Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it! :thumbs:
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#2 Second Coming of Messiah Yeshua
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Me4Him said:
You are correct. You take a little here, a little there, a little from Darby, a little from Scofield, a little from any other dispensational writer that strikes your fancy and come up with a tale told by an
..... signifying nothing.OldRegular said:You are correct. You take a little here, a little there, a little from Darby, a little from Scofield, a little from any other dispensational writer that strikes your fancy and come up with a tale told by an
I 'm sure glad you're reading all these "books", saves me the trouble of finding out who agrees with me. :laugh: :laugh:
OR wrote -
But isn't that what YOU are doing, in effect?
You're taking what passages (writers) you want, ones that seem to fit your position, then piling them all up to prove it.
However, if someone says something you DON'T like/agree with, you purposely choose to reject it, rather than discuss it intelligently, and accuse them of the very thing you are doing.
Except it's evil and wrong only when they do it, but not when you do so.
:BangHead:
But isn't that what YOU are doing, in effect?
You're taking what passages (writers) you want, ones that seem to fit your position, then piling them all up to prove it.
However, if someone says something you DON'T like/agree with, you purposely choose to reject it, rather than discuss it intelligently, and accuse them of the very thing you are doing.
Except it's evil and wrong only when they do it, but not when you do so.
:BangHead:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Todd W. White said:
The dispensational hermeneutic is supposedly literal interpretation of Scripture. Yet the most relevant and understandable passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spiritualized, and profanely splintered, by dispensationalists simply because refutes the fable that passes for dispensational doctrine.
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I have posted this passage dozens of times but obviously dispensationalists had rather blindly accept the teachings of John Darby and Cyrus Scofield rather than Scripture. I don't doubt that dispensationalists on this forum will deny reading Darby or Scofield but it is a historical fact that Darby is the father of dispensationalism and Scofield its chief proponent in this country. Only those who deliberately close their mind to the truth can deny that this is true.
What about J. A. Seiss?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Elder Brother: // The dispensational hermeneutic is supposedly literal interpretation of Scripture. Yet the most relevant and understandable passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spiritualized, and profanely splintered, by dispensationalists simply because refutes the fable that passes for dispensational doctrine.
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. //
Your mantra is getting lame.
1. the stuff you call 'dispensational' (which word, alas, has no SPELL CHECK equivalent ) is not as you suggest
2. you fail to tell us what 'literal hour' means.
3. you fail to admit that 'hour' here is NOT LITERAL but a figure of speech.
4. you fail to agree or disagree (with a good substitue) with our definition:
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. //
Your mantra is getting lame.
1. the stuff you call 'dispensational' (which word, alas, has no SPELL CHECK equivalent ) is not as you suggest
2. you fail to tell us what 'literal hour' means.
3. you fail to admit that 'hour' here is NOT LITERAL but a figure of speech.
4. you fail to agree or disagree (with a good substitue) with our definition:
hour = the appropriate time
but hey! the Baptist Way is that we grant you always the right to be wrong :wavey:
BTW, Jesus said in the Garden after the first Lord's Supper:
"My hour has come"
48 HOURS Later he was dead (some say 24)
5 full days (120 hours) Later he arose from the dead
Even in the non-prophetic writings,
BTW, Jesus said in the Garden after the first Lord's Supper:
"My hour has come"
48 HOURS Later he was dead (some say 24)
5 full days (120 hours) Later he arose from the dead
Even in the non-prophetic writings,
hour = the appropriate time
x
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Elder Brother: // The dispensational hermeneutic is supposedly literal interpretation of Scripture. Yet the most relevant and understandable passage of Scripture that teaches a general resurrection and judgment is spiritualized, and profanely splintered, by dispensationalists simply because refutes the fable that passes for dispensational doctrine.
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. //
Your mantra is getting lame.
1. the stuff you call 'dispensational' (which word, alas, has no SPELL CHECK equivalent ) is not as you suggest
2. you fail to tell us what 'literal hour' means.
3. you fail to admit that 'hour' here is NOT LITERAL but a figure of speech.
