2 Tim 2:15

[Salamander]

If one reads the entire website itis clear that there was a heavy reliance on the KJV.

I would dare say, and I don't know Spanish, that the places where the KJV translated spoudazō to deal with diligence this Spanish version did the same. On this, however, I stand open to correction if I am wrong.

400 years of Bible history has relied heavily on the KJB.

Can you show us where a complete rendering of the word "study" doesn't require diligence? Even an incomplete rendering of study reveals at least some level of diligence.:sleeping_2:

 

[Salamander]

Right on Roger. Gomez is a pawn of KJVO only extremists. His work is not gaining acceptance like this web site claims. The only ones that seem to use it are the KJVO missionaries who push it upon the people to whom they minister.

One example of how ridiculous this work is if found in 1 Cor. 13. The Spanish word for charity has very strong Catholic connotations- more so than the English word. For this reason the 1960 RVR changed the word to amor which is a better word with no catholic connotations. But KJVO pastors, some who did not speak much Spanish if any said that the word must be caridad instead of amor. A bad move. At least this is a claim of Calvin George. I have no reason to doubt him though.

Foul!

"Amor" is most often understood to have sexual connotations. Go look it up!

 

[Salamander]

Why say its wrong if its based from the same textual family as the KJV?

The I think I explained why I will not except the Gomez Bible. For more info on it see this.

Um, I believe it is the reference "RVR" he is saying is wrong, not that the RVG is worng.:wavey:

 

[4His_glory]

Um, I believe it is the reference "RVR" he is saying is wrong, not that the RVG is worng.:wavey:

You misunderstood me. The RVR is based on the same textual family as the KJV. So why would he have a problem with its rendering of this verse. The only conclusion I can come to is he feels the KJV is superior to all versions including those in foreign languages.

 

[4His_glory]

Foul!

"Amor" is most often understood to have sexual connotations. Go look it up!

No that is wrong. Do you even know Spanish? I live in a country were we speak it every day and I can tell you that amor is not normally understood to have sexual connotations.

When we preach of the love of God we speak of el amor de Dios. Its not a filthy word as you would imply.

 

[Askjo]

The I think I explained why I will not except the Gomez Bible. For more info on it see this.

Calvin George? Go to the link: http://www.biblefortoday.org/idx_foreign_bibles.htm

 

[AntennaFarmer]

According to 2 Timothy 2:15 and its immediate context, towards what object was the apostle telling the young pastor to apply his mind (for the acquisition of knowledge, as by reading, investigation, or reflection)? Despite the construction of sentence, most folks think "study" should be applied to "the word of truth".

It ought be obvious that "the word of truth" is not a reference to just one individual phoneme of truth. The phrase can be therefore understood as a 'body of truth', 'the entire message of truth', or even more simply 'the Truth' (the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth).

Certainly the vast majority of 'truth' in Timothy's possession was from Paul's verbal teaching. It makes little sense that Timothy was being instructed here to exert himself, endeavor, and give diligence of thought to past spoken doctrinal conversations they had between themselves. I find it less likely that Timothy is supposed to attempt to obtain a grasp of spoken instruction by methodical or exhaustive thought than the object of his 'diligence' was to be the proper execution of his office (doing all the Lord's work). God's 'approval' will be the reward of his efforts.

Of course, studying the Holy writ would be part of his duty. Timothy would have had (some of) the Hebrew scriptures, but as little as two letters from Paul may have been the extent of his NT hardcopy. Nonetheless, in light of the context of the passage (vain speech and outright heresy) written scripture is not primarily being addressed here. Therefore, "study" (in our contemporary sense) is logically not the intended meaning.

I think we agree that context is important to our understanding of verse 15.
It goes back to verse 7: "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things."

Any notion that contemporary speech limits the meaning of "study" primarily to written material would be incorrect. "Study" in contempary English usage (and 1611 usage) relates primarily to "thought" rather than to any particular medium.

 

[4His_glory]

Calvin George? Go to the link: http://www.biblefortoday.org/idx_foreign_bibles.htm

Your link claims that the Gomez is accepted by churches in Argentina. I am in Argentina and I do not know of any IFB church plant that uses the Gomez. There may be one, but the vast majority do not. They use the trusted RVR 1960.

Again I don´t agree with what Calvin George says. But he is a legitimate voice of concern.

 

[Amy.G]

Foul!

"Amor" is most often understood to have sexual connotations. Go look it up!

You are telling someone who lives in South America and speaks/reads fluent Spanish that he doesn't know what Spanish words mean. :laugh:

You crack me up.

 

[franklinmonroe]

I think we agree that context is important to our understanding of verse 15.
It goes back to verse 7: "Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things."

Any notion that contemporary speech limits the meaning of "study" primarily to written material would be incorrect. "Study" in contempary English usage (and 1611 usage) relates primarily to "thought" rather than to any particular medium.

Yes, AF, we do agree that the context is important. I very much appreciate your contributions. I would sincerely enjoy more interaction with you.

I also concur that contemporary speech doesn't technically limit the meaning of "study" to written material, but my experience has been that many readers have concluded that "study" essential means 'reading plus contemplation' (in this case, of the Bible). I'm very certain that the uncritical public today does not apply 'studious thought' to past spoken conversations (unless captured on tape or in transcript), and rarely to virtuous behavior.

If my position was not already clear, I think the KJV rendering "study" was and is perfectly legitimate here. My interpretation of "study" here has less to do with introspective 'thinking' and more to do with ministry in 'deed'.

 

[franklinmonroe]

The Webster's 1828 Dictionary states (my bold) --

STUDY, v.i. [L.]

