#2 The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (PRT)

[Ed Edwards]

Post-Trib only is doing surprisingly well here. I am actually shocked by that.

Has to do with and escalogical discussion being popular
with both the a-mill post-tribs and the pre-mill post-tribs.
So we have two groups of post-tribs that usually don't
even talk together. Bad poll on my part. I'll spice up
#3 when we get there

 

[Ed Edwards]

Early Tribulation Writing:

(previously writ)

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV1611):
And they cried with a lowd voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not iudge and
auenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were giuen vnto euery one
of them, and it was sayd vnto them, that they
should rest yet for a little season, vntill
their fellow seruants also, and their brethren
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
those dayes shall be shortned.

These are parallel passages.
Both show early in the tribulation day
those born-again, mostly gentile, church age,
Christian elect saints who were raptured/resurrected
at the dawn of the tribulation day. They are talking
to Jesus (praying face-to-face) about the Jewish
Israeli elect saints who won't pray to God.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Would not the act of baptism be considered the "first" resurrection of any person of the Christian faith? (Romans 6:3-5): "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life." For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his "RESURRECTION".

Makes sense if one is
an Idealist (the prophecies of the Bible are to be discerned spiritually)
an a-mill (there is a spiritual Millinnial Messanic Kingdom /no physical/)
and an a-trib (tribulation & rapture pertains to individuals, not groups).

But I don't recall that any of my CoC friends bought
into that. I took a 2-credit-hour College Course
on Paul /public College/ taught by a CoC Preacher.
I've sit in lots of folding chairs & watched CoC
Preacher's overhead projections
in the east central part of Oklahoma, the
south central part of Oklahoma (a guy I graduated with
from High School was the pastor), and
in the Seattle area. Come to think of it, I'm not sure
much Eschatology was taught?

 

[Ed Edwards]

[quotae=BobRyan
Depends on how much license you are interested
in taking with the text of Rev 20:4-5 where we
are told that those who are brought to life
have ALREADY given their life for Christ
and
that this happens after the Rev 19 event
of the appearing of Christ.
[/quote]

I really don't know if 'this' (bolded) pertains
to "those who are brought to life"
or to "have ALREADY given their life for Christ".

In any case, wouldn't it just be easier to say the
following instead of complicating everything?

"I, BobRyan, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
related two names for the same group of people."


Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.

(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?

*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's

All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).

You can quote me as saying:

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.

 

[BobRyan]

Ed - I am more than happy to quote you as saying that Rev 20:4-5 is describing "Rapture 2 and Resurrection 2"

"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."

The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1115186&postcount=44

By contrast - I "Bob believe FIRST resurrection speaks to resurrection1" not "resurrection2"

And there we have our difference as clearly contrasted as I can get it.

It is left as an exercise for the unbiased objective reader to read the text for themselves and decide.

Revelation 20


4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to lifeand reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

But I have to ask the following questions -

1. Do all agree that the one and only place the term "first resurrection" is used in all of scripture is Rev 20:4-5? Yes?

2. Do all agree that to get "first resurrection" to mean "resurrection2" you have to do it in spite of the language in the text saying "first resurrection"?? Basically have have to come to the text already 'wanting' to read "SECOND resurrection" to fit "resurrection2", then upon finding that it is not there -- you have to "settle" for making some kind of convoluted argument that "First Resurrection" is some kind of Bible proven way to really say "resurrection2".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

// By contrast - I "Bob believe FIRST resurrection
speaks to resurrection1" not "resurrection2"//

Actually, you do.
Obviously you read the definitions before you made
statements using them.

Recall though, that FIRST can but doesn't always have
to do with one.

// And there we have our difference as clearly
contrasted as I can get it.//

Thank you for joining me in being exactly
precise. Recall though, that some folk
who are too literal for their own good
-- they won't let metaphors be metaphors
or similies be similies.


Work in process:

------------------------------------------

Five Bible 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2
​

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)

The first resurrection conists of these two events:

rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(many pre-mill, post-tribs deny a 'rapture2' exists
but think a 'rapture1 exists).
(this I frequently call 'a rapture/resurrection
in my old writings)

resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(this I call generally this in my old writings:
the 'Second Coming of Jesus
in power & Glory, or just 'Second Advent', etc.)

rapture1 - an event held by Jesus where the living saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.

resurrection1 - an event held by Jesus where dead saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.