4. you fail to agree or disagree (with a good substitue) with our definition:
hour = the appropriate time
Item 3
On what basis do you say that hour is a figure of speech? That is nonsense and is simply because it refutes the dispensational fable of a rapture and multiple resurrections for which there is absolutely no Scriptural basis, only the so-called revelation to one Margaret MacDonald.
Items 2 & 4. There is no substitute for Scripture Ed, you should know that. Yet dispensationalists have substituted the fables of man for Scripture.
The most clear and significant passage in all of Scripture regarding the general resurrection and judgment is a teaching by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:
John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally, or as dispensationalist Ryrie would say, taken at face value. The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word hora and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:
1. a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a. of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2. the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3. a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4. any definite time, point of time, moment
Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word hora obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:
Matthew 26:40, KJV
40. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Matthew 27:45, KJV
45. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.
There is no rational way that this definite period of time can be twisted to mean two definite periods of time separated by 1007 years except by dispensationalists who choose to believe an esoteric fable rather than the words of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
John 5:28, 29
28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. //
Your mantra is getting lame.
1. the stuff you call 'dispensational' (which word, alas, has no SPELL CHECK equivalent ) is not as you suggest
2. you fail to tell us what 'literal hour' means.
3. you fail to admit that 'hour' here is NOT LITERAL but a figure of speech.
4. you fail to agree or disagree (with a good substitue) with our definition:
hour = the appropriate time
Item 3
On what basis do you say that hour is a figure of speech? That is nonsense and is simply because it refutes the dispensational fable of a rapture and multiple resurrections for which there is absolutely no Scriptural basis, only the so-called revelation to one Margaret MacDonald.
Items 2 & 4. There is no substitute for Scripture Ed, you should know that. Yet dispensationalists have substituted the fables of man for Scripture.
The most clear and significant passage in all of Scripture regarding the general resurrection and judgment is a teaching by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:
John 5:28,29, KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally, or as dispensationalist Ryrie would say, taken at face value. The word translated ‘hour’ is from the Greek word hora and occurs 108 times in the New Testament. It is translated hour 89 times. The meaning of the word [from Thayer's Greek Lexicon] is as follows:
1. a certain definite time or season fixed by natural law and returning with the revolving year
1a. of the seasons of the year, spring, summer, autumn, winter
2. the daytime [bounded by the rising and setting of the sun], a day
3. a twelfth part of the day-time, an hour, [the twelve hours of the day are reckoned from the rising to the setting of the sun]
4. any definite time, point of time, moment
Two passages in the New Testament where the usage of the word hora obviously refers to a brief period of time or a specific time are as follows:
Matthew 26:40, KJV
40. And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Matthew 27:45, KJV
45. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. I am not alone in this belief. The vast majority of Baptist Confessions throughout Baptist history also contend for a general resurrection and judgment.
There is no rational way that this definite period of time can be twisted to mean two definite periods of time separated by 1007 years except by dispensationalists who choose to believe an esoteric fable rather than the words of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
// On what basis do you say that hour is a figure of speech? //
Before I showed how John 5:28 has the good and bad resurrected in the same hour. Revelation 20 has the good and bad resurrected in the same 1,000 years.
2 Peter 3:10 has ALL FINAL EVENTS happen in the "DAY of the Lord".
'All Final events' includes the resurrection of life and the resuurection of damnation.
1 literal hour
1 literal day
1K literal years
just are NOT equal.
If one guesses one of the three different times to be 'right' and 'literal' then the other two have to be 'figure of speech'. Otherwise the Scripture meaning assigned contradicts itself. Any 'guess' as to which of the three is 'literal' causes the same problem - the other two are 'figure of speech'. So which do you believe and why? Personally I've chosen that all three are 'figure of speech'.
What is the Scriptural purpose of Prophecy? Be sure to pick a purpose that can be a 'figure of speech'.
// There is no substitute for Scripture Ed, you should know that. Yet dispensationalists have substituted the fables of man for Scripture. //
If it makes you feel any better I am NOT a dispensationalist as you define then. I have an Eschatology Doctrine that is: a non-dispie, pre-tribulation rapture2, pre-millennial dual-phase Second Coming of Messiah Jesus, futurist.
