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#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

How do you relate the Rapture and Tribulation?

  • rapture is spiritual not physical

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    33
  • Poll closed .

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Ed Edwards said:
Why?

Why does God have about things that are going on
the the future sometime?

I repost the following because of the passage from
1 Thess-4&5. I underline & enlarge
the two parts I think that
answer my Why Eschatology? question.

---------------------------------


The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words[/u.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another,
just as you also are doing.

I've underlined a command to comfort each
other with these things. I personally don't see how
we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
we ask you" in verse 1 and
the falling away comes first.
The second is the only mention of the first
in the rest of the chapter.

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millinnial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

----------------------------------------

How is Ezekiel 39 to be fullfilled if it
doesn't happen in the Church AGe or
in the Tribulation Period -- it is going to
happen? YES it will happen but
can't in a post-tribulation rapture only
scenario where the world comes to an End
as soon as Jesus steps on the earth and
tosses Satan & the Anti-christ into hell.


GE

Please Ed, forgive me, but this is all very confusing to me. I think if you could just leave out using the word 'rapture', you will make yourself more clear. Why so complicate? If Christ comes only once and there is only on resurrection when He comes again and the earth is made new with His coming, then say it!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
from this page:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=42747&page=35
...
The "Coming of the Lord" AND
"our Gathering Together to Him" are two different
sets of events.

I STAND at the door AND knock -- one event.

If I GO away I will come again AND RECEIVE you to myself IN ORDER THAT where I AM there YOU may be also -- one event.

COME unto ME AND I will give you rest -- one event.

INSERTING unknown gaps of time to slice and dice Daniel's 70 weeks -- and inserting 7 year gaps into John 14... doesn't stand up to the test of scripture.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Option 2 – slicing and dicing timelines by inserting 2000 year gaps of time into them


Two disContiguous timelines in Dan 9

Dan 9:1-2 – 70 YEARS of Jeremiah (gaps unknown – end unknown)

Result: Israel still in Babylon today --



Dan 9 24 70 WEEKS of YEARS (490 year timeline – sliced up)

490 years

457 AD. - Start with decree to rebuild Jerusalem
49 years - (7 weeks of years) to complete

<Gap of 2000 years?>

62 weeks of years (434 years)

<gap of 2000 years??

We would still be waiting for Messiah!!

70th week – (Tribulation week of years)
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
from:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=42747&page=35

DeafPretrib said:
Even, throughout in the whole New Testament books, do not give a clear proof of a verse saying that Christ shall come again before tribulation. Also, not even, a verse shows us there is two future comings in the N.T. The N.T. books telling us, Christ shall come again at once according to Heb. 10:28 - "the second time".

Heb 10:27-28 (KJV1611 Edition):
But a certaine fearefull looking for of iudgement,
and fiery indignation, which shall deuoure the aduersaries.
28 Hee that despised Moses Lawe,
died without mercy, vnder two or three witnesses.


Doesn't talk about a 1,000 year long Messanic Kingdom on earth either.
Doesn't give that you have to be baptized after you get saved.
Doesn't tell every think in every passage, which it looks like
some may expect.

Some ancient confessions said that Jesus
went to Hell while his body was in the grave - when
Jesus arose from the Dead - He was the victor over
death and hell. So when Jesus came from hell to
earth - that was the second part of the first coming of Jesus.
But folks who know that still want to say that the God who
created this universe and the ones nearby it
can only come a Second Time once?

I do know that "iudgement,
and fiery indignation, which shall deuoure the aduersaries"
is talking about the 'Tribulation Period' (AKA: Wrath of God).
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
I agee, BobRyan, but i bet I don't see the same gaps you see:

The gap between too simple & too complex.
I see two defintions of 'rapture' and three of 'resurrection'
and about a dozen definitions of 'day'. If I am clear;
I'm complex. If I am simple I'm misunderstood??

IMHO 'hour' = the appropriate time.

2. the Gap between people who have read my writings
and those who have only pasted & copied them.

3. the other gaps are left as an exercise for the student.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
romans 11 is very specific about saving "individuals" as is all of the Gospel. No "nations" and no "denominations" saved - just individuals. "Though Enoch, Moses, Daniel were in the land they could not even save their own children by their righteous acts".

in Romans 11 "you too fear For if He did not spare them neither will he spare YOU" it is individual salvation that is referenced.

