#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

[J. Jump]

Reject the pastor and follow a false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion? Jumping out of the boat to sink in a sea of garbage.

Again so a pastor is 100% right all the time? Just becuase a person is a pastor they can be trusted in all things?

And if you want to see it that way that's fine, but neither you nor any others have been able to show with Scripture that this is a false doctrine. And you can continue to make that claim, but until you can provide the Scripture evidence it's just hot air.

 

[Hope of Glory]

It's an idea about interpretation in the same sense ME is. I'll take your advice that it needs to go.

That's one of the problems; too much interpretation going on and not enough translating. When the Bible is translated, instead of interpreted, there is very little that seems ambiguous at all. But, when you interpret, you get all sorts of denominations, divisions within denominations...

 

[Hope of Glory]

Reject the pastor and follow a false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion?

Jumping out of the boat to sink in a sea of garbage.

Wait a minute! Does this mean that I can simply demand that all ya'll accept what I'm teaching? If so, debate over!

What you are saying makes no sense: "No matter how wrong your pastor is, you must follow him or else..."

 

[Hope of Glory]

Since Tim is the only person who has bothered to answer this, I think I'll bump it again and hope for more than "singular is really plural" type of answers: [Edited to add: I was not implying that Tim gave this sort of answer; it was a reference to others.]

In John 7:39, "believe" is a present, active, participle. What happens when they stop believing?

In John 3:16, "believe" is also a present, active, participle. If "believe" is present tense, it's continuous action, and it can stop. What happens there when they stop believing?

"Should not perish" is subjunctive; the ones believing might or might not perish.

"Have" is also subjunctive.

The one believing in the present tense might not (but might) perish, and might (or might not) have aionian life.

If one stops believing, what happens?

How does this verse fit in with everlasting security?

Why will no one but Tim answer these questions?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

From what I have seen, several have given scripture over and over again and it is rejected by the KE proponents..

 

[Diggin in da Word]

A true child of God will not stop believing in God, nor in His Son and the finished work on the cross.

To ask what happens when a saved person, or believer, stops believing is foolish.

 

[J. Jump]

From what I have seen, several have given scripture over and over again and it is rejected by the KE proponents.

I'm talking about Scripture that isn't taken out of context to prove one's point. I can prove just about anything I want if all I use is a single verse of Scripture and rip it out of context.

No one has been able to show any consistency from the OT to the NT that all Christians will rule and reign and that all Christians will receive the better inheritance or the double portion or that all Christians will be a part of the bride of Christ.

Simply because it is impossible to do. Oh some Scripture has been tossed around here and there, but every time someone is asked prove their doctrine from the OT they can not do it.

The kingdom doctrine can be found throughout Scripture as any doctrine should, both OT and NT.

If you think it is wrong and that all Christians will rule and reign with Christ, and that all Christians will make up the bride of Christian and that all Christians will receive the double portion of the inheritance or the better inheritance, then please show me with Scripture from both the OT and NT and then be willing to answer questions about your Scriptures and how they correspond with other Sriptures.

In the 10 months that I have been studying this doctrine not a single person and I have spoken with MANY have been able to do that or are they even willing to do that.

So please step to the plate and knock it out of the park for you side!

 

[J. Jump]

A true child of God will not stop believing in God, nor in His Son and the finished work on the cross.

That's a nice saying, but there just isn't any Scripture to back that up.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I'm talking about Scripture that isn't taken out of context to prove one's point. I can prove just about anything I want if all I use is a single verse of Scripture and rip it out of context.

I see that. You did a bang-up job of twisting the scripture to prove kingdom exclusion.

 

[Hope of Glory]

From what I have seen, several have given scripture over and over again and it is rejected by the KE proponents..

With the exception of WebDog and Tiny Tim, the rule of the day goes like this:

Ignore any Scripture that they post, but post one of your own.

When your own is refuted, ignore the refutation and shout them down and tell them they're heretics leading cults and they're going to hell! (Or, asinine arguments such as, "Singular is really plural because it fits my preconceived theology.")

Tiny Tim and WebDog at least say, "Here's my Scripture", "Here's why I think yours is wrong", "Here's my rebuttal to your last statement", they don't lie and slander, and they admit when opinion is opinion.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I cannot show you. Your eyes and heart are blinded.

 

[Hope of Glory]

A true child of God will not stop believing in God, nor in His Son and the finished work on the cross.

To ask what happens when a saved person, or believer, stops believing is foolish.

That must be why all those exhortations about continuing to believe are in there: It's all a smoke screen by God to conceal the fact that it won't really happen. He's just trying to trick us.

Perhaps you would be willing to post a Scripture to back up this assertion that you're making here, though.

The funniest thing about it, though, is that you still have not answered the question. Perhaps it is unanswerable in your theology.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I cannot show you. Your eyes and heart are blinded.

Ooooh, brilliance at it's finest...

 

[J. Jump]

I cannot show you. Your eyes and heart are blinded.

Well just give it a shot, because I tell you I'm only interested in the Truth. And if you can prove with Scripture from both the OT and NT and then be willing to answer questions about why your beliefs are correct I am not tied to a doctrine and will readily admit that I am wrong. I did it 10 months ago.

There are several funny things about these discussions. One is that people assume we are blinded and they are not, but have no desire to prove their own beliefs with Scripture. And then the conversation usually deteriates to you are wrong and I am right and you need to believe me becuase I'm a pastor and I say you are wrong or I have a seminary degree and so therefore you can not be right.

I'm not saying that about you HBSMN, because I don't know what your background is, but if you have the Truth as you say you do and we are so badly mistaken then please with Scripture from both the OT and the NT show me that all Christians will form the bride and that all Christians will rule and reign with Christ and if you can show me with Scripture that that is the case I will eat as many crows as you want me to, because I don't have a problem admitting that I am wrong.

