#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

[Ed Edwards]

//Romans 11 contains no timeline at all. It predicts
future events without actually providing any timeline at all - //

I see no reason why the events of Romans 11
cannot be set beside the later part of Daniel 9.
They add a lot to both prohecies if
considered in the future tense to even us.

 

[BobRyan]

Certainly you may want to insert them there - but the foundation of the discussion has to be Bible facts not preferences. I may have many preferences of where to insert various ideas -- the key is to get to hard and fast Bible facts first then build up our preferences.

It is important to distinguish between the two or else the whole thing melts down into "I prefer this and you prefer that".

 

[Ed Edwards]

I'm talking the Baptist Doctrines of

Priesthood of the Believer
Compentency of the Believer

Combined they say:
I have to do it for myself under the
leadership of the Holy Spirit answerable
to GOD alone.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Post #80:
BobRyan:
you need to tell where you got that
(unless you wrote it yourself).
Thank you.

See this page:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=10749

Small quotes like you made can be used, if you
cite where they can be found
(WWW site prefered to Book quotes /and you don't
have to type the words of the citation / )

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: your post #50 needs this citation:

http://www.demonbuster.com/rapture.html

(unless you got it elsewhere)

needless to say, that information though fancyful
revisionism - just won't fly


http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=10749

 

[Eliyahu]

I'm eternally serious, but thanks anyway.

The Bible says //"FIRST" Resurrection just before the 1000 years in Re 20:4-6//

because the FIRST Resurrection is completed in Revelation 20:4.

There is one FIRST Resurrection composed of two parts:
1A. the pre-tribualtion rapture1
1B. the postribulation resurrection2

There is one FIRST Resurrection on one day:
(that day is 7-years long and called the Tribulation
Period /Trib/, 70th Week of Daniel):
1A. the pre-tribualtion rapture1 - at the start of the Trib
1B. the postribulation resurrection2 -at the end of the Trib

The multiple phase FIRST Resurrection is a type of
resurrection - the resurrection of the just.

....

How would you compromise yours with 1 Thess 4:15- ?

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Your order is contrary to the Biblical order.

Do you still believe that the Fornicators can be the Judges to rule over the Believers?

 

[Ed Edwards]

How would you compromise yours with 1 Thess 4:15- ?

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Your order is contrary to the Biblical order.

Show how your scripture shows my order to be incorrect.
To do that you have to understand what order
this scripture (1 Thess 4:15-17) shows is the order.
To do that you have to understand what order
I said I believe things go in. I haven't gotten to
it yet (five questioners, you know) but
1 Thessalonians 4:14 to 1 Thessalonians 5:11
(and the rest of chapter 5 shows what you are to
do about the pretribulation rapture2) is the most
pretribulation rapture2 of the whole Bible. In fact,
the word 'rapture' comes from the Latin version
of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 'caught up'.

Do you still believe that the Fornicators
can be the Judges to rule over the Believers?

This question is so stupid I'm ignoring it.
This question shows you don't understand the scripture
nor are you even trying to understand what I'm talking
about. I do not believe unforgiven fornicators
will Judge anybody aright. I do believe there will be
some ex-fornicators who are some day judges.
Though perchance some ex-fornicators will keep records
in heaven during the physical/literal Messanic Kingdom
on Earth. BTW, I'm not a fornicator (I have some other
juicy pork sins, but I'm no fornicator). I have had two
wives, but never two wives at the same time alive
on earth.

 

[BobRyan]

Post #80:
BobRyan:
you need to tell where you got that
(unless you wrote it yourself).
Thank you.

Did a google search -- found this --


http://www.demonbuster.com/rapture.html

 

[BobRyan]

needless to say, that information though fancyful
revisionism - just won't fly

I am happy to read any factual correction that you may have to the data.

you mentioned the 3.5 year idea of Catholics without any reference to any sources at all -- given that comment I simply pointed out a single example of the path and history for the pre-trib rapture. (And there are many more such sourced references to that same history). But my argument has never been that the PTR is wrong because of the RCC sources involved in its history. My argument on these threads has always been from scripture alone.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I'm talking the Baptist Doctrines of

Priesthood of the Believer
Compentency of the Believer

Combined they say:
I have to do it for myself under the
leadership of the Holy Spirit answerable
to GOD alone.

