#2 Second Coming of Messiah Yeshua

[Allan]

Dispensationalism did not appear on the scene until ~1830.

Wrong, and I have shown you this time and again. Learn something new.
It can be traced back in writtings to at least 1500's, and the you also have the Pre-mil view which has two resurrections, a literal anti-christ, a 1000 year literal kingdom and also seperates the church and Israel (as I showed you according to your own source in a previous thread). THIS view was the original 'orthodox view' of the Church and was even so stated by Justin Martyr... this view was uncontested till about 340'ish (I think) and that by only 4 of the majority of the early church fathers that we have on record. And it did not cease to be the orthodox position of the Church till about 400'ish bc. WHich incidently was the rise of Roman Catholic Church and her Pope.

 

[Marcia]

Dispensationalism did not appear on the scene until ~1830. Their view of the Church is different than the orthodox view of the Church. That orthodox view is basically the same as that endorsed by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

Well, I believe that.

 

[OldRegular]

Wrong, and I have shown you this time and again. Learn something new.
It can be traced back in writtings to at least 1500's, and the you also have the Pre-mil view which has two resurrections, a literal anti-christ, a 1000 year literal kingdom and also seperates the church and Israel (as I showed you according to your own source in a previous thread). THIS view was the original 'orthodox view' of the Church and was even so stated by Justin Martyr... this view was uncontested till about 340'ish (I think) and that by only 4 of the majority of the early church fathers that we have on record. And it did not cease to be the orthodox position of the Church till about 400'ish bc. WHich incidently was the rise of Roman Catholic Church and her Pope.

You are wrong. Only the dispensationalists separate the Church from Spiritual Israel. I understand that historical or covenant premillennialism is the earliest doctrine of eschatology but that doctrine is a far cry from dispensationalism and it does not separate Spiritual Israel from the Church. If you have definitive proof, rather than speculation, that dispensationalism was not started by Darby present it.

 

[Marcia]

Frankly, I don't know any Dispensationalist that believes Jewish believers are separate from other believers or are saved a different way. If that view is out there, I have not been exposed to it, and yet my seminary, mission board, and pastor are Disp.

 

[Amy.G]

Frankly, I don't know any Dispensationalist that believes Jewish believers are separate from other believers or are saved a different way. If that view is out there, I have not been exposed to it, and yet my seminary, mission board, and pastor are Disp.

John Hagee believes this.

 

[J.D.]

Frankly, I don't know any Dispensationalist that believes Jewish believers are separate from other believers or are saved a different way. If that view is out there, I have not been exposed to it, and yet my seminary, mission board, and pastor are Disp.

Did you see Allen's post #81 above? Not only do many modern dispy's do it, but he claims that the church fathers taught it.

 

[Marcia]

John Hagee believes this.

And John Hagee is hardly the poster boy for sound doctrine, imo!

 

[Marcia]

Did you see Allen's post #81 above? Not only do many modern dispy's do it, but he claims that the church fathers taught it.

I read it but don't get your point. I don't think Allan says that believers are saved differently.

 

[J.D.]

I read it but don't get your point. I don't think Allan says that believers are saved differently.

Okay but he does say that Jewish believers are separate from other believers.

 

[OldRegular]

Frankly, I don't know any Dispensationalist that believes Jewish believers are separate from other believers or are saved a different way. If that view is out there, I have not been exposed to it, and yet my seminary, mission board, and pastor are Disp.

The following was posted as the OP on the thread Scripture or Chafer.

The basis for this question was a statement by dispensationalist Lewis Sperry Chafer quoted by Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism, page 39, as follows: “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” Charles C. Ryrie writes about the above statement Dispensationalism, page 39: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.”

 

[Marcia]

I meant to say he doesn't say that Jewish believers are separate from other believers in that post. It was too late to edit.

 

[Marcia]

The following was posted as the OP on the thread Scripture or Chafer.

The basis for this question was a statement by dispensationalist Lewis Sperry Chafer quoted by Charles C. Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism, page 39, as follows: “The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved, which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.” Charles C. Ryrie writes about the above statement Dispensationalism, page 39: “This is probably the most basic theological test of whether or not a person is a dispensationalist, and it is undoubtedly the most practical and conclusive. The one who fails to distinguish Israel and the Church consistently will inevitably not hold to dispensational distinctives; and the one who does will.”

I don't see where it says they are saved differently.

I don't see where seeing a biblical distinction in Israel and the Church means that one does not believe that all believers are saved the same way.

Seeing that God still has plans for Israel and saving more believers from Israel is not saying that that Jewish believers are saved differently from other believers.

Saying that Israel and the Church are both addressed in the NT is not saying that Jewish believers are not part of the church or body of Christ. I think the distinction lies in the endtime salvation of Israel.

 

[Amy.G]

Seeing that God still has plans for Israel and saving more believers from Israel is not saying that that Jewish believers are saved differently from other believers.

Isn't saying that the MK is for the salvation of Jews saying that they are saved differently? Messiah has already come to the Jews and they rejected Him. Why will they get a second chance to see their Messiah face to face? When Jesus said "it is finished", wasn't His work actually finished? When God destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, wasn't He judging them for their rejection of Christ?

The Jews of today and all Jews for the past 2000 years have had the same chance at salvation as all other people of the world. Saying the Jews get another chance to receive their Messiah makes them more "special" than the rest of us and certainly implies that salvation for them is "different".

