• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

#2 Second Coming of Messiah Yeshua

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ed Edwards said:
Dictionary of PreMillennial Theology (Kregel, 1996), Mal Couch, general Editior says on the MacDonald, Margaret article, page 244:

// Margaret Macdonald (1815-ca. 1840) is alleged by Dave MacPherson, a posttribulational polemist to be the originator of pretribulationism as a result of a prophetic revelation in the spring of 1830. Even though there is no actual evidence to support his claim, MacPherson is correct that his spurious charge has served to make the fifteen-year-old Scottish lass "a household name in Christian circles." //
// Can you prove Margaret MacDonald did not influence Darby. //

I already have. But some Bubbas cannot believe a proof unless it comes from the Bible. Google this:

"Dictionary of Premillennial Theology" site:baptistboard.com

You will find that on page 21 of this very topic I PROVED that Margaret MacDonald is a fiction made my Dave MacPherson, unchecked post-tribbite ONLYist. That was nine days ago. If Dave MacPherson made it up, then it might not have happened. These guys who wrote that Dictionary seem fairly competent, you know.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
// I wonder if you are the only one on this Forum who is required to check each Bible quotation for accuracy. //

I read it in my Bibles:

Acts 17:10-12 (NIV):
As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue.
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
12 Many of the Jews believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.


When the Lord called me to the BB, I was instructed to check every Bible reference that was possible to check and report the folk who can not or do not Cut and Paste right. There are some folks, you know, who took a vow never to read anything but the King James Bible. So they don't bother to check when an anti-Bible person quotes some other Bible and do it WRONG. They just quote the person they trusted who lied. I expose that.

But that is just part of my calling here.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Ed Edwards
Dictionary of PreMillennial Theology (Kregel, 1996), Mal Couch, general Editior says on the MacDonald, Margaret article, page 244:

// Margaret Macdonald (1815-ca. 1840) is alleged by Dave MacPherson, a posttribulational polemist to be the originator of pretribulationism as a result of a prophetic revelation in the spring of 1830. Even though there is no actual evidence to support his claim, MacPherson is correct that his spurious charge has served to make the fifteen-year-old Scottish lass "a household name in Christian circles." //

Question by OldRegular
Can you prove Margaret MacDonald did not influence Darby.

Further Post by Ed Edwards
I already have. But some Bubbas cannot believe a proof unless it comes from the Bible. Google this:

"Dictionary of Premillennial Theology" site:baptistboard.com

You will find that on page 21 of this very topic I PROVED that Margaret MacDonald is a fiction made my Dave MacPherson, unchecked post-tribbite ONLYist. That was nine days ago. If Dave MacPherson made it up, then it might not have happened. These guys who wrote that Dictionary seem fairly competent, you know.

Not Really ED!

I have posted the following before but apparently you did not read it!

Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] the origin of ‘the secret rapture’ is the result of a prophetic utterance in the Catholic Apostolic Church. This utterance was supposedly in tongues, interpreted by someone and considered “a revelation”. There is much dispute as to whether the so-called revelation occured in Irving’s church or elsewhere and was then discovered by Irving. The origin of this ‘revelation’ has been attributed to Margaret Macdonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. Whether all of this is historical truth is obviously subject to debate. However, it is apparently historical fact that there was a split within the Plymouth Brethern as the result of Darby’s acceptance of the two event Second Coming and the ‘parenthesis church’.
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
OldRegular said:
Not Really ED!

I have posted the following before but apparently you did not read it!

Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] the origin of ‘the secret rapture’ is the result of a prophetic utterance in the Catholic Apostolic Church. This utterance was supposedly in tongues, interpreted by someone and considered “a revelation”. There is much dispute as to whether the so-called revelation occured in Irving’s church or elsewhere and was then discovered by Irving. The origin of this ‘revelation’ has been attributed to Margaret Macdonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. Whether all of this is historical truth is obviously subject to debate. However, it is apparently historical fact that there was a split within the Plymouth Brethern as the result of Darby’s acceptance of the two event Second Coming and the ‘parenthesis church’.

When I research these matters I keep finding pro-KJVO propaganda, based on the works of Dave MacPherson. I also find some anti-KJVO sites that debate the truth of these documents.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
When I research these matters I keep finding pro-KJVO propaganda, based on the works of Dave MacPherson. I also find some anti-KJVO sites that debate the truth of these documents.