I am not arguing against the priesthood of the Believer. I too believe that from 1John 2.

My point is that simply "listing preferences" and nothing more (such as saying that you prefer to insert Romans 11 information into Dan 9's 490 prophecy about the Messiah) melts down to a "I prefer x and you prefer Y" discussion very quickly.

My point is that there is an even greater more substantive level of exchange if we go to well researched Bible fact and distinguish clearly between that and "simple preferences".

Admittedly each of us could have different Bible facts that we would like to highlight and certainly everyone has their own set of preferences.

The question is how much actual Bible fact can we uncover bedhind each doctrinal POV or are some of the points of view nothing more than a long string of preferences and inserts?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Does the word " gather together" (episunago)
in 2 Thess 2:1 mean the Rapture?//

IMHO - yes

IMHO the (episunago) in Matthew 24:31
means the rapture2 also.

IMHO the following examples of the Coming of Jesus
in power; (resurrection 2) terminology is bolded, the
gathering of God's Church Age saints (rapture2)
is underlined.
The seperating AND (Greek 'Kai') is writ red
and large.

Mat 24:30-31 (KJV1611 Edition):
And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man
in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of
the earth mourne, and they shall see
the Sonne of man coming in the clouds of heauen,
with power and great glory.
31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect
from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.

2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, and by our gathering together vnto him,

In both cases, the resurrection2 and the rapture2
(with variant descriptures) are described and joined
by an AND meaning two seperate sets of events.
The two events are both mentioned in other scirptures.
I'll be writing this up as time permits
(Monday is shot with Dental & Mental doctors).

 

[Eliyahu]

This question is so stupid I'm ignoring it.
This question shows you don't understand the scripture
nor are you even trying to understand what I'm talking
about. I do not believe unforgiven fornicators
will Judge anybody aright. I do believe there will be
some ex-fornicators who are some day judges.
Though perchance some ex-fornicators will keep records
in heaven during the physical/literal Messanic Kingdom
on Earth. BTW, I'm not a fornicator (I have some other
juicy pork sins, but I'm no fornicator). I have had two
wives, but never two wives at the same time alive
on earth.

There are many Intelligent and Wise Believers on this board who would condemn even Jesus Christ as a stupid Fool if He comes here today quietly without informing His ID for Himself.
Jesus said this :

Mt 11
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

I am very much glad that I am condemned as a stupid questioner by the wisest man that I have ever heard, Sir.

Holy Spirit also taught us this thru Apostle Paul :

1 Cor 1
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I will still be very much glad to learn the profound and eloquent explanation from the wisest, most excellent teacher in the Eschatology like you, Sir

1. You may have not realized the contradiction between your order and the Biblical order of the Resurrection.

You said, the Rapture will take place first, then the Dead will be resurrected ( check your own), then the Bible said, the alive shall not prevent the believers who fell asleep in Jesus.( 1 Thess 4:15-17). If the living people meet Jesus earlier than the dead, it contradicts 1 Thess 4:15-17, Sir.


2. Another question was the Resurrection of the following people.

1) Robber at the Cross who went to Paradise
2) The Fornicator who committed the fornication with his step mother in 1 Cor 5:5
3) A plain believer who believed in Jesus and was born again, but lived a plain life and died the plain death in 17 century AD.

I asked you which group the above mentioned people will belong to when they are resurrected, with a view to the Revelation 20:4-6, as Re 20:4 categorizes the Believers participating in the New Millennium into 3 groups
1) Judges, 2) Martyrs, 3) Anti-Beast and Anti Harlot Believers

Re 20
4 And I saw thrones; and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them; and the souls of those beheaded on account of the testimony of Jesus, and on account of the word of God; and those who had not done homage to the beast nor to his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and hand; and they lived and reigned with the Christ a thousand years: 5 the rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed. This [is] the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy he who has part in the first resurrection: over these the second death has no power; but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


You said before the Fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5 will be the Judge. Do you still believe so?
Do you still believe all 3 above will become the Judges?