1. Matthew 24:3
Mat 24:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues,
the Disciples came vnto him priuately,
saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be?
And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
AND (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
-------------------------------------
To be completed:

2. Matthew 24:29-31
3. 2 Thess 2:1
4. Titus 2:13
5. Revelation 20:4

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
1. Do all agree that the one and only place
the term "first resurrection" is used in all
of scripture is Rev 20:4-5? Yes?
...

No 'first resurrection' appears in Revelation 20:6

So just change a 5 in your statement to 6 and
you have it. What 'first' means is the subject of
discussion.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

No 'first resurrection' appears in Revelation 20:6

So just change a 5 in your statement to 6 and
you have it. What 'first' means is the subject of
discussion.

I think you made a mistake somehow. "The First Resurrection" is in fact mentioned in Rv20:6. The First Resurrection is also very clearly defined and explained in verse 6, yes, by verse 6 and the whole of it - verse 6, is, The First Resurrection. Maybe it is faith that causes one to see it. I don't know what would make one see it as something else.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I think you made a mistake somehow. "The First Resurrection" is in fact mentioned in Rv20:6. The First Resurrection is also very clearly defined and explained in verse 6, yes, by verse 6 and the whole of it - verse 6, is, The First Resurrection. Maybe it is faith that causes one to see it. I don't know what would make one see it as something else.

I'm not going to pick sides here, Revelation is tough enough to read on its own, muchless to try and interpret.

But just out of curiousity GE, what makes you think that you have more faith than Ed, therefore you see the truth more clearly?

ICXC NIKA
-

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I'm not going to pick sides here, Revelation is tough enough to read on its own, muchless to try and interpret.

But just out of curiousity GE, what makes you think that you have more faith than Ed, therefore you see the truth more clearly?

ICXC NIKA
-

GE

Let us hear if Ed thinks I think I have more faith than he has, Ed?
I can't help smiling ...

And yes, Rv is tough the tougher you make it. The plainer you make it the easier it gets 'to interpret'. Golden rule: It is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ". I always ask myself the question (this now is for my own profit, I'm not preaching - you can do what you like with this bit of 'advice'.) I always ask myself the question, Have I now really found Jesus in this text through my interpretation? Or Have I now really found Jesus in the interpretation (of another) I have been studying? If I could honestly say, yes, and easily, and inevitably, and exclusively, Bingo! It's the right interpretation! Second question: Do I notice a political flavour in what I have been trying out as an interpretation -- something humanistic, philosophic, speculative, scientific? Trash bin!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"... what makes you think that you have more faith than Ed, therefore you see the truth more clearly?"

GE
Let's leave the first clause, and consider the next only, What would make me think that I see the truth more clearly? Only what would make anyone see the truth more clearly - Look man, look, and read, literally. Read verse 6 -- it -not I- tells you the truth what The First Resurrection is. It's no use I try tell you other things than the thing itself. Verse 6 tells you, and the verses before it, and after it. Just read, and forget everything else.

Now I am not ashamed to say I see the truth clearly of what The First Resurrection is - better than anyone else who does not see and read it literally from verse 6 itself. Would you be ashamed to say you understand it better than anyone for just reading the Word while others don't?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Gerhard Ebersoehn speaking of Revelation chapter 20:
//Read verse 6 -- it -not I- tells you the truth
what The First Resurrection is. It's no use
I try tell you other things than the thing itself.
Verse 6 tells you, and the verses before it,
and after it. Just read, and forget everything else.//

Sorry, I've read the whole rest of the Bible dozens of
times, some places hundreds. I am NOT likely
to forget what I read -- I should remember the
scriptures I read before -- the scriptures I read
before illuminate the one I'm reading now.

I look up 'protos' (usuallyl 'first' ) in the ancient Greek/modern
English Dictionary - I find NO mention of the
concept 'one and only one' or even 'one'.
I look up 'first" in the today's English dictioinary
and the concept 'one and only one' is NOT
associated with all the meetings.

The phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION'
in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude
there from being more than one general
resurreciton of the saints.

Here is an evangelistic message about Five Resurrections:
Note the differences that distinguish each.
Feel free to write an evangelistic message
about your favorite dash-Tribulation/Rapture
arrangement and post it here.

----------------------------------

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/
​

Five Resurrections:
​

(last revised 6 Oct 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1991)
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 or #4 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (KJV1769 Edition): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.

1. Resurrection of Jesus
​

WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8

2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
​

WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament
Saints (mostly Gentiles)
​

WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 6 Oct 2007;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
​

WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
​

WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
this is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection(because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed EdwardsThe phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION'
in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude
there from being more than one general
resurreciton of the saints."

GE
Dear Ed, You gave us a lot of dictionaries stuff, but you said you read the Bible and you don't forget what you read likely. I understand you have not forgotten, because you could not have remembered seeing there is nowhere else in all of Scripture mention made of 'first resurrection' to remember! So that is two aspects of your argumentation down.

Now what you have said, "The phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION' in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude there from being more than one general resurrection of the saints." Does it pre-imply or in advance prove there are more than one 'general resurrection'? The two 'phrases' are separate ones - the one not even a phrae from the Bible, and of totally different nature. So 'general resurrection' cannot presuppose or imply or take for granted, "The First Resurrection". How then can "The First Resurrection" 'preclude the general resurrection, and then, not only the one 'general resurrection, but sommer two of them? To 'preclude' in this instance is as illegitimate as to take for granted.

But while we are at it, let us hear the Word, what it, declares - not 'preclude' or 'presuppose' or 'take for granted - but what it says: "The rest of the dead lived not again until were finished: The Thousand Years This The First Resurrection: Blessed and holy: he that hath Part In The First Resurrection: on Such (as) the second death has no power-but-shall be priests of God and Christ and shall reign with Him Thousand Years." There is the definition of the Word of God of "The First Resurrection-Thousand Years"!

Now you can multiply your 'Two resurrections' ad infinitum - they cannot imply "This The First Resurrection". Keep in mind too, that for each of your 'Resurrections', you oblige God to work yet another Coming of Christ, and yet another 'Hear (of) the Voice of the Son of Man', and at each resurrection, a second last and a third last and a fourth last and a fifth last Trump; and at each resurrection a second last and a third last and a fourth last and a fifth last Day of Christ's coming. It seems to me every time you read your whole Bible, you skip Rv20:5-6, and every time add another resurrection. FOR ONE REASON: to accommodate your time-setting! And time-setting hundreds of times has proven its genius', fools! Sequence-setting is time-setting; there's no difference.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards
"The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust."

GE
Unfortunately a miss is as good as a mile. Despite, here you have almost seen the light. It works out like this: The following Scriptures undoubtedly mention the simultaneous resurrection of all the just and all the wicked dead: all resurrected bodily and together in the same hour, "UNTO": either, "the resurrection OF LIFE"; or, "UNTO the resurrection OF damnation": John 5:28-29, Mt13, Mt25 Lk22 etc.

1Thess4 deals with the righteous only but definitely does not, 'preclude' the resurrection of the wicked.

Jn5:21-25 and Rv20:4-6 deal with The First Resurrection spiritually in the only era of Grace

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards
"CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation."

GE
You have created a lot of trouble for yourself. Just accept the fact the same thing may be spoken of in the Bible many times and in many - even in as many - ways. Jesus used symbolism; John did; Paul did. More often than not. But it is the same thing, the only Coming Again of our Lord! Please come to rest; come to Jesus, He gives us rest. We may leave in His hands the future. Only thing He wanted us to know - for sure to know - is that He is coming again. One Day; one resurrection; One Lord; one power exercised / energised -- like when God first raised Christ from the dead. End of death; end of sin; end of dispensation; beginning of the New Earth and the New Heavens. I have today read Milton's Paradise Lost - not exactly everything I must say. But how beatiful! How austere. How strong in the faith. How inspiring. How reassuring. Read the oldies and discover your Bible as if the first time! Those saints were favourites of God if not inspired of God.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Gerhard Ebersoehn:
//Now what you have said, "The phrase 'FIRST RESURRECTION'
in Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude there
from being more than one general resurrection
of the saints." Does it pre-imply or in advance
proof there are more than one 'general resurrection'.//

No, more than one general resurrection is NOT implied
aby "Revelation 20:5-6 does not preclude there from being more than one general resurrection of the saints".