 

[Allan]

You are wrong. Only the dispensationalists separate the Church from Spiritual Israel. I understand that historical or covenant premillennialism is the earliest doctrine of eschatology but that doctrine is a far cry from dispensationalism and it does not separate Spiritual Israel from the Church. If you have definitive proof, rather than speculation, that dispensationalism was not started by Darby present it.

See post # 70

And your own sourse contradicts you where Pre-mils distinguished between Israel and the Church as seen in my post to you in another thread where you brought it up.

This is under the columb of Historic/Covenant Premil across from the Israel and the Church section :

Physical Israel remains the people of God and will be evangelized.

 

[Marcia]

Isn't saying that the MK is for the salvation of Jews saying that they are saved differently? Messiah has already come to the Jews and they rejected Him. Why will they get a second chance to see their Messiah face to face?

No, that's not what I believe or what people I know say. Jews who are dead won't get a second chance!!! Yikes! Is that what you think is being said??? It's about Jews in Israel in the future. And they are saved before Jesus comes back for all to see.

When Jesus said "it is finished", wasn't His work actually finished? When God destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, wasn't He judging them for their rejection of Christ?

The Jews of today and all Jews for the past 2000 years have had the same chance at salvation as all other people of the world. Saying the Jews get another chance to receive their Messiah makes them more "special" than the rest of us and certainly implies that salvation for them is "different

Amy, I think you've misunderstood. This is God saying he will save "all Israel" and is not done with them (this comes from Rom. 9-11). As has been said before, this does not mean all Jewish people will be saved, but a large number will be so that Israel will be a Christian land, in that sense. They will have no more "other chance" than anyone else in the future except that God has announced more will be saved. This is no different than God saying he was going to go to another people (the Gentiles) and save them.

 

[Allan]

Did you see Allen's post #81 above? Not only do many modern dispy's do it, but he claims that the church fathers taught it.

Apparently you seriously misunderstood what I said.

 

[Ed Edwards]

I don't see where it says they are saved differently.

I don't see where seeing a biblical distinction in Israel and the Church means that one does not believe that all believers are saved the same way.

Seeing that God still has plans for Israel and saving more believers from Israel is not saying that that Jewish believers are saved differently from other believers.

Saying that Israel and the Church are both addressed in the NT is not saying that Jewish believers are not part of the church or body of Christ. I think the distinction lies in the endtime salvation of Israel.

I think I was very clear about this in this topic:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=9

But nobody there wanted to go from the basics of logic (milk) to the Meat of God's Holy/Inerrant Written Word. Let me try in brief

1. There is one way to phrase salvation: TRUST IN THE LORD
2. There are two phrases used to describe being saved:
IN MESSIAH YESHUA & IN CHRIST JESUS

BOTH are correct.

 

[OldRegular]

I don't see where it says they are saved differently.

I don't see where seeing a biblical distinction in Israel and the Church means that one does not believe that all believers are saved the same way.

Seeing that God still has plans for Israel and saving more believers from Israel is not saying that that Jewish believers are saved differently from other believers.

Saying that Israel and the Church are both addressed in the NT is not saying that Jewish believers are not part of the church or body of Christ. I think the distinction lies in the endtime salvation of Israel.

Please note that both Ryrie and Chafer state in the above post that God has two peoples, an earthly people, the Jews or Israel, and a heavenly people, the Church.

Jewish believers are Christians; they are members of the body of Jesus Christ and, therefore, part of the heavenly people.

 

[Marcia]

Please note that both Ryrie and Chafer state in the above post that God has two peoples, an earthly people, the Jews or Israel, and a heavenly people, the Church.

Jewish believers are Christians; they are members of the body of Jesus Christ and, therefore, part of the heavenly people.

Well, I am not sure what they mean by that. And just because they say it doesn't mean I agree.

I doubt they mean that saved Jews are not in heaven.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Please note that both Ryrie and Chafer state in the above
post that God has two peoples, an earthly people, the Jews or Israel, and a
heavenly people, the Church.

Jewish believers are Christians; they are members of the body of Jesus
Christ and, therefore, part of the heavenly people.

Note that both Ryrie and Chafer believe that the rules* are different for
different groups of peoples in different times for God's purposes - NOT FOR
HUMAN PURPOSES. Note that 'OldRegular' does NOT believe

'dispensation theory' so can't seem to comprehend what they actually mean?

*In this context 'rules' means the way God interacts with various groups of
people. Note it is 'God's Dispensations' NOT people's dispensations.

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769 set of Editions):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

As typical, the Bible speaks of the way things are in many ages both Physical
and Spiritual. In the Current age (Church Age, Time of the Gentiles, Age of
Grace, Age of Gentiles, etc) - in general - the National Jewish Church

(including some Levites (sp?priestly tribe) & Benjamin) are separate by

unbelief from the mostly Gentile Church. In the tween-time (Tribulation

Judgment Period, 70th Week of Daniel) the Gentile Age saints church will be

gone - many National Jews will be saved - enough to be called 'all' of them. In

the Glorious Kingdom Age of our (we National Jewish Church and Gentile

Age Church) Lord and Savior, Messiah Yeshua -- both the CHURCH OF

GOD and the JEWS will be one again. In the Eternal CHURCH OF GOD the

JEWS and the CHURCH OF GOD WILL BE ONE.