While I'm not all that old (though I feel it--bad knees and bad back), I think you are missing what the text is saying. Ephesians 1:4 clearly says "He (God) chose us." "Chose us" is the main verb and it is clearly describing God's action. When did He do the choosing? Before the foundation of the world. How did He do it? In Christ. Why did He do it? That we should be holy and blameless before Him.

Now, Ephesians, and other books, talk about the concept of "In Christ." There is a union between Christ and His elect (those chosen by God). Now, this union is a bit mystical and difficult to explain but it is clear that Jesus uniquely represents His elect before God. So, when Jesus was on the cross it is as if all of His elect were on the cross. When He was in the grave it is as if all His elect were in the grave. When He rose from the dead it is as if all His elect were raised from the dead.

So, there is a union and we enter into this union not by our own will, but by God's choosing.

The Archangel

Those are some wonderful truths that have given great comfort and joy to God's people down through the ages. Thanks Archangel.

 

[Jarthur001]

Also, it defies any kind or grammar and reason to state He doesn't want any of His elect to perish, as by definition of "elect" it is IMPOSSIBLE for any of them to perish!

Ooops..I overlooked this.

No one can say this is not believers he is speaking of. The context DEMANDS IT

The debate lies in one word.

PERISH

The way I read it, as I said before....is this way...

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you
​

Paul is saying….FORGET what the scoffers are saying. REMEMBER (as in Verse2)..what Christ said.

Who is he talking to? toward YOU…the Believers.....not wishing that any (believer) should perish, (( or Gods main goal is not a focus on the death of the elect...Some will indeed die)) ......but .....((the focus is and the reason why some will die is God is waiting to fulfill the FULL PROMISE...verse 4..)..... that all (the elect would be born and..) should reach repentance.

UNDERLINE MY WORDS

To me its clear.