2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
-------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Here you show what you "NEED TO FIND" in scripture. YOU NEED to find that the rapture happens before the tribulation.

THEN you bravely tell us what you DO FIND in scripture given in the ORDER that the TEXT HAS!!.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

The time line according to Matthew 24

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15


2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28


3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

Do you "SEE" how you IGNORE the order in the text to do the NUMBERING that the pre-trib rapture NEEDS??

I certainly do!!

So Ed - what is up with that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Bob: I'm cursed with much insight.
I understand perfectly what you say you
believe. I also have the Spiritual Gift
of Discernment - I know what you really believe.

Fine - then If there is some way to BETTER state what I believe - I am open to pointers!

Ed said
I'm serious in my advise (it wouldn't hurt you
and i'm not even asking that you abandon your
eschatology).

Recommendation: Explain your own eschatology
and don't speak of mine.

I thought I did that.


Let me make is simple using the same example of Matt 24 so you see it in the same terms you used and the difference shows up loud and clear.

--------------------------------------

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15


2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28


3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

------------------------

Notice that my numbering follows the same text sequence of Matt 24 instead of being jumbled up?

In Christ,

Bob

[ September 10, 2005, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:3 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached
Him privately and said, "Tell us, when will these things happen?
And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?"

What are the Answers to the questions asked of Jesus?

1. What did Jesus say to "when will these things happen?"
(When will the Temple be destroyed?)

2. What did Jesus say was the sign of His coming?

3. What did Jesus say was the sign of the end of the age?

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //Do you "SEE" how you IGNORE the order in the text
to do the NUMBERING that the pre-trib rapture NEEDS??

//I certainly do!!

//So Ed - what is up with that?//

Yes, i saw that. 'Ignore' does not describe the case.
I gave my reason:

Ed said:
----------------------------------
Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.
----------------------------------

Question, what do you make of 1 Corinthians 13:13?

Why is 'hope' and 'faith' both mentioned if both
are the same thing?

 

[BobRyan]

Hope is the result of faith. Hope is derived from Faith as a consequence of it.

And I think we agree that the sequence given in Matt 24 matches my view - but you have your reasons for not going with that sequence as being the sequence for your view of the end.

In Any case -- it is good to know why in the world you do that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Hope is the result of faith. Hope is derived from Faith as a consequence of it.

Your statement appear to me to
conflict with this scripture:

Heb 11:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now faith is the substance of things hoped
for, the euidence of things not seen.

Faith is some hope with flesh; Faith
is hope that grew up.

 

[BobRyan]

Faith is the substance of things HOPED for... in scripture we SEE the HOPE of eternal life expressed.

But FIRST comes FAITH in Christ and justification. One does not first HOPE for eternal life AND THEN accept Christ.

Rather it is CONVICTION and surrender. Yielding to the Gospel that FIRST opens the door to the HOPE of eternal life in Christ.

Titus 1
1Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,


--

Question - what does this "sequence" have to do with the SEQUENCE God gives in scripture for the end of time (as in MAtt 24)??

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


Rom 5
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

You can't use these verses!

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


Rom 5
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Reason? You ignore them when we discuss justification. Did you not see that the word "justified" in Rom 5:1 is an aorist passive? Justification is an EVENT! Moreover, it is something in which we DO NOT participate!

Something seems foul for you to deny the existence of these verses and then turn around and quote them. Consistency, Bob, is the hallmark of theology.


Did you also miss that the words "we have" access is a Perfect Tense? We have this truth unendingly. This smacks of OSAS! Where is the statement in context that negates this strong truth?


Did you also miss that the words grace in which "we stand" is yet another Perfect Tense? We stand in this grace unendingly. This is yet another OSAS proof. Where is the statement in context that negates this strong truth?


Did you not also notice that these two Perfect Tenses are in the active voice? This happens AFTER justification. This is the only aspect of salvation in which humans can actively participate.

It seems strange to see you use OSAS verses in such a state of ignorance as to what you are saying.

Tenses and voice rule!
Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ascund:
Hey Bob

You can't use these verses!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.


Rom 5
1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;

5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Lloyd "got to use 'em"

Lloyd
Reason? You ignore them

Sorry Lloyd your response has "no basis in fact".

I have never argued against Romans 5.

In fact I have a post for Romans 5 (you know like I do for Romans 2) if you care to see it.

Lloyd said --

when we discuss justification. Did you not see that the word "justified" in Rom 5:1 is an aorist passive? Justification is an EVENT!

You "keep saying that" Like I EVER Said "NO IT IS NOT AN EVENT".

Why do you do that Lloyd? Fantasy of yours?

If you would just deal with the text - and what is actually posted in our discussion... and would not take your own ranting tirades as "me talking" -- I think we could make some headway!

Moreover, it is something in which we DO NOT participate!

You already lost that point when you made yourself ADMIT that the choice of the lost sinner to believe is AN ACTIVE role in faith not a passive one.

Game over Lloyd.