Feel free to show how you understand the truth of all three of: John 5:28-29 (hour), Revelation 20:1-7 (Millennium), 2 Peter 3:10 (Day of the Lord). So far it seems to me (I really don't believe it, but maybe so) that your solution is to just delete or ignore Revelation 20:1-7 and 2 Peter 3:10. I've seen other folks who say that 2 Peter 3:10 is right and ignore or delete Rev20 and John 5:28-29.
Before I showed how John 5:28 has the good and bad resurrected in the same hour. Revelation 20 has the good and bad resurrected in the same 1,000 years.
2 Peter 3:10 has ALL FINAL EVENTS happen in the "DAY of the Lord".
'All Final events' includes the resurrection of life and the resuurection of damnation.
1 literal hour
1 literal day
1K literal years
just are NOT equal.
If one guesses one of the three different times to be 'right' and 'literal' then the other two have to be 'figure of speech'. Otherwise the Scripture meaning assigned contradicts itself. Any 'guess' as to which of the three is 'literal' causes the same problem - the other two are 'figure of speech'. So which do you believe and why? Personally I've chosen that all three are 'figure of speech'.
What is the Scriptural purpose of Prophecy? Be sure to pick a purpose that can be a 'figure of speech'.
// There is no substitute for Scripture Ed, you should know that. Yet dispensationalists have substituted the fables of man for Scripture. //
If it makes you feel any better I am NOT a dispensationalist as you define then. I have an Eschatology Doctrine that is: a non-dispie, pre-tribulation rapture2, pre-millennial dual-phase Second Coming of Messiah Jesus, futurist.
Feel free to show how you understand the truth of all three of: John 5:28-29 (hour), Revelation 20:1-7 (Millennium), 2 Peter 3:10 (Day of the Lord). So far it seems to me (I really don't believe it, but maybe so) that your solution is to just delete or ignore Revelation 20:1-7 and 2 Peter 3:10. I've seen other folks who say that 2 Peter 3:10 is right and ignore or delete Rev20 and John 5:28-29.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
Revelation 20:1-7
1. And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Ed
In verse 20:4 we are told that the Apostle John say souls, not resurrected bodies. Then if we take this passage at "face Value" as Ryrie describes literal interpretation Verse 20:5 tells us that the first resurrection comes at the end of the 1000 years, not the beginning. Then verse 20:6 tells us that these who had part in the first resurrection reigned with Jesus Christ 1000 years. Does that add up to 2000 years or what? Confusing isn't it? By the way what was the first resurrection, and only resurrection to date?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Elder Brother OldRegular speaking of Revelation 2:1-7: // In verse 20:4 we are told that the Apostle John say souls, not resurrected bodies. //
Those 'souls' had had their heads cut off. Ever figure out how you can tell a soul has had it's body's head cut off? They were 'souls' = human living resurrected bodies
Elder Brother OldRegular speaking of Revelation 2:1-7: // Then if we take this passage at "face Value" as Ryrie describes literal interpretation Verse 20:5 tells us that the first resurrection comes at the end of the 1000 years, not the beginning. //
I don't know what Ryrie says. I just know the most common meaning of Revelation 2:1-7 is that the First Resurrection is done by the beginning of the 1,000 years, not the end.
BTW, Brother Elder, God requires me to check out every scripture to see if the person cut & pasted right It would help me serve God better if you told me EVERY TIME YOU QUOTE SCRIPTURE, which translation you got it from. Thank you.
Revelation 20:4E-5 (NIV = New International Version):
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
This is the first resurrection.
This is quite a bit clearer than the translation you used. It notes that the people who were resurrected STARTED REIGNING and "reigned with Christ a thousand years". That resurrection is called the FIRST RESURRECTION.