However, note TWO groups of saved people in
Revelation 20:4 which DOES imply more than
one general resurrection.
(if one choosed to select that 'and' in Rev 20:4
implies two names for the same set of saints,
then one will get different results).

Gehard Ebersoehn:
//FOR ONE REASON: to accommodate your
time-setting! And time-setting hundreds of times
has proven its geniusus fools!//

Nope, I do NOT time set.
However, the Bible does specify things that happen
in two each 3½-year long halves of the 70Th
week (7-years) of Daniel. So the Bible sets
a time-line up from the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
to the post-tribulation Coming of Jesus in Power and
Glory. But I can't tell you the date of the pretribuation
rapture/resurrect - the flawed time setting.
The Bible is very clear on what happens the
7 years after the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
happens. That is in the Bible - and it isn't time setting.
The pretribulation rapture/resurrection happens at
a signless time and unknown time and comes
AS a theif in the night (you don't know when it
coming). The first part of 1 Thessalonians 5
tells about the pretribulation rapture coming as
a thief in the night - that is a literal similie figure
of speach (the 'as' is the clue).

BTW, I only followed where the Holy Spirit
lead me in what the Bible says mostly
(and some of what
history says and what Science says, etc.)

[spelling corrections - but not all]

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards
"References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8"

GE
I have read as you said. But I cannot find any "references" in these texts to Jesus resurrection? Am I wrong admitting I did find inferences, but not 'references' in the sense of mention of the event of Jesus' resurrection?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Gerhard Ebersoehn:
// ... that He is coming again. One Day; one resurrection; One Lord; one power exercised / energised -- like when God first raised Christ from the dead.//

The scripture varies in oneness from what you say:

Eph 4:4-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
There is one body, and one spirit, euen
as yee are called in one hope of your calling.
5 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme,
6 One God and Father of all, who is aboue all,
& through all, & in you all.

So "He is coming again" is correct.
One Day - not verified by Ephesians 4:4-6
(Though I agree - one day = one week = 7 years)
one resurrection - not verified by Ephesians 4:4-6
One Lord - verified by Ephesians 4:4-6
one power exercised/energised -- ALL who
follow Messiah Jesus receive His saving Power

As I say, read all the Scripture -- it all fits
together without contradiction.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed Edwards
"References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8"

GE
I have read as you said. But I cannot find any "references" in these texts to Jesus resurrection? Am I wrong admitting I did find inferences, but not 'references' in the sense of mention of the event of Jesus' resurrection?

Different terms are used for Different things.
God being the author of the Bible uses the different
terms for the most important things.

For example our personal salvation has many terms:

saved - exempt from the penalty of sin: death (the second death)
redeemed - bought back by God
adopted into the family of God
born into the familyh of God
become Join heirs with Christ
called
elected
(that is off the top of my head).

Mat 28:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
He is not here: for he is risen,
as hee said: Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

This is a good definition of a resurrection:
Jesus isn't in the tomb - he is RISEN.

Mar 16:6 (KJV1611 Edition):
And hee sayth vnto them, Be not affrighted;
ye seeke Iesus of Nazareth, which was crucified:
he is risen, hee is not here:
behold the place where they laide him.

The Resurrection of Jesus is what allows us to
be resurrected. This is what resurrection is about:
not in the grave - RISEN!

Luk 24:6-8 (KJV1611 Edition):
He is not heere, but is risen:
Remember how he spake vnto you
when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Sonne of man must be deliuered
into the hands of sinfull men, and be crucified,
and the third day rise againe.
8 And they remembred his words,

'rise again' = resurrected

These verses are about the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

EE
"(if one choosed to select that 'and' in Rev 20:4 implies two names for the same set of saints, then one will get different results)."

GE
Yes, if one chose. But who gave us permission to choose and make a difference between things which does not exist between them?