Back to the topic - (The Rapture.)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

If you like this discussion, you will love
the data posted at:

God's Plan for the Ages

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by 1jim:
In Matthew 24, why does Jesus mention false prophets leading many astray twice (24:11 and 24:23-28) just before mentioning the end (24:14 and 24:29-31), unless 24:15-31 does not follow 24:6-14 but parallels it, the first thing of which we should take note not being the wars (24:6-7a) but the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (24:15), the wars (24:6-7a) and the famine (24:7b) and the earthquakes (24:7b) and the martyrdom (24:9-10), all of this (24:6-10) being unprecedented in scope as stated in 24:21-22, this (24:21-22) encompassing what is stated in 24:6-10, after which or even during which the leading astray by false prophets and false christs (24:11 and 24:23-28) occurs before and until the end (24:14 and 24:29-31)? The seven seals in Revelation 6 certainly seem to coincide in sequence with that which is described in Matthew 24:6-14: war (Matthew 24:6-7a and Revelation 6:4) and famine (Matthew 24:7b and Revelation 6:5-6) and martyrdom (Matthew 24:9-10 and Revelation 6:9-11) and the end (Matthew 24:14 / 24:29-31 and Revelation 6:12-16). Just wondering.

Jim

Um - Yes!

Rev 6 Covers the span of time between the first and second coming and so does Matt 24.


I am not sure what you are getting at.

The sequence of Matt 24 is exactly as it is for the end of time and also includes the persectution of the NT saints throughout NT history as does Rev 6.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

--------------------------------------

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15


2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28


3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

------------------------

Notice that my numbering follows the same text sequence of Matt 24 instead of being jumbled up?

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: "Notice that my numbering follows the same text sequence
of Matt 24 instead of being jumbled up?"

Yes, it is in the same order as in Matthew Chapter 24.
However, the Bible has three accounts of the Mount Olivet Discourse.
Feel free to compare Mark 13 and Luke 17. I think you will find you have
to 'jumble' the order

BTW, i compare my order of events in Matthew 24 to the
questions the disciples asked in Matthew 24:3. Also i've got a comparision
to the order of events with 2 Thess 2:1-11 (the subject of this topic)
and to Revelation. Feel free to compare your time line with these other
sources.

-----------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.
------------------------------------
BTW, i note you can have a postrib only
rapture both from a-mill and pre-mill.

The only x-mill that has a pretrib is pre-mill.
Makes me wonder why the post-trib only
pre-mills and the post-trib pre-mills always
gang up on us pre-tribs pre-mills?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: "Notice that my numbering follows the same text sequence
of Matt 24 instead of being jumbled up?"

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:


Yes, it is in the same order as in Matthew Chapter 24.


However, the Bible has three accounts of the Mount Olivet Discourse.
Feel free to compare Mark 13 and Luke 17. I think you will find you have
to 'jumble' the order

Ok --

Mark 13
24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,

25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.

26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

That sequence matches.

What about Luke? It tells you that it is not in order but it also TELLS you what the order should be!! "BUT FIRST the Son of Man must be..."

1. It addresses the false second coming scenarios and explains HOW IT IS that the saints will not be duped. What aspect of the 2nd coming will clue them in.

#2. It describes the unprepared condition of mankind at the end.

#3. It shows sudden and complete destruction at the end.

ALL of this fits perfectly with Matt 24's sequence! But Luke is not giving the same DETAIL level of sequence as Matt or even Mark.

Luke 17
22 And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

23 "They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them.
24 "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.

25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building;
29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Uh, not Mark 13:24-27 but Mark 13:5-36.

IMHO After 13:24-27 in Mark 13:32-37
describes events that happen without prior
warning. The Coming of the Lord at the end
of the Tribulation Period has the whole 7-year
Tribulation Period as a SIGN.

What are the SIGN(s) of the coming Rapture?

 

[BobRyan]

Is it your position that Mark 13:5-23 contradicts 13:24-27?

#1. the Rapture is not stated as a WORD in the NT - we see it in the fact that AT the coming of Christ the saints are gathered up - so the SIGN of Christ's coming is the SIGN of the rapture.

#2. Vs 24-27 SHOWS the tribulation to preceed the 2nd coming JUST as Matt 24 SHOWS.

I don't see anything anywhere else that refutes that.

The text says the Stars fall and the heavens are shaken as SIGNS prior to the appearing of Christ.

Matt 24 confirms that same sequence.

What is not to get?

As you pointed out - I am already in line with the sequence of Matt 24 and apparently Matt 24 is already in line with Mark 13.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: "Is it your position that Mark 13:5-23 contradicts 13:24-27?"

No. No part of the Bible contradictis another
part.

Here are the differences between the
Resurrection event and the Coming
of the Lord to destroy the antichrist
and set up a physical Millennial Kingdom
of Christ:
---------------------------------------------

Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Claudia
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What a waste of band width, out of all that mess you only have one verse on the Rapture. </font>[/QUOTE]If you are talking about a pre-trib rapture it is a stretch to get even one verse.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Claudia
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What a waste of band width, out of all that mess you only have one verse on the Rapture. </font>[/QUOTE]If you are talking about a pre-trib rapture it is a stretch to get even one verse. </font>[/QUOTE]I call your bluff. Unless you provide the
page of the quote, then you have misquoated
Brother Prophecynut. Thank you.
BTW, don't bother to look on pages 9-15 cause
the quote doesn't come from these pages.