2 Thessalonians 2:13

Iconoclast · Apr 11, 2011

Robert Snow said: ↑

No even close to the truth. There are many preachers who know Greek who see the falseness of Calvinism. I had professors in blbie college who had doctorates, yet they clearly pointed to Calvinism as being inconsistent with biblical truth.
Click to expand...

The truth of God is Spiritually revealed. A Doctorate does not mean they have come to truth.

Allan · Apr 11, 2011

Iconoclast said: ↑

The truth of God is Spiritually revealed. A Doctorate does not mean they have come to truth.
Click to expand...

Haha! Ain't that the truth!

Van · Apr 11, 2011

Shall we go over it one more time.

God chose you [Thessalonians] as first fruit, for salvation. God is the subject, the one performing the action. The thing acted upon - you is the direct object of the verb, chose. The compliment - for salvation - provides an aspect (describes a feature) of the direct object -you.

Through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. This adverbial phrase answers the question "How" (through sanctification by the Spirit - the Spirit set us apart in Christ) and the question "why" (God based His choice on faith in the truth, faith He had credited as righteousness.)

Why is this view not the most grammatical view? Here are the claims from the "experts."

(1)The preposition ἐν is governing two separate datives--sanctification and belief. This is true, "en" is connected to two separate datives. But what about this construction suggests the phrase cannot be adverbial? Nothing.

(2) There is a conjunction between the two phrases. This is true, also. But what about this construction suggests the phrases cannot be used adverbially? Nothing.

(3) This prepositional phrase, frankly, is too far away in the sentence flow to modify the verb. This is false. As I understand it, if an adverb or adjective points to more than one verb or noun, then we use proximity to select the most likely meaning. Here the adverbial phrase points away from the noun, and to the verb, so we do not need to use proximity.

Final point concerning all these "grammar" arguments. What the experts are saying is that the phase is adverbial, but is modifying the verbal idea within the noun salvation. So arguments (1) and (2) are self defeating, if the phase modifies "saved - the verbal idea - then it is adverbial and the arguments are fiction.

Bottom line, Paul used inspired words to say what he meant, he could have said "to be saved" but instead said "for salvation." Thus to translate the text based on what the Calvinists would like it to say is without merit.

jbh28 · Apr 11, 2011

The Archangel said: ↑

Much has been said about this verse by Van and others--pointing to grammatical arguments that are hopelessly flawed in an attempt to make our faith the basis of God's choosing us.

Here is the verse in question:
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (ESV)

Here it is in Greek:
Ἡμεῖς δὲ ὀφείλομεν εὐχαριστεῖν τῷ θεῷ πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοὶ ἠγαπημένοι ὑπὸ κυρίου, ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας,

The entire debate has raged around the use of the phrase containing the Greek preposition "ἐν." In the following posts, Van has put forward his "interpretation" of the grammar: here, here, here, here, here, and here (to post a few)

My aim in this post it to provide a detailed exegesis of the passage and to demonstrate that the passage cannot say that we are elected in our own time because of our own faith.

The portion of the passage in question is this: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας, which, being translated, is: because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Let us take a bit at a time, shall we.

Section 1: God chose (eliminating the "because" as superfluous to this discussion) These words, in Greek, are εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς. Here's the break-down:

εἵλατο A very rare verb in the New Testament, being used only three times. The word means "chose" and its form here is Aorist Middle Indicative, 3rd Person Singular. This word is the verb of the subject "God" and in its inflected form it means "He [God] chose for Himself.

Who did He choose?

ὑμᾶς A common word in the New Testament--the 2nd Person Plural personal pronoun. Here this is presented in the Accusative form.

Who did the choosing?

ὁ θεὸς This is the Nominative Singular form of the word "God." This indicates that "God" is the subject of the verb "chose."

So the simple translation of this section: God chose you for Himself

Section 2: As the firstfruits

This section will not have Greek in it. Suffice it to say that there is a textual variant. The ESV has "firstfruits," which is, likely, the wrong way to go. It is better to understand this Accusative noun as saying "from the beginning." The proper translation is of no immediate consequence, however, as it does not affect the grammar in question.

Section 3: to be saved

This word is the accusative noun σωτηρίαν preceded by the preposition εἰς.

For those of you who do not know, Greek prepositions change meanings based on the case of their objects. Certain prepositions, however, take their objects in only one case. εἰς is one of those prepositions, always taking its object in the accusative case.

εἰς is a pronoun of motion. Which is to say there is a verbal idea (not grammatically, but conceptually) with the phrase εἰς σωτηρίαν.