But the biggest problem for PTR is that it needs to insert 2000 year "gaps" into the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 each time it sees some detail mentioned.

49 years (7 weeks) to build the temple?? insert 2000 years in the gap.

7 years (1 week) for the Messiah?? insert another 2000 year gap into the 490 year timeline.

in Christ,

Bob
 

DeafPosttrib

New Member
There is no gap time in Dan. 9:26-27. Verse 26 tells us, Messiah was cut off(crucified) on the 69th week. Verse 27 tells us, Messiah made the covenant with many during 70th week, Christ caused the daily sacrifices ended by Calvary, and the building of temple was destroyed in the midst of the week, that means, Christ already ended daily sacrifices and using high priests for make sacrifice of animals to forgive people's sins often and often - no more. Christ said, "It is finished". The veil of the templ was torn down from top to bottom. It shows that Christ fulfilled it. The building of temple was finished. Christ fulfilled it during on 70th week.

Nothing in Dna. 9:24-27 suggest that there will be future 'seven year of tribulation period'. This passage is discuss about the prophecy of coming Messiah, and calvary, & new covenant. It already fulfilled 490 years later after the book of Daniel was penned.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Dan 9 is recognized by all Bible scholars as the greatest Messianic Bible prophecy in all of the OT! And yet the PTR view wants to so slice and dice it that it contains nothing of anything the Messiah did in his important ministry.

How sad the fact that if you just leave it in tact as we do with the 70 year prophecy of Dan 9:1-3 -- THEN it INCLUDES the Messiah dying for the sins of the world AND stopping all sacrifices and offerings as Heb 10 says he did.

And yet the PTR view is forced to ignore that entirely in that prophecy and to abuse the timeline so that they INSERT 2000 year gaps into it almost at random.

The 49 year starting segment, the 434 middle segment, the 7 year ending segment that is dedicated to the Messiah the annointed one.

In each of these segments (before and after) they argue that we have a good excuse to insert 2000 year gaps of time and then take that 4490 year "result" and innexplicably try to repair it back to 490 year timeline!

in Christ,

Bob
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
DeafPosttrib said:
There is no gap time in Dan. 9:26-27. Verse 26 tells us, Messiah was cut off(crucified) on the 69th week. Verse 27 tells us, Messiah made the covenant with many during 70th week, Christ caused the daily sacrifices ended by Calvary, and the building of temple was destroyed in the midst of the week, that means, Christ already ended daily sacrifices and using high priests for make sacrifice of animals to forgive people's sins often and often - no more. Christ said, "It is finished". The veil of the templ was torn down from top to bottom. It shows that Christ fulfilled it. The building of temple was finished. Christ fulfilled it during on 70th week.

Nothing in Dna. 9:24-27 suggest that there will be future 'seven year of tribulation period'. This passage is discuss about the prophecy of coming Messiah, and calvary, & new covenant. It already fulfilled 490 years later after the book of Daniel was penned.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

GE

I side with you! It's Gospel Truth!
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
DeafPosttrib in post #128 here said:
...

Nothing in Dna. 9:24-27 suggest that there will be future 'seven year of tribulation period'. This passage is discuss about the prophecy of coming Messiah, and calvary, & new covenant. It already fulfilled 490 years later after the book of Daniel was penned.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

This passage (Dan. 9:26-27) is discuss about the prophecy
of coming Messiah, and calvary, & new covenant.
It already fulfilled 490 years later after
the book of Daniel was penned.

The passage Dan. 9:26-27 does speak of Messiah. It speaks
not of anything else you say. The two characters in Dan 9:26-27
are 'Messiah the Princ' (Jesus) and 'The Prince who Shall Come'
(Antichrist in other passages). Unfortunately, the error of your
logical assumption here equates Messiah with Anti-Messiah;
Jesus the Good (Christ) with pure evil (AntiChrist)

Nothing in Dna. 9:24-27 suggest that there will be future 'seven year of tribulation period'.

This is correct. However, it does speak of
'one seven' or 'one week' which is seven years.
I logically assume that the Tribulation Period is
the Seven Year long (70th week of Daniel) and
don't end up calling evil good in error here in Daniel 9:26-27.

There are 7 passages in Daniel & Revelation that that
speak of the two halfs of the 70th week of Daniel.