BTW, to get your misunderstanding of Revelation 20:5, one needs to skip reading. Revelation 20:4 talks about two groups of people resurrected as Jesus Comes back to Earth (AKA: Day of the Lord, Second Coming). Do you see your name on either list? I hope I'm in this group (KJV) "I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them". But if Jesus puts me in this group, that will be fine:
(KLJV1611 Edition): "I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their hands"
Between the two groups is a big ol' Ampersand ( & ). It is an 'and' in English - a translation from an 'Kai' in Greek.
I find 9/10s of all the variants in Eschatology built on a dozen or so 'and's. This ampersand splits out the pre-mill Second Coming People, futurist who believe in only a one working day (8 hrs) Second Coming of Christ in a post-trib only manner. This ampersand splits out the pre-mill Second Coming People, futurist who believe in a seven year, 70th Week of Daniel, Second Coming of Christ in both a pre-trib gathering of the Church Age elect saints and a post-trib gathering of the Tribulation elect saints. Here IMHO 'and' means the two groups of people are two different sets of people from two different times: The rulers from those resurrected at the beginning of the Tribulation and those resurrected bodies back with their resurrected heads resurrected at the end of the Tribulation - both resurrected at the Day of the Lord = Tribulation Period, Second Return of Christ.
I have scriptural, logical, and non-scriptural proofs off all this - but most people don't want to bother with the two years it takes to understand the matter. Why the Lord is (and has since AD 70) been coming back SOON..
BTW, most people get their elementary school arithmetic messed up:
'First' is a position term meaning: leading the rest in time, authority, importance or significance
'One' is a numbering term meaning: a single thing, person, or entity.
'One and only one' is a phrase used to add emphasis to the singularity
'First Resurrection' does not mean the same as 'one Resurrection'
Revelation 20:1-7 does NOT prove there is 'one and only one Resurrection'. But some want "first Resurrection" = 'one and only one Resurrection' to be so, that they misunderstand or deceive others into thinking they are right.
{Computer Geeks counting numbers| 0,1,2,3,4,5, ... }
So the first Computer counting number is ZERO, not ONE.
{Counting numbers for the rest of us| 1,2,3,4, ... }
The first counting number is ONE here, not ZERO)
(( both sets are infinite sets, each with NO LAST NUMBER ))
Those 'souls' had had their heads cut off. Ever figure out how you can tell a soul has had it's body's head cut off? They were 'souls' = human living resurrected bodies
Elder Brother OldRegular speaking of Revelation 2:1-7: // Then if we take this passage at "face Value" as Ryrie describes literal interpretation Verse 20:5 tells us that the first resurrection comes at the end of the 1000 years, not the beginning. //
I don't know what Ryrie says. I just know the most common meaning of Revelation 2:1-7 is that the First Resurrection is done by the beginning of the 1,000 years, not the end.
BTW, Brother Elder, God requires me to check out every scripture to see if the person cut & pasted right
It would help me serve God better if you told me EVERY TIME YOU QUOTE SCRIPTURE, which translation you got it from. Thank you.Revelation 20:4E-5 (NIV = New International Version):
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
This is the first resurrection.
This is quite a bit clearer than the translation you used. It notes that the people who were resurrected STARTED REIGNING and "reigned with Christ a thousand years". That resurrection is called the FIRST RESURRECTION.
BTW, to get your misunderstanding of Revelation 20:5, one needs to skip reading. Revelation 20:4 talks about two groups of people resurrected as Jesus Comes back to Earth (AKA: Day of the Lord, Second Coming). Do you see your name on either list? I hope I'm in this group (KJV) "I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them". But if Jesus puts me in this group, that will be fine:
(KLJV1611 Edition): "I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads, or in their hands"
Between the two groups is a big ol' Ampersand ( & ). It is an 'and' in English - a translation from an 'Kai' in Greek.
I find 9/10s of all the variants in Eschatology built on a dozen or so 'and's. This ampersand splits out the pre-mill Second Coming People, futurist who believe in only a one working day (8 hrs) Second Coming of Christ in a post-trib only manner. This ampersand splits out the pre-mill Second Coming People, futurist who believe in a seven year, 70th Week of Daniel, Second Coming of Christ in both a pre-trib gathering of the Church Age elect saints and a post-trib gathering of the Tribulation elect saints. Here IMHO 'and' means the two groups of people are two different sets of people from two different times: The rulers from those resurrected at the beginning of the Tribulation and those resurrected bodies back with their resurrected heads resurrected at the end of the Tribulation - both resurrected at the Day of the Lord = Tribulation Period, Second Return of Christ.
