2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

Claudia_T:

8. How will Christ's second coming affect the earth itself?


Today's earthquakes are minor in comparison with the massive earthquake at Jesus' coming.
"And there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great." "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found." Revelation 16:18, 20. "I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord." Jeremiah 4:26. "The Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste." "The land shall be utterly emptied." Isaiah 24:1, 3.

Answer: The earth will be seized by a great earthquake at the coming of the Lord. This earthquake will be of such a devastating nature that it will leave the world in a state of total destruction.

YOu say much to agree with, Sister Claudia_T. I studied
each Thursday afternoon for about a year with a SDA paster
back 33 years ago. I've had 30 years since to study in my
area of interest: eschatology.

You probably believe the
post-tribulation only rapture/resurrection
and the pre-millinnial Second Coming of Jesus.
I believe in the pretribualtion rapture and the
post-tribualtion (NOT ONLY) rapture/resurrection
and the pre-millinnial Second COming of Jesus.

You are debating with a person who beleives in
the post-tribulation rapture/resurrection but
is a-millinnial in that there will be a Millinnial Kingdom
of Jesus BUT it is a spiritual thing and you can I
cannot understand it cause we are second class kristians.

Anyway, there are two different earthquakes that are spoken of
in Revelation.

1. Revelation 6:12-17
2. Revelation 16:18-20

A 9.0 earthquake in Los Angles would destroy the city and
kill 5 Million people. A 10.0 is ten times as much energy.

In the Revelation 6 earthquake "every mountain and island
was moved from its place". Because this is all over the
earth it will be like a million 9.0 earthquakes so every place
will be within 10 miles of earthquake center. So that
would make the Revelation 6 measure 15.0 on the Rictor Scale.

The Revelation 16 earthquake is worse that that:
"Every island fled and the mountains disappeared".
It is worse than the Revelation 6 earthquake. So it would
maybe 1,000 times worse: Force 18.0.

If there are two earthquakes, there can be
two comings of Jesus.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Claudia_T on page 1 of this topic:

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It will be the noisiest, most climactic event in history, not a silent, mysterious secret.

Amen, Sister Claudia_T -- Preach it.

If that event is loud enough to wake the dead - it will
be plenty noisy.

I find it strange in my study of history that it took
the post-tribs 40 years to find somebody who had used
the term 'secret rapture'. The only place i see it anymore is
in strawman arguments by posties -- i've never seen it in
a preemie's argument.

But still this passage speaks only of the
pretribulation rapture, not of the post-trib
Second Coming Event. They are two seperate
events one at the beginning of the 7-year-Day
of the Lord; one at the end of the
7-year-Day of the Lord.

I show this one page 1, last post.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by prophecynut:

Jesus is coming back for those who belong to him (1 Cor. 15:23), these Church saints were given to Him by the Most High.

No one in the OT, Gospels or the Tribulation is included in the body of Christ.

The Church is not in the context of Daniel, it was still a mystery in Daniel's time.

The name "Most High" is never given as a name for Jesus or is it ever associated with the Church (Acts 2 - Rev. 3).

Verse 25
"He (Antichrist) will speak against the Most High (God the Father) and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints (during the Tribulation) will be handed over to him (Antichrist) for a time, times and half a time" (3.5 years).

Never are the Church saints identified as belonging to the "Ancient of Days" or "Most High."
Never is Jesus called by these two names which is reserved solely for God the Father.

Amen, Brother prophecynut -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Claudia
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

What a waste of band width, out of all that mess you only have one verse on the Rapture. </font>[/QUOTE]Ah ha, I finally
found it on page one.

Now i have to run explain to God why i wasted
so much time searching through the first
15 pages backwards for this

Somebody is going to pay for this trickiness

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
1. Who is the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:9?
Answer: God the Father.

2. Who is the Son of man in Daniel 7:13?
Answer: Preincarnate Jesus.

3. How long did His Kingdom last in Daniel 7:14?
Answer: Everlasting.

Jesus is never called the "Ancient of Days."

Dn. 7:13
"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man , coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence."

There are two persons in this verse, the son of man (Jesus) and the Ancient of Days (God).

Jesus is coming back for those who belong to him (1 Cor. 15:23), these Church saints were given to Him by the Most High.

No one in the OT, Gospels or the Tribulation is included in the body of Christ.

The Church is not in the context of Daniel, it was still a mystery in Daniel's time.

The name "Most High" is never given as a name for Jesus or is it ever associated with the Church (Acts 2 - Rev. 3).

Verse 25
"He (Antichrist) will speak against the Most High (God the Father) and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints (during the Tribulation) will be handed over to him (Antichrist) for a time, times and half a time" (3.5 years).

Never are the Church saints identified as belonging to the "Ancient of Days" or "Most High."
Never is Jesus called by these two names which is reserved solely for God the Father.

Then why do you limit it to 1000 years?

By the way I never said that Jesus was called the Ancient of Days.

 

[BobRyan]

The Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 is the God the Father.