In your theology, everyone must pursue becoming the Fornicator like the one in 1 Cor 5:5 because the Judges in the New Millennium will be highly esteemed.
One can hardly deny that the Judges in Re 20:4 will be more important than the Martyrs and Anti-Beast Believers. Judges will be very important and therefore every believer may better yearn for becoming the Judges in the New Millennium.
The Plain believers must be the absolute majority of the Believers while the Martyrs are not many but much fewer than the plain believers. Anti-Beast Believers will be many.

In your theology, there will be millions, millions of Judges in the New Millennium as the plain believers are so many and you claim the plain believers will become the Judges.

Is this the layout of the New Millennium according to your Eschatology?

 

[BobRyan]

Still I am amazed that the post-trib only view is doing so well in the poll. I thought that Bible truth had been buried long ago.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

bob: // My point is that simply "listing preferences" and nothing
more (such as saying that you prefer to insert
Romans 11 information into Dan 9's 490 prophecy
about the Messiah) melts down to a "I prefer x
and you prefer Y" discussion very quickly.//

You don't appear to follow my LOGIC statements.
Tell me you had logic somewhere in school taught
by a competent teacher. How much logic do I have to
teach you? My logic seems to confuse those who
(due to USofA and Canada inadequate Maths teachings
in public schools - private schools are even worse).

My wording 'prefer' is not toally what I was doing.
Usually I have reason to teach that Roman 11
is the subject matter of what Daniel 9's timeline
is talking about.

Another example is that the 'mysteries' of the
New Testament are all keys to combining other
doctrines to my Eschatological doctrines.
I still haven't had a chance 17 years of trying
to get all the 'mystery' doctrines and defining
Eschatological terms from them. -- I spend my
time trying to explain to some people their questions
(more often a debating technique than a serious attempt
to understand what God has taught me
which makes others think they will never understand me).

Ah well, maybe the Lord will tarry awhile?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Still I am amazed that the post-trib only view is doing so well in the poll. I thought that Bible truth had been buried long ago.

in Christ,

Bob

I thought that would happen, there are half a dozen
vocal post-trib onlys (from both the a-mill and pre-mill
types) on BB. My pastor tells me that Southwestern
Seminary in Fort Worth back in the 1960s taught mostly
a-mil post-trib-only. But now I suspect they have
gone the way of Texas Baptists and no longer pump out
SBCs-only.

Check my OSAS/x-trib poll and I think a lot more than half
(maybe 60%) will be:
OSAS + pretrib OR
no-OSAS + post-trib.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes - I voted there -- but Why the link between Trib and OSAS?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother Eliyahu:
You are getting your partial rapture2 confused with my
Eschatology which is every saved person in the
world (including all the Messanic Jews) will be
raptured1 or resurrected1 in the rapture2.
The two don't fit together.

Chapter 7 of Revelation takes place in HEAVEN
just after the rapture2. There are no saved
persons on earth (the 'restrainer').
However, 144,000 Messanic Jews are sealed
and sent to earth to minister mostly to lost
Jews. The Tribulation Period is all about God's
plan to save a lot of Jews.

Some of my Messanic Jewish friends believe that
when every gentile who IS GOING TO BE SAVED
is saved, then the rapture2 will come.
Gentiles can be saved in the Tribulation Period
but the latter parts of Rev 9 suggest they won't
be saved. However MILLIONS of Jews will be saved,
manly at mid-trib when the Antichrist finishes
the temple the Antichrist had built and declares
himself God. Jews will then see Jesus as Messiah
and believe and be saved.

Becasue the 144,000 are rewarded with service on
earth during the Tribualtion Period, I think others
will be rewarded to sit on thrones and judge.
But there will at least 5 times as many
as 200,000,000 mostly gentile Church Age
chosen elect saints around the throne.
Those Billion (1,000,000,000) + saints
are going to judge 18,000,000 Jews (if the
Tribulation starts now)?
That would be 50 judges per Jew.
The Jews are sometimes stifnecked -
but not that bad. No I don't think every
Church Age Saint will be judged by a Church
Age gentile. In fact, I suspect that Jews would
be better off if another Jew (a Messanic Jew) would
judge them.

So I don't think that fornicating gentiles will be judging
in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom. Read the description
of the 144,000 - they are sexually pure.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yes - I voted there -- but Why the link between Trib and OSAS?