I have scriptural, logical, and non-scriptural proofs off all this - but most people don't want to bother with the two years it takes to understand the matter. Why the Lord is (and has since AD 70) been coming back SOON..
BTW, most people get their elementary school arithmetic messed up:
'First' is a position term meaning: leading the rest in time, authority, importance or significance
'One' is a numbering term meaning: a single thing, person, or entity.
'One and only one' is a phrase used to add emphasis to the singularity
'First Resurrection' does not mean the same as 'one Resurrection'
Revelation 20:1-7 does NOT prove there is 'one and only one Resurrection'. But some want "first Resurrection" = 'one and only one Resurrection' to be so, that they misunderstand or deceive others into thinking they are right.
{Computer Geeks counting numbers| 0,1,2,3,4,5, ... }
So the first Computer counting number is ZERO, not ONE.
{Counting numbers for the rest of us| 1,2,3,4, ... }
The first counting number is ONE here, not ZERO)
(( both sets are infinite sets, each with NO LAST NUMBER ))
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ed, Ed
You can’t cut the head off of a soul. Besides John does not say that he saw headless souls. He said: I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus
You say: “I just know the most common meaning of Revelation 2:1-7 is that the First Resurrection is done by the beginning of the 1,000 years, not the end.”
That may be the common meaning to premillennialists but it is not the common meaning of most people. Even dispensationalists say the first resurection is 1007 years before the end.
By the way I use the KJV unless otherwise noted.
Ed
The NIV is not a translation, it is a paraphrase, though its authors call it a dynamic equivalence, a substitute for a consise paraphrase. A paraphrase is where the authors make the passage read the way they think, not what God says!
Ed, Ed
I am not sure what you mean by “skip reading”. However, if we take Verse 4 at face value [per Ryrie] then these souls include only the people martyred during the so-called great tribulation since that is when the beast is supposed to appear.
Ed
If you are going to count ands [or big ol' Ampersands] then there are three groups. However, all that being said John saw souls not resurrected bodies.
Ed
I can’t accept non scriptural proofs. I have been trying to tell you dispensationalists for years that dispensationalism is a fable invented by Darby, based on a New revelation given in unknown tongues to one Margaret MacDonald, and propagated in this country by Cyrus Scofield. I am glad you finally admit it.
Not being a mathematical genius you lost me on the above. However, I can state with mathematical certainty that the very first and only resurrection to date was that of Jesus Christ
Acts 26:19-23, KJV
19. Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
20. But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
22. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23. That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
1 Corinthians 15:12-20, KJV
12. Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13. But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14. And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
A riddle for you Ed. Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection. Who are those who have part in this First Resurrection?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
// A riddle for you Ed. Jesus Christ is the First Resurrection. Who are those who have part in this First Resurrection? //
Tell me your "proper exegesis of Scripture" on the text below that makes yoiur quote above correct.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is hee, that hath part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death hath no power: but they shalbe the Priests of God and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeere.
1 Cor 15:20 quoted above (post #52):
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Here is my writing on 5 resurrections that I want to talk about:
-----------------------------------------
Five Resurrections:
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted
(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)
The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
Definitions:
New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.
How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:
Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.
407 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:
1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8
2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
I define this as Rapture2 = the pre-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1.
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 31 Mar 2008;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
I define this as Resurrection2 = the post-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,
5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15
CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.
There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):
2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)
3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)
5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)
Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).
The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.
CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.
May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!
Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.
--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
---------------------------
One SURE Resurrection:
Everybody will be resurrected for judgement
Two types of Resurrection:
1. resurrection of the just (in Christ) - also called FIRST RESURRECTION
2. resurrection of the unjust (not in Christ) - also implied SECOND RESURRECTION
Five resurrections at different are mentioned in the article above for it is the Plan of Salvation, written in resurrection terms.