I don't know what your point is!:smilewinkgrin:
 

jilphn1022

New Member
More About Margaret Macdonald

Ed Edwards may not know that Tyndale Seminary, which Mal Couch headed, was fined more than $100,000 for illegally issuing degrees. (Google "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers" for World Net Daily's proof of this.) When Thomas Ice flaunts Tyndale's unaccredited "Dr." before his name, he's just as dishonest as someone who isn't authorized to print US paper money but does so anyway. (And Scofield began putting an unauthorized "Dr." before his name in the 1890's.) This is the Ice who's been maliciously spreading the lies that MacPherson has been fabricating a false history of pretrib since 1970 and that MacPherson has written only one book and keeps re-issuing it under different titles - lies being repeated by Strandberg, Reagan and other desperados while they watch the "handwriting on the wall" signaling, with the help of scary world events, the demise of their 179-year-old, money-making-but-increasingly-breaking, British-invented theory! But who on earth can believe that many evangelical leaders would endorse a "false" history of pretrib (Google "Scholars Weigh My Research"), or that all of MacPherson's various publishers would be totally ignorant of his previously published works? What we're really witnessing is Ice's great embarrassment over MacPherson's discovery that Ice, when reproducing Macdonald's short revelation account, somehow left out 48 words (which changed the meaning!) - the same 48 words that LaHaye left out when he reproduced it three years later! Ed Edwards should know that the world is filled with misguided persons who view themselves as great researchers and writers - and who will continue to do so until the the earth mercifully ends their "career" with a tornado or earthquake or cancer or something else. Since the Lord has always allowed people to be warned ahead of time when disasters like Noah's flood and Sodom and Gomorrah were to happen, it wouldn't be like Him to not let folks be warned about a future great tribulation. Since the Lord has also said that judgment will begin FIRST "at the house of God," do any of us think He will overlook those on message boards who seemingly argue for the sake of arguing or those who will have to learn some things the hard, screaming way? Thinkers, anyone?
 

Allan

Active Member
Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] the origin of ‘the secret rapture’ is the result of a prophetic utterance in the Catholic Apostolic Church. This utterance was supposedly in tongues, interpreted by someone and considered “a revelation”. There is much dispute as to whether the so-called revelation occured in Irving’s church or elsewhere and was then discovered by Irving. The origin of this ‘revelation’ has been attributed to Margaret Macdonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. Whether all of this is historical truth is obviously subject to debate. However, it is apparently historical fact that there was a split within the Plymouth Brethern as the result of Darby’s acceptance of the two event Second Coming and the ‘parenthesis church’.
OldRegular, you keep putting this up and bolding the section I have so done above as though it is some kind of hirstorical fact. Oh, yes you do put a disclaimer at the bottom but you never seem to hightlight that part now do you. So I did for you and made it a little large too.

Here are some interestiong citation (taken from the Biblicist website)
SCHOLARS DO NOT ACCEPT THE BIG LIE

The various "rapture origin" theories espoused by opponents of pre-tribulationism are not accepted as historically valid by scholars who have examined the evidence. The only ones who appear to have accepted these theories are those who already are opposed to the pre-trib rapture. A look at various scholars and historians reveals that they think, in varying degrees, that MacPherson has not proven his point. Most, if not all who are quoted below do not hold to the pre-trib rapture teaching. Ernest R. Sandeen declares,

This seems to be a groundless and pernicious charge. Neither Irving nor any member of the Albury group advocated any doctrine resembling the secret rapture. . . . Since the clear intention of this charge is to discredit the doctrine by attributing its origin to fanaticism rather than Scripture, there seems little ground for giving it any credence.22

Historian Timothy P. Weber's evaluation is a follows:

The pretribulation rapture was a neat solution to a thorny problem and historians are still trying to determine how or where Darby got it. . . .

A newer though still not totally convincing view contends that the doctrine initially appeared in a prophetic vision of Margaret Macdonald, . . .

Possibly, we may have to settle for Darby's own explanation. He claimed that the doctrine virtually jumped out of the pages of Scripture once he accepted and consistently maintained the distinction between Israel and the church.23

American historian Richard R. Reiter informs us that,

[Robert] Cameron probably traced this important but apparently erroneous view back to S. P. Tregelles, . . . Recently more detailed study on this view as the origin of pretribulationism appeared in works by Dave McPherson, . . . historian Ian S. Rennie . . . regarded McPherson's case as interesting but not conclusive.24

Posttribulationist William E. Bell asserts that,

It seems only fair, however, in the absence of eyewitnesses to settle the argument conclusively, that the benefit of the doubt should be given to Darby, and that the charge made by Tregelles be regarded as a possibility but with insufficient support to merit its acceptance. . . . On the whole, however, it seems that Darby is perhaps the most likely choice--with help from Tweedy. This conclusion is greatly strengthened by Darby's own claim to have arrived at the doctrine through his study of II Thessalonians 2:1-2. 25

Pre-trib rapture opponent John Bray does not accept the MacPherson thesis either.