The 4 empires in Daniel 7 SHOW the timeline to go to the fall of the Roman empire and its split into 10 kingdom. The people of God in Daniel 7 are the saints of the most high and the "Judgment was passed IN FAVOR of the saints".

The idea that the SAINTS don't exist in the NT or that the NT church IS NOT included in the term "saints" in Daniel 7 -- is nothing more than failed speculation.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
No one in the OT, Gospels or the Tribulation is included in the body of Christ.

Fortunately there is no Bible text that makes that point -- it is just speculation

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Never are the Church saints identified as belonging to the "Ancient of Days" or "Most High."
Never is Jesus called by these two names which is reserved solely for God the Father.

Strange but I remember a passage or two of Scripture in the New Testament where Jesus says [John 14:6]:

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

and John 17:6-10

6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Sounds like the Church Saints belong to the Father. I believe that is what

they are thine.

means.

Now how do dispensationalists twist this Scripture?

 

[BobRyan]

I already reference that same point from John 17 for PN --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350/16.html#000233

His response?? "You will never understand - bye".

He ran as fast as possible.

I am amazed that this is so often the tactic of a failed argument.

How do people become so comfortable with that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

I have accused dispensationalists of splintering Scripture rather than "rightly dividing the Word". Unfortunately they are also splintering the Triune Godhead. They want to make God a bigamist.

Israel is the wife of the Father. The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ. Nonsense!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I already reference that same point from John 17 for PN --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350/16.html#000233

His response?? "You will never understand - bye".

He ran as fast as possible.

I am amazed that this is so often the tactic of a failed argument.

How do people become so comfortable with that?

In Christ,

Bob

I believe that dispensationalists have dug themselves into a hole in trying to defend their doctrine. Some just dig themselves even deeper, some have seen the light and are climbing out. They are called progresive dispensationalists, their doctrine is approaching that of the post trib premillennialists and eventually I believe that is where they will end up.

I believe that the dispensationalist doctrine of eschatology is wrong, however, I believe that their most grevious error is in their doctrine of a parenthesis Church.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't see them moving away from pre-trib.

But I do see them preaching "Two gospels" one for the OT and one for the NT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I have accused dispensationalists of splintering Scripture rather than "rightly dividing the Word". Unfortunately they are also splintering the Triune Godhead. They want to make God a bigamist.

Israel is the wife of the Father. The Church is the Bride of Jesus Christ. Nonsense!

They are sounding more and more like polytheists.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Ancient of Days in Daniel 7 is the God the Father.

The 4 empires in Daniel 7 SHOW the timeline to go to the fall of the Roman empire and its split into 10 kingdom. The people of God in Daniel 7 are the saints of the most high and the "Judgment was passed IN FAVOR of the saints".

The idea that the SAINTS don't exist in the NT or that the NT church IS NOT included in the term "saints" in Daniel 7 -- is nothing more than failed speculation.

In Christ,

Bob

That is the way I see it except I believe you meant to say: "The idea that the SAINTS don't exist in the OT" above.

 

[BobRyan]

ACtually the text of Daniel 7 uses the term "Saints" - I think PN was arguing that those that are mentioned in Daniel 7 do not exist in the NT - so that is why I say "the idea that SAINTS do not exist in the NT ...is a failed speculation".

In fact as we both know - the term for "saint" is found in BOTH the OT and NT.

I agree with you that the point against the dispensationalist error is pretty strong in this case.

 

[prophecynut]

The Daniel 7 saints do exist in the NT but not in the Scriptures which apply to the Church, Acts 2-Rev. 3. Never is the Church identified as saints of the Most High. Paul never addresses the saints in his day as saints of the Most High.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

John, the Beloved, doesn't saying that he sees Church appears up in the heaven from Revelation chapter 4 thru chapter 19. Your logically is not enough.

Aren't we as saints?

Please definition, what is the 'saint'?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Phi 4:21 Salute euery Saint in Christ Iesus:
the brethren which are with me, greet you.

A 'saint' is one who is 'in Christ Iesus'.

Thus there are O.T. saints - national Israeli who
believed in the coming Messiah.

Thus there are N.T. saints - mostly Gentiles who
beleive that Jesus was raised from the dead.

Thus there will be Tribulation saints - mostly
national Jewish Israeli who see that their Messiah
is Jesus.

Thus there will be physical Millinnial saints -
Jews and Gentiles together who believe that Jesus
is Lord and Savior.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
The Daniel 7 saints do exist in the NT but not in the Scriptures which apply to the Church, Acts 2-Rev. 3. Never is the Church identified as saints of the Most High. Paul never addresses the saints in his day as saints of the Most High.

Yes but the Apostle Peter uses the same descriptive phrases for the Church that was used of Israel in the Old Testament:

1 Peter 2:9
9. But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 14:2
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

When this Topic gets to page 20, the PTB = powers that be, would
like to shut it down. Quite frankly i'm enjoying the discussion
especially the posts of Claudia. I'd like to see the discussion continued.
We can start another thread and call it:
#2: 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture
(I put the number in front of the thread so it can be seen on the
higher level summary pages.)