Tell me your "proper exegesis of Scripture" on the text below that makes yoiur quote above correct.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is hee, that hath part in the first resurrection: for on such the second death hath no power: but they shalbe the Priests of God and of Christ, and shall reigne with him a thousand yeere.
1 Cor 15:20 quoted above (post #52):
20. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Here is my writing on 5 resurrections that I want to talk about:
-----------------------------------------
\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/
\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/
\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/
Five Resurrections:
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted
(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)
The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
Definitions:
New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.
How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:
Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.
407 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:
1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8
2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
I define this as Rapture2 = the pre-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1.
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 31 Mar 2008;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
I define this as Resurrection2 = the post-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,
5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15
CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.
There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):
2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)
3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)
5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)
Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).
The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.
CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.
May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!
Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.
--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque
---------------------------
One SURE Resurrection:
Everybody will be resurrected for judgement
Two types of Resurrection:
1. resurrection of the just (in Christ) - also called FIRST RESURRECTION
2. resurrection of the unjust (not in Christ) - also implied SECOND RESURRECTION
Five resurrections at different are mentioned in the article above for it is the Plan of Salvation, written in resurrection terms.
\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Five 'and's of Eschatology
Part 5. Revelation 20:4
Part 5. Revelation 20:4
Subtitle: that separate the rapture2 from the resurrection2
(files: 5andsOFeschn.txt where n=0 to 5. File 5,
Last edited, 8Dec08)
(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)
5. Revelation 20:4
Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
*note, 'neither' is a joiner like 'and' meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's
All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).
You can quote me as saying:
"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."
The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------
resurection1 is when Jesus raises groups of dead saints to life & gives them a new body
rapture1 is like a resurrection1 only with living saints
rapture2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
before the tribulation period
resurrection 2 is a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1
after the tribulation period
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ed
If you keep at it long enough you will be up to 3 raptures and perhaps 5 resurrections like Walvoord.
If you keep at it long enough you will be up to 3 raptures and perhaps 5 resurrections like Walvoord.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
That would be better than snipping a verse from God's Word here, a chapter from the Scripture there, and whole Bibles over yonder.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
MB said:
I agree. However there is no Scripture to support one rapture, much less three.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ed Edwards said:
// Not being a mathematical genius you lost me on the above. //
Tee Hee, I said in introduction // BTW, most people get their elementary school arithmetic messed up: // Of course BTW = by the way. I know when I taught Geometry in 1969 I started teaching some set theory. Set arithemetic was also being taught in Enginering school when I took in 1973-1975. I guess set theory wasn't taught to engineers 15-20 years earlier (1953-1960)?
// Ed
I can’t accept non scriptural proofs. I have been trying to tell you dispensationalists for years that dispensationalism is a fable invented by Darby, based on a New revelation given in unknown tongues to one Margaret MacDonald, and propagated in this country by Cyrus Scofield. I am glad you finally admit it. //
You contradict yourself. You say you can't accept non-scirptural proofs then you try to make one??? It would work better for you if you didn't buy line-hook-and-sinker a lying-spirit's revisionist history. Margaret MacDonald did not influence Darby, but I can't prove that from the Bible. Strange though, like a DOUBLE STANDARD - I have to prove from the Bible but you get to use secular history???
// By the way I use the KJV unless otherwise noted. //
Which KJV? I'm required by God to check each Bible quotation used on the Topics I read. I check to see if the cut & paste was done right. You have some indication when you cut and paste which KJV you are using - well, you should.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
Can you prove Margaret MacDonald did not influence Darby. I have posted two web sites that indicate the possibility. It is a historical fact that Darby visited this country six times and that Scofield was influenced by Darby. Scofield is the father of American Dispensationalism. That is also a historical fact.
Ed Edwards said:
I wonder if you are the only one on this Forum who is required to check each Bible quotation for accuracy.
I use the 1767 version of the KJV. I have a 1611 version but the old English did not know the difference between a "u" and a "v".