#2 Two Salvations? #3 Kingdom Exclusion

[Lacy Evans]

Why don't you guys get serious--there are lost SOULS on their way to ETERNAL damnation.

Hebrews 10:26-31
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


How's this for serious?

The body of Christ is NOT divided into two groups.

You are right. There are at least five divisions.

Ten cities, Five cities, one city/no cities, few stripes, many stripes

Luke 12:43-48
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

But two major ones.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Well, Lacy, you just posted another verse that proves those who are saved will not be cast into outer darkness (I am surprised you highlighted the key part of the verse and still are too blind to see its truth).

being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him

If we are saved, we shall be saved from wrath. Christ casts the unsaved into outer darkness in His wrath and sore displeasure, yet Paul preached that those who are saved shall be saved from wrath. Shall be is future tense. This is after we shed this mortal coil. God will not be angry with us to the point of casting us away as the many scriptures that have been posted have proved over and over again.

And I beg to differ about the soul being alive. The Word of God says 'The soul that sinneth it shall die'. Because of Adam's disobedience death was pronounced on