So, while this is technically a noun, to properly convey the concept of motion contained in the Greek pronoun εἰς and to properly convey the inherent concept in the Greek word σωτηρίαν, which itself implies motion, conceptually, one should translate this with a verbal aspect. Now that does not mean that the original text of εἰς σωτηρίαν is a verb. However, when trying to express the basic, underlying meaning of the construction in English, a verbal form is perfectly acceptable.

NOTE: There are three accusatives in the this part of the passage--You (a pronoun), from the beginning/firstfruits (an accusative which gives more information about the pronoun "you"), and salvation. Because all these accusatives are here, there is one "idea" of Direct Object. Technically, this is known as a double accusative.

So, the simple translation of the preceding sections is: God chose you for Himself from the beginning to be saved

Section 4: Here's where the fun begins! The phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" obviously is modifying something. Is it the verb "chose" or is it the noun "salvation?" Here's the Greek breakdown:

ἐν The Greek preposition "in"

ἁγιασμῷ Dative form of the word "sanctify"

πνεύματος Genitive form of the word "spirit." Modifies "Sanctification"

καὶ The Greek conjunction "and."

πίστει The Dative form of "belief"

ἀληθείας The Genitive form of "truth"

Some considerations: ἐν always takes its object in the Dative case. Also, there are some 2700 or so uses of ἐν in the New Testament. Of the Greek prepositions, it has the widest range of semantic uses. But, the basic idea is "in" or "by" or "through" is conveyed.

In this construction, it is easy to see that this phrase (started by the preposition ἐν) is being used adjectivally (as in modifying a noun) and not adverbially.

ἐν + dative can, under certain circumstances, express means or manner while modifying a verb. However, two things show that this is not modifying the verb.

1. The preposition ἐν is governing two separate datives--sanctification and belief.

2. There is a conjunction between the clauses of this prepositional phrase

3. The word order shows this prepositional phrase to modify the noun "salvation" and not the verb "chose." This prepositional phrase, frankly, is too far away in the sentence flow to modify the verb. Had Paul wanted to express that God chose us because of our sanctification or belief, he would have put this prepositional phrase next to the verb.

Conclusion: The two dative nouns, sanctification and belief, are inexorably linked in concept. They are not two separate things; they are not one-in-the-same. They are two sides of the same coin.

We should expect a second ἐν before the second dative "belief." That the ἐν is missing and a conjunction is present shows the preposition ἐν governs both datives. That ἐν governs both the dative nouns and that both the dative nouns have genitive modifiers demonstrates, beyond a doubt, that this prepositional phrase is indeed adjectival and is modifying the noun "salvation."

So, the simple translation is "God chose you for Himself from the beginning into salvation (or to be saved) by sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

This means, that we are indeed saved through sanctification of the Spirit and we are saved through our believing in the truth. But, we are not chosen because of these. The Aorist form of the middle verb "chose" means that the choice was made in its entirety sometime in the past, the Aorist envisioning a "snapshot" of time--and God Himself made that choice for Himself. So, the simple sentence gives us all we need to know: God chose us (for Himself) to be saved. But, He does not save us without our being sanctified (by the spirit), which is, obviously His work, and without our believing in the truth, which is, again, obviously His work. He chooses us for His own good purposes and He makes us fit for the Kingdom.

That salvation is accomplished through our sanctification and our belief shows that we are not just "saved against our will." The meaning of these concepts related to salvation, when juxtaposed to God's choice of us, shows that we must become willing participants in our own salvation. Surely God works to sanctify us--and that takes far too many forms to go into here. But, in His sanctifying work, we are to respond to Him and as He is changing us to be more Christlike, we must change to become more Christlike.

God makes the first move and we, then, respond to Him in repentance and faith leading to our ultimate sanctification (and belief in the truth) as He works on us to make us--once rebellious rebels--fit for the Kingdom as loyal sons and daughters of the Great King.

Having taken some time to formulate my grammatical argument, I was able to consult many resources and work through some other texts. After formulating my argument, however, I stumbled on the following resource:

2 Thessalonians 2:13--What Do Prepositions Modify

This resource was written by Dr. William Mounce--the dean of Greek teachers in the US. I was pleasantly surprised when, after reading his article, he agreed with me! I highly recommend the article.

The back and forth between Van and others only demonstrates that there is no substitute for working the text yourself. Remember, one can fancy himself a mechanic just because he can name all the parts of the internal combustion engine. However, if he cannot put the parts together properly and make the engine run, he is no mechanic at all.

Discuss, as I'm sure you [all] will and enjoy the discussion.

The Archangel
Click to expand...

nuff said....

Van · Apr 11, 2011

More than enough because it is a work of fiction. As has been demonstrated there are no "grammatical arguments that are hopelessly flawed" concerning Van's view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. However the Calvinist view violates the syntax, turning a noun into a verb, the old "verbal idea" dodge to avoid the truth that God chose you for salvation through ... faith in the truth. Rather than discuss the obvious, arcane grammar arguments are made, with lots of words in Greek in a transparent effort to avoid the truth.

jbh28 · Apr 11, 2011

Van said: ↑

Shall we go over it one more time.
Click to expand...

ok... here we go

The Archangel said: ↑

Much has been said about this verse by Van and others--pointing to grammatical arguments that are hopelessly flawed in an attempt to make our faith the basis of God's choosing us.

Here is the verse in question:
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (ESV)

Here it is in Greek:
Ἡμεῖς δὲ ὀφείλομεν εὐχαριστεῖν τῷ θεῷ πάντοτε περὶ ὑμῶν, ἀδελφοὶ ἠγαπημένοι ὑπὸ κυρίου, ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας,

The entire debate has raged around the use of the phrase containing the Greek preposition "ἐν." In the following posts, Van has put forward his "interpretation" of the grammar: here, here, here, here, here, and here (to post a few)

My aim in this post it to provide a detailed exegesis of the passage and to demonstrate that the passage cannot say that we are elected in our own time because of our own faith.

The portion of the passage in question is this: ὅτι εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς ἀπαρχὴν εἰς σωτηρίαν ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος καὶ πίστει ἀληθείας, which, being translated, is: because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Let us take a bit at a time, shall we.

Section 1: God chose (eliminating the "because" as superfluous to this discussion) These words, in Greek, are εἵλατο ὑμᾶς ὁ θεὸς. Here's the break-down:

εἵλατο A very rare verb in the New Testament, being used only three times. The word means "chose" and its form here is Aorist Middle Indicative, 3rd Person Singular. This word is the verb of the subject "God" and in its inflected form it means "He [God] chose for Himself.

Who did He choose?

ὑμᾶς A common word in the New Testament--the 2nd Person Plural personal pronoun. Here this is presented in the Accusative form.

Who did the choosing?

ὁ θεὸς This is the Nominative Singular form of the word "God." This indicates that "God" is the subject of the verb "chose."

So the simple translation of this section: God chose you for Himself

Section 2: As the firstfruits

This section will not have Greek in it. Suffice it to say that there is a textual variant. The ESV has "firstfruits," which is, likely, the wrong way to go. It is better to understand this Accusative noun as saying "from the beginning." The proper translation is of no immediate consequence, however, as it does not affect the grammar in question.

Section 3: to be saved

This word is the accusative noun σωτηρίαν preceded by the preposition εἰς.

For those of you who do not know, Greek prepositions change meanings based on the case of their objects. Certain prepositions, however, take their objects in only one case. εἰς is one of those prepositions, always taking its object in the accusative case.

εἰς is a pronoun of motion. Which is to say there is a verbal idea (not grammatically, but conceptually) with the phrase εἰς σωτηρίαν.

So, while this is technically a noun, to properly convey the concept of motion contained in the Greek pronoun εἰς and to properly convey the inherent concept in the Greek word σωτηρίαν, which itself implies motion, conceptually, one should translate this with a verbal aspect. Now that does not mean that the original text of εἰς σωτηρίαν is a verb. However, when trying to express the basic, underlying meaning of the construction in English, a verbal form is perfectly acceptable.

NOTE: There are three accusatives in the this part of the passage--You (a pronoun), from the beginning/firstfruits (an accusative which gives more information about the pronoun "you"), and salvation. Because all these accusatives are here, there is one "idea" of Direct Object. Technically, this is known as a double accusative.

So, the simple translation of the preceding sections is: God chose you for Himself from the beginning to be saved

Section 4: Here's where the fun begins! The phrase "through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" obviously is modifying something. Is it the verb "chose" or is it the noun "salvation?" Here's the Greek breakdown:

ἐν The Greek preposition "in"

ἁγιασμῷ Dative form of the word "sanctify"

πνεύματος Genitive form of the word "spirit." Modifies "Sanctification"

καὶ The Greek conjunction "and."

πίστει The Dative form of "belief"

ἀληθείας The Genitive form of "truth"

Some considerations: ἐν always takes its object in the Dative case. Also, there are some 2700 or so uses of ἐν in the New Testament. Of the Greek prepositions, it has the widest range of semantic uses. But, the basic idea is "in" or "by" or "through" is conveyed.

In this construction, it is easy to see that this phrase (started by the preposition ἐν) is being used adjectivally (as in modifying a noun) and not adverbially.

ἐν + dative can, under certain circumstances, express means or manner while modifying a verb. However, two things show that this is not modifying the verb.

1. The preposition ἐν is governing two separate datives--sanctification and belief.

2. There is a conjunction between the clauses of this prepositional phrase

3. The word order shows this prepositional phrase to modify the noun "salvation" and not the verb "chose." This prepositional phrase, frankly, is too far away in the sentence flow to modify the verb. Had Paul wanted to express that God chose us because of our sanctification or belief, he would have put this prepositional phrase next to the verb.

Conclusion: The two dative nouns, sanctification and belief, are inexorably linked in concept. They are not two separate things; they are not one-in-the-same. They are two sides of the same coin.

We should expect a second ἐν before the second dative "belief." That the ἐν is missing and a conjunction is present shows the preposition ἐν governs both datives. That ἐν governs both the dative nouns and that both the dative nouns have genitive modifiers demonstrates, beyond a doubt, that this prepositional phrase is indeed adjectival and is modifying the noun "salvation."

So, the simple translation is "God chose you for Himself from the beginning into salvation (or to be saved) by sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."

This means, that we are indeed saved through sanctification of the Spirit and we are saved through our believing in the truth. But, we are not chosen because of these. The Aorist form of the middle verb "chose" means that the choice was made in its entirety sometime in the past, the Aorist envisioning a "snapshot" of time--and God Himself made that choice for Himself. So, the simple sentence gives us all we need to know: God chose us (for Himself) to be saved. But, He does not save us without our being sanctified (by the spirit), which is, obviously His work, and without our believing in the truth, which is, again, obviously His work. He chooses us for His own good purposes and He makes us fit for the Kingdom.

That salvation is accomplished through our sanctification and our belief shows that we are not just "saved against our will." The meaning of these concepts related to salvation, when juxtaposed to God's choice of us, shows that we must become willing participants in our own salvation. Surely God works to sanctify us--and that takes far too many forms to go into here. But, in His sanctifying work, we are to respond to Him and as He is changing us to be more Christlike, we must change to become more Christlike.

God makes the first move and we, then, respond to Him in repentance and faith leading to our ultimate sanctification (and belief in the truth) as He works on us to make us--once rebellious rebels--fit for the Kingdom as loyal sons and daughters of the Great King.

Having taken some time to formulate my grammatical argument, I was able to consult many resources and work through some other texts. After formulating my argument, however, I stumbled on the following resource:

2 Thessalonians 2:13--What Do Prepositions Modify

This resource was written by Dr. William Mounce--the dean of Greek teachers in the US. I was pleasantly surprised when, after reading his article, he agreed with me! I highly recommend the article.

The back and forth between Van and others only demonstrates that there is no substitute for working the text yourself. Remember, one can fancy himself a mechanic just because he can name all the parts of the internal combustion engine. However, if he cannot put the parts together properly and make the engine run, he is no mechanic at all.

Discuss, as I'm sure you [all] will and enjoy the discussion.

The Archangel
Click to expand...

Van · Apr 11, 2011

More than enough because it is a work of fiction. As has been demonstrated there are no "grammatical arguments that are hopelessly flawed" concerning Van's view of 2 Thessalonians 2:13. However the Calvinist view violates the syntax, turning a noun into a verb, the old "verbal idea" dodge to avoid the truth that God chose you for salvation through ... faith in the truth. Rather than discuss the obvious, arcane grammar arguments are made, with lots of words in Greek in a transparent effort to avoid the truth.

Gabriel Elijah · Apr 11, 2011

Van—since the last thread got closed down & I couldn’t respond to you---I’ll apologize to you here since you think I’m trying to slander you—that’s not my intentions---but everything you’ve written in this thread & the election before time thread—to me-are obvious attempts to act like you know Greek well enough to make claims your making---when you yourself admit you don’t! But b/c your taking this personal—I’ll leave you alone for awhile. Hope you continue to study & I sincerely hope you take my posts as a reason to study Greek for yourself & not just go on your logical conclusion on how the Greek language should be used properly. God Bless!

2 Thessalonians 2:13

Iconoclast Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Allan Active Member

Van Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

jbh28 Active Member

Van Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

jbh28 Active Member

Van Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Gabriel Elijah Member
Site Supporter

Useful Searches

2 Thessalonians 2:13

Iconoclast Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Allan Active Member

Van Well-Known Member Site Supporter

jbh28 Active Member

Van Well-Known Member Site Supporter

jbh28 Active Member

Van Well-Known Member Site Supporter

Gabriel Elijah Member Site Supporter

Iconoclast Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Van Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Van Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Van Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

Gabriel Elijah Member
Site Supporter