But I'm not going to believe you or anybody else just because you say so. I didn't do that 10 months ago and I'm not going to do it now. Show me the Scripture!

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

J. Jump,

I have spent extensive time going through the many posts in this thread, and others on this same subject.

I have seen several posts showing the ME or KE doctrine to be false by scripture, yet every time scripture is brought up, those giving them are accused of 'cherry picking', or 'pulling verses out of context' just to fit their doctrine. I cannot see where they did either.

I submit to you, that it is the KE or ME proponents who are the ones that are 'cherry picking' and 'pulling verses out of context' just to make it fit your doctrine.

Christ's body, as has been pointed out, is not divided. Yet, the KE or ME proponents divide the body.

God's Word promised that we would 'ever be with the Lord' at the time of the Rapture, yet the KE or ME proponents change that to the Lord may send some to outer darkness.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The Bride will indeed be made up of those who are Christ's.

I know, I know, you say, 'then who are the guests?'

The guests and the Bride cannot be the same person.

The Lord revealed to me that the guests are the Old Testament saints, those before the Cross. The Bride consists of the true Believers after the Cross

You may say, Oh, but what about the one guest that came in and did not wear a wedding garment?

Another good question. I believe Jesus answered that in John chapter 10 when He said that 'He that entereth not by the door... is a thief and a robber.'

I submit that the guest did not enter in through the door called Mercy and Forgiveness. He came clothed in his own filthy rags of man's righteousness. He did not clothe Himself with Christ's Righteousness that was provided to all wedding guests.

We cannot stand in our own righteousness and please God. We must be clothed in Christ's Righteousness and His alone.

 

[Karen]

That must be why all those exhortations about continuing to believe are in there: It's all a smoke screen by God to conceal the fact that it won't really happen. He's just trying to trick us.
.............

Well, He is not trying to trick us. The conditional statement presented in Hebrews is followed by a statement that if it did happen Christ would be crucified all over again. He can't, and it would be impossible to repent again. Showing in the end that falling away is impossible.
You have, I am sure, read the many variations of explaining this verse.
It is less than complete for you to represent things as either your view or God is putting up a smokescreen.

If you want to interact with a number of people explaining this passage, go to the recent entries on sbcoutpost.com. No belief in smokescreens there.

 

[Karen]

I don't understand this statement. There are several kingdom believers that have been posting and not a single one of us are ridden with worry about things.

I guess if you didn't have a complete understanding then one might worry, but if you understand the doctrine there is nothing to worry about. If I have by eyes fixed on Christ there is nothing to worry about. Now if I don't have my eyes fixed on Christ, but fixed on myself and I'm living a life of open, blatant rebellion, then yes I have something to worry about............

I will try to be clearer.
One way of presenting the Gospel is to start by asking someone, "If you died tonight, why should God let you enter Heaven?"
Many, not all, say something like: "I am a pretty good person, certainly better than lots of people. I don't lie, steal, cheat, murder,....etc."
Then you point out what the Bible has to say about sin and how only Christ is sufficient to pay for our sins. (Yes, I know there is a lot more than that you say.)

You say you are not worried about being excluded from the Millennial Kingdom. But the way I am reading your statements, your confidence does not lie in the fact that Jesus Christ made a full and sufficient sacrifice once and for all for your sins. That gets you into Heaven, you say.
You are counting on being in the "Millennial Kingdom" because you are good enough. Especially compared to some other "Christians" who are in unrepentant sin. What that sin is or how frequently it occurs you do not wish to define, yet I suspect you are not claiming sinless perfection. So you are sinning, yet you don't think you are sinning enough to be excluded.
So ultimately you seem to be basing your confidence on a subjective view of how well you are living the Christian life.

 

[Lacy Evans]

You say you are not worried about being excluded from the Millennial Kingdom.

If that is a plural "you":tongue3: , then don't put me in there. That is the salvation that we are to work out with Fear and trembling. Even Paul wasn't sure he would get in. (1 Cor 9:27, 2 Cor 5:9-11, Phil 3:11-15, Heb 4:11)

But the way I am reading your statements, your confidence does not lie in the fact that Jesus Christ made a full and sufficient sacrifice once and for all for your sins. That gets you into Heaven, you say.

I say it gets me saved yes. "Hard-core-right-wing-militant-easy-believism-once-saved-always-saved" is my position

You are counting on being in the "Millennial Kingdom" because you are good enough.

Oh my! You have completely misread my position. I am only "good enough" when I am being obedient, faithful, diligent and (For those times when I am not) MERCIFUL!

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I suspect you are not claiming sinless perfection. So you are sinning, yet you don't think you are sinning enough to be excluded.

I don't claim sinless anything. I just believe that when faced with a temptation, there are real and dire consequences for not obeying my Lord.

So ultimately you seem to be basing your confidence on a subjective view of how well you are living the Christian life.

The works passages are subjective no matter how you apply them. How do you apply them? Peter denied Christ. Jesus said if you deny me, I'll deny you.

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 26:71-72
71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

Did Peter:

A) Lose his salvation.
B) Prove he was never saved in the first place.
C) Show he wasn't quite "really" saved yet so needed to get "really" saved by standing against temptation, being courageous, and confessing Christ, and obeying all the rest of Matthew 10. (WORKS)
D) Mess up and needed to repent before he inherited the full promise of Matt 10:33.
E) Do something that I have not thought of and would love to be enlightened about.


Lacy

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Peter did mess up, and yes, He did deny Christ. but we must remember that he repented.

And Repentence is not works.