He [Darby] rejected those practices, and he already had his new view of the Lord coming FOR THE SAINTS (as contrasted to the later coming to the earth) which he had believed since 1827, . . . It was the coupling of this "70th week of Daniel" prophecy and its futuristic interpretation, with the teaching of the "secret rapture," that gave to us the completed "Pre-tribulation Secret Rapture" teaching as it has now been taught for many years. . . . makes it impossible for me to believe that Darby got his Pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching from Margaret MacDonald's vision in 1830. He was already a believer in it since 1827, as he plainly said.26

Huebner considers MacPherson's charges as "using slander that J. N. Darby took the (truth of the) pretribulation rapture from those very opposing, demon-inspired utterances."27 He goes on to conclude that MacPherson did not profit by reading the utterances allegedly by Miss M. M. Instead of apprehending the plain import of her statements, as given by R. Norton, which has some affinity to the post-tribulation scheme and no real resemblance to the pretribulation rapture and dispensational truth, he has read into it what he appears so anxious to find.28


CONCLUSION

F. F. Bruce, who was part of the Brethren movement his entire life, but one who did not agree with the pre-trib rapture said the following when commenting on the validity of MacPherson's thesis:

Where did he [Darby] get it? The reviewer's answer would be that it was in the air in the 1820s and 1830s among eager students of unfulfilled prophecy, . . . direct dependence by Darby on Margaret Macdonald is unlikely.29

John Walvoord's assessment is likely close to the truth:

Any careful student of Darby soon discovers that he did not get his eschatological views from men, but rather from his doctrine of the church as the body of Christ, a concept no one claims was revealed supernaturally to Irving or Macdonald. Darby's views undoubtedly were gradually formed, but they were theologically and biblically based rather than derived from Irving's pre-Pentecostal group.30

I challenge opponents of the pre-trib rapture to stick to a discussion of this matter based upon the Scriptures. While some have done this, many have not been so honest. To call the pre-trib position Satanic, as Rosenthal has done, does not help anyone in this discussion. Such rhetoric will only serve to cause greater polarization of the two views. However, when pre-trib opponents make false charges about the history of the pre-trib view we must respond. And respond we will in our next issue where we will present a clear pre-trib rapture statement from the fourth or fifth century. This pre-trib rapture statement ante-dates 1830 by almost 1,500 years and will certainly lead to at least a revision of those propagating The Big Lie.
And here are some people who held a pre-trib BEFORE 1830.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Allan

Active Member
jilphn1022 said:
Ed Edwards may not know that Tyndale Seminary, which Mal Couch headed, was fined more than $100,000 for illegally issuing degrees. (Google "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers" for World Net Daily's proof of this.) When Thomas Ice flaunts Tyndale's unaccredited "Dr." before his name, he's just as dishonest as someone who isn't authorized to print US paper money but does so anyway. (And Scofield began putting an unauthorized "Dr." before his name in the 1890's.) This is the Ice who's been maliciously spreading the lies that MacPherson has been fabricating a false history of pretrib since 1970 and that MacPherson has written only one book and keeps re-issuing it under different titles - lies being repeated by Strandberg, Reagan and other desperados while they watch the "handwriting on the wall" signaling, with the help of scary world events, the demise of their 179-year-old, money-making-but-increasingly-breaking, British-invented theory! But who on earth can believe that many evangelical leaders would endorse a "false" history of pretrib (Google "Scholars Weigh My Research"), or that all of MacPherson's various publishers would be totally ignorant of his previously published works? What we're really witnessing is Ice's great embarrassment over MacPherson's discovery that Ice, when reproducing Macdonald's short revelation account, somehow left out 48 words (which changed the meaning!) - the same 48 words that LaHaye left out when he reproduced it three years later! Ed Edwards should know that the world is filled with misguided persons who view themselves as great researchers and writers - and who will continue to do so until the the earth mercifully ends their "career" with a tornado or earthquake or cancer or something else. Since the Lord has always allowed people to be warned ahead of time when disasters like Noah's flood and Sodom and Gomorrah were to happen, it wouldn't be like Him to not let folks be warned about a future great tribulation. Since the Lord has also said that judgment will begin FIRST "at the house of God," do any of us think He will overlook those on message boards who seemingly argue for the sake of arguing or those who will have to learn some things the hard, screaming way? Thinkers, anyone?
Funny, Ice points out their poor scholarly work and now this brother is Christ called a liar. Macpherson did an ABSOLUTELY poor job in his research and conspiracy theory regarding the pre-trib view - which makes his work actaully more fictional than anything.

But you can believe who or what you want but I personally would be careful called or equating a fellow brother in Christ with Satan and His works. God just might have something to say about that 'against' you.
 

Allan

Active Member
Allan said:
And here are some people who held a pre-trib BEFORE 1830.
Oops.. left off the names, here they are some of those who held and proclaimed a pre-trib view BEFORE 1830 (other than John Darby)

Joseph Mede (1586-1638); Edward Bickersteth (1786-1850); James H. Frere (1779-1866); William Cuninghame (1775-1849); amoung various others.
 