Even Messiah Jesus spake of what it says in Daniel 9:26-27.
Here is what Messiah Jesus said answering the Disciples
Question " ... and what shall be the signe of thy coming? ... "
(Matthew 24:3b, KJV1611 Edition)

Matthew 24:15-21 (KJV1611 Edition):
When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place,

(who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
17 Let him which is on the house top,
not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field,
returne backe to take his clothes.
19 And wòe vnto them that are with child,
and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
20 But pray yee that your flight bee not
in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For
then shall be great tribulation,
such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.


Note Jesus does not say:

// When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation,
spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, STOOD UP BY ME
in the holy place, ... //

I think if Jesus (the Messiah) was going to commit the
abomination of desolation (AoD) that He would have
told us. Both 'adomination' and 'desolation' have
negative connotations of evil not postitive connotations
of good. I just can't see Messiah Jesus who is the very
essence of God committing an abomonination :(

Sorry 'Prince Messiah' and 'the Prince who will come'
who does the Abomination shall be two different people.
Making this wrong logical assumption means that nearly all
the logic following is also wrong (though some of could
accidentally be correct).

I know that some people will make bad assumptions like
this then deny them blaming God by using:

//That why, I stick with Early Church fathers' teachings,
and also, follow what the Bible saying than
what today's men's teaching Col. 2:8).//

Col 2:7-8 (KJV1611 Edition):
Rooted and built vp in him, and stablished in the faith,
as yee haue bene taught, abounding therein with thankesgiuing.
8 Beware lest any man spoile you through
Philosophie and vaine deceit, after the tradition
of men
, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ:

I know you were taught the truth by your early mentors:
pretribulation rapture2 -- why didn't you stay
faithful?
The error logical assumption (false axiom) that Jesus
commits the AoD (abomination of Desolation) is one
of the vain deceit philosophies that lead to the error
of 'post-trib resurrection2 only' and a-mill.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Ed Edwards said:
I
3. the other gaps are left as an exercise for the student.

hmmm - that sounds familiar:applause: Me against me?:laugh:

have no fear - -I am the me-est Me I ever knew!
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Being you is good. If you were me - one of us would be redundant :praying:

If I were you -- one of us would be redundant :saint:

:godisgood:
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: There is a world of difference between calling the ‘last half of the tribulation period the ‘wrath of God’ and just calling the tribulation period as a whole the wrath of God. To take a verse that says that God’s children are not appointed to wrath, and extrapolate that to suggest that a pre-tribulational rapture must in fact be the case, is simply unfounded conjecture.

GE

And so say I
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Active Member
Site Supporter
Reformation-Faith, Protestant Faith, 'Reformed Faith', has always had it, Christ shall come again and in that only and last day, shall be the resurrection of all the dead and the changing of the living saved, so that it will be the same day the first day of the New Heavens and New Earth, and the last of sin and death. Come Lord Jesus. We have no prayer besides!
 

jilphn1022

New Member
And that is exactly what the Bible teaches

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Reformation-Faith, Protestant Faith, 'Reformed Faith', has always had it, Christ shall come again and in that only and last day, shall be the resurrection of all the dead and the changing of the living saved, so that it will be the same day the first day of the New Heavens and New Earth, and the last of sin and death. Come Lord Jesus. We have no prayer besides!


This is based on good authority! The only authority to truly trust is the Bible! Amen!
 

Ed Edwards

<img src=/Ed.gif>
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Reformation-Faith, Protestant Faith, 'Reformed Faith', has always had it, Christ shall come again and in that only and last day, shall be the resurrection of all the dead and the changing of the living saved, so that it will be the same day the first day of the New Heavens and New Earth, and the last of sin and death.

Amen, Brother Gerhard Ebersoehn -- NOT.
If that was true, one would have to give whole new
meanings to 'day', 'hour', 'and', 'first', 'last', 'one', and 'only.
Or one could just add a lot to what the Reformation folk
said and meant, what the Protestant Faith says and means,
what the Reformed Faith says and means - what the New
Testament Bible says and means.

Ed's writing on Dispestation & God's Economy:
The parts that are bolded (but not scripute)
relate to the discussion above.
------------------------------------------------------------

Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God
which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time


Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first

Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!

Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Come Lord Jesus. We have no prayer besides!


Amen, Brother Gerhard Ebersoehn -- Preach it!
 
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