Because I think that no-OSAS resurrection2 post-trib
lays a burden on people that is more than God is
going to put on them.
But you don't want my thoughts, just what
I can prove from the Scriptue faster than folks
can make up petty objections to what I teach.

Oh well, the Baptist Pastor who taught me
(in the late 1960s) how to
relate the requiements for Bishops & Deacons
to Eschatology (5 resurrections, 5 Judgements,
5 Tribulations) said I'd have problems
if I taught the truth:

The correct Eschatology is derived from the other
Correct Doctrines.

If you can't get from the other Doctrines to Eschatology
you aren't qualified to teach Eschatology.
Like many Baptists are pan-trib rapture and
pan-mill Second Coming - trust Jesus and everything
will pan out alright.

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Cor 1
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe?
where is the disputer of this world?
hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God
the world by wisdom knew not God,
it pleased God by the foolishness
of preaching to save them that believe.

It is illogical to believe because of what
1 Cor 1:19-21 says that if one is
called foolish that somehow one
is more holy. The wisdom of God is
just totally NOT comparable to to
the wisdom of men NOR to the stupidity
of men.

I'll show you what the Holy Spirit taught me
from the Bible (and a few other select
places, like history books) about
Eschatology. Feel free to (in fact, one is
required of God to - figure out their
own Eschatology with Fear and Trembling.

//In your theology, everyone must pursue becoming
the Fornicator like the one in 1 Cor 5:5 because
the Judges in the New Millennium will be highly esteemed.//

This in NO WAY can be determined from what
I said. What is said is logical and Biblical -
what you say is JUMPING TO A CONCLUSION -
a wrong conclusion I might add.
Jumping to false conclulsions is NOT a good work.

//You said before the Fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5
will be the Judge. Do you still believe so?//

I don't recall the exact words I used.
I said Fornicators don't go to Heaven like
the Bible says. But there will be ex-fornicators
there. When God forgives you on Behalf of
Jesus - that is erased. Drunks are sober, if
their drinking sin is covered by the Blood of Jesus.
Fornicators forgiven by God are ex-fornicators.

So yes, that Fornicator in 1 Cor 5:5 might be
a judge in the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
I cannot make that call - my pay grade is way
below that. I doubt that the fornicator will be
give that reward, however. Maybe they will
get a martyr's crown, if they were killed for
Jesus. But it isn't dead certain.

//In your theology, everyone must pursue
becoming the Fornicator like the one
in 1 Cor 5:5 because the Judges
in the New Millennium will be highly esteemed.//

That is to stupid for words.
If I really said something that makes you believe
that, I'll claim:

I've been typing for 14 hours straight
(Though I admit I watched Oklahoma beat
Iowa State in College Football) - can
I really type that long without making
a mistake or two?
Come on, cut me some slack, eh?
I have no reason to advocate fornication;
I did not advocate fornication, it is a sin.
We should encourage each other NOT to
sin; it is a good work to encourage each
other not to sin. I encourage everyone
to do good works to one another, praying
constantly for one another. Do you know I
pray for BobRyan every day - cause I talk
to him nearly every day on this BB?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

John. 5:28; John 6:39,40,44, & 54 telling us very clear the resurrection shall come on the LAST DAY of this present age at the coming of Christ. There is not a single verse gives us a hint that there are gap of time-span like 7 years or 1000 years between two resurrection anywhere in the Bible.

Also, "the first resurrection" is apply to the saved people only, who believe in Christ have eternal life. "The first resurrection" pictured speaks of salvation -"have eternal life" in Christ.

Also, these people who do not have the part of 'first resurrection', because they do not believe in Christ. What happen to them? They shall have their part of 'second death'.

'Second death' is speak of everlasting punishment from God in lake oof fire, because they do not believe in Christ.

That what Revelation 20:4-6 is all talk about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

GE
Amen, brother DeafPostTrib, Amen!
And let us not get wearied to answer each time these Pre-Tribs blurr the Word with the simple press of a button!

You refer to John 6. How clearly both the First Resurrection and the resurrrection "at the last day (39c) are shown in there: "And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that everyone which seeth the Son (This The First Resurrection) and believeth on Him (This The First Resurrection), may have everlasting Life (This The First Resurrection): And I will raise him up at the last day" at the Coming of Christ, the only Coming Again of the Lord in all eternity!