Me4Him

New Member
Possibly, we may have to settle for Darby's own explanation. He claimed that the doctrine virtually jumped out of the pages of Scripture once he accepted and consistently maintained the distinction between Israel and the church.23

Having arrived at the same conclusion, for the same reason, I'm inclined to believe Darby.

I've never read anything Darby wrote, but having been there, it's easy to recognize others that have "traveled the same route" by their description of the route.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Repeated and selectively highlighted post [ad infinitum] by OldRegular
Martyn Lloyd-Jones in his book, The Church and Last Things, asserts that Darby was influenced by Edward Irving, a charismatic Scottish preacher, who established a new church in London called the Catholic Apostolic Church. As reported by Lloyd-Jones [page 138] the origin of ‘the secret rapture’ is the result of a prophetic utterance in the Catholic Apostolic Church. This utterance was supposedly in tongues, interpreted by someone and considered “a revelation”. There is much dispute as to whether the so-called revelation occured in Irving’s church or elsewhere and was then discovered by Irving. The origin of this ‘revelation’ has been attributed to Margaret Macdonald of Port Glasgow, Scotland. Her revelation was first published in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald, of Port Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. Norton published it again in The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp. 15-18. Whether all of this is historical truth is obviously subject to debate. However, it is apparently historical fact that there was a split within the Plymouth Brethern as the result of Darby’s acceptance of the two event Second Coming and the ‘parenthesis church’.

Response by Allan
OldRegular, you keep putting this up and bolding the section I have so done above as though it is some kind of hirstorical fact. Oh, yes you do put a disclaimer at the bottom but you never seem to hightlight that part now do you. So I did for you and made it a little large too.

So what is your point?

Further Response by Allan

SCHOLARS DO NOT ACCEPT THE BIG LIE

Historian Timothy P. Weber's evaluation is a follows:

The pretribulation rapture was a neat solution to a thorny problem and historians are still trying to determine how or where Darby got it. . . .

A newer though still not totally convincing view contends that the doctrine initially appeared in a prophetic vision of Margaret Macdonald, . . .

Possibly, we may have to settle for Darby's own explanation. He claimed that the doctrine virtually jumped out of the pages of Scripture once he accepted and consistently maintained the distinction between Israel and the church.

Darby or Margaret MacDonald, which ever is correct, are not alone. The 19th century was a hotbed of new revelation.

Jehovah's Witnesses

Mormons

Seventh Day Adventists

Christian Science
 

Me4Him

New Member
OldRegular said:
Darby or Margaret MacDonald, which ever is correct, are not alone. The 19th century was a hotbed of new revelation.

Jehovah's Witnesses

Mormons

Seventh Day Adventists

Christian Science

Have you ever know Satan not to "mimic" God,

Why shouldn't Satan have his people come up with new revelations at the same time God was beginning to open the seal on Daniel's book???
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Me4Him said:
Have you ever know Satan not to "mimic" God,

Why shouldn't Satan have his people come up with new revelations at the same time God was beginning to open the seal on Daniel's book???

Just what seal are you talking about? Daniel's book is not sealed in my Bible.
 

Marcia

Active Member
OldRegular said:
So what is your point?



Darby or Margaret MacDonald, which ever is correct, are not alone. The 19th century was a hotbed of new revelation.

Jehovah's Witnesses

Mormons

Seventh Day Adventists

Christian Science

The groups above have nothing to do with the pre-trib rapture. And just because the groups above started in the 19th century does not mean all ideas in the 19th century were wrong. Logical fallacy here.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Marcia said:
The groups above have nothing to do with the pre-trib rapture. And just because the groups above started in the 19th century does not mean all ideas in the 19th century were wrong. Logical fallacy here.

Is it logical that God would leave those for whom Jesus Christ died ignorant of the nature of His bride, the Church, for 1800 years? I think not. But that is what dispensationalism teaches.
 

Marcia

Active Member
OldRegular said:
Is it logical that God would leave those for whom Jesus Christ died ignorant of the nature of His bride, the Church, for 1800 years? I think not. But that is what dispensationalism teaches.

Dispensationalism doesn't teach that. That's what anti-Dispensationalism people say it teaches.
 

Me4Him

New Member
OldRegular said:
Just what seal are you talking about? Daniel's book is not sealed in my Bible.

Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Marcia said:
Dispensationalism doesn't teach that. That's what anti-Dispensationalism people say it teaches.

Dispensationalism did not appear on the scene until ~1830. Their view of the Church is different than the orthodox view of the Church. That orthodox view is basically the same as that endorsed by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Me4Him said:
Da 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

This has reference to only one revelation to Daniel [Daniel 12:5-8].
 
Top