1. To fix the mind closely upon a subject; to muse; to dwell upon in thought.

I found a moral first, and then studied for a fable.

2. To apply the mind to books. He studies eight hours in the day.

3. To endeavor diligently.

That ye study to be quiet and do your own business. 1 Thessalonians 4:11
​

We cannot know with certainty which definition the AV men had in mind when they choose "study". I don't think the king's revisors meant #2, but I do think that most contemporary readers think of "study" in terms of the applying of the mind "to books". We do know that definitions of the Greek word do not explicitly include 'studious thought' --

... As mentioned, the underlying Greek word here is spoudazo, which is defined as — 1) to hasten, make haste 2) to exert one's self, endeavour, give diligence...

In fact, spoudazo basically means to 'make haste' and from that comes the meanings of zeal and diligence. It seems to be used in papyri in such senses as 'do your best', 'take care', 'hurry on the doing of something'. This word conveys the idea of exertion. It means to be conscientious, zealous and earnest in discharging of one's duty or obligation (in this case, Timothy's pastoral ministry).

Evidently, Ken Wuest wrote in his Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament --

... to make haste, do one’s best, take care, desire. The idea of making haste, being eager, giving diligence, and putting forth effort are in the word. The word speaks of intense effort and determination.​

This verb speaks of intensity of purpose followed by intensity of effort toward the realization of that purpose. In other words, spoudazo does not stop with affecting one's state of mind, but also affects one's activity.

 

[Mexdeaf]

No that is wrong. Do you even know Spanish? I live in a country were we speak it every day and I can tell you that amor is not normally understood to have sexual connotations.

When we preach of the love of God we speak of el amor de Dios. Its not a filthy word as you would imply.

As a former missionary to Mexico and one that still speaks Spanish in my ministry on a daily basis, I concur. That is typical KJVO extremism applied to a language most KJVO have no knowledge of.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Re: Calvin George

I have never had the pleasure of meeting Bro. George but I stand with him on the issue of Spanish Bible Versions. I disagree with him in his stand on the KJV, however.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Re: Keith Gomez

I do not know of ONE church in Mexico that uses the Gomez version. His boasts of 'wide acceptance' fall mighty short.

 

[robycop3]

True. But in this case a KJVO has a problem with a version that was translated from the same textual family and was actually translated before the KJV. I wonder why the KJV rendering is claimed to be better when this is the case. Seems like an english only bias.

Because the KJVOs are constantly looking for something...ANYTHING...to attempt to rescue their doctrine from absurdity, to give themselves reasons for going on believing it.

In the KJV, we see the word 'study' three times, twice in the New Testament. its first appearance in the NT is in 1 Thess. 4:11; "that ye STUDY to be quiet". Clearly, the meaning here is 'strive', as the Greek here, "philotimeomai", means 'to strive, make it one's ambition'. Given the English definition of "spoudazo", we must conclude 'study' also means "strive", etc. in 2 Tim. 2:15.

Newer versions read "make it your ambition" or "aspire" in 1 Thess.4:11, but we don't see the KJVOs complaining about THAT one! Just goesta show the KJVOs are consistently inconsistent.

As I said, the whole 2 Tim. 2:15 thingie is just another meaningless KJVO sideshow.

 

[4His_glory]

I have never had the pleasure of meeting Bro. George but I stand with him on the issue of Spanish Bible Versions. I disagree with him in his stand on the KJV, however.

Ditto. I agree. I have never met him as well, but I have met his father who has been a missionary here in Argentina for a long time.

¡Dios te bendiga!

 

[Salamander]

We cannot know with certainty which definition the AV men had in mind when they choose "study".

You might like others to believe that tripe, but not here.

I don't think the king's revisors meant #2, but I do think that most contemporary readers think of "study" in terms of the applying of the mind "to books". We do know that definitions of the Greek word do not explicitly include 'studious thought' --

We do know that study requires diligence to be effective.

In fact, spoudazo basically means to 'make haste' and from that comes the meanings of zeal and diligence. It seems to be used in papyri in such senses as 'do your best', 'take care', 'hurry on the doing of something'. This word conveys the idea of exertion. It means to be conscientious, zealous and earnest in discharging of one's duty or obligation (in this case, Timothy's pastoral ministry).

We know that only a basic understanding of any passage of Scripture leaves one wanting for more, thus study requires diligence.

Evidently, Ken Wuest wrote in his Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament --

... to make haste, do one’s best, take care, desire. The idea of making haste, being eager, giving diligence, and putting forth effort are in the word. The word speaks of intense effort and determination.​

This verb speaks of intensity of purpose followed by intensity of effort toward the realization of that purpose. In other words, spoudazo does not stop with affecting one's state of mind, but also affects one's activity.

Yep, sounds just like study to me!

 

[Salamander]

You misunderstood me. The RVR is based on the same textual family as the KJV. So why would he have a problem with its rendering of this verse. The only conclusion I can come to is he feels the KJV is superior to all versions including those in foreign languages.

Gee, did you miss something?

 

[Salamander]

No that is wrong. Do you even know Spanish? I live in a country were we speak it every day and I can tell you that amor is not normally understood to have sexual connotations.

When we preach of the love of God we speak of el amor de Dios. Its not a filthy word as you would imply.

Sorry, I just went by the Spanish to English dictionary, and I supose the song "That's Amore'" is also wrong?

 

[4His_glory]

Sorry, I just went by the Spanish to English dictionary, and I supose the song "That's Amore'" is also wrong?

No problem.

Amore is Italian if I am not mistaken. I can´t answer that since I don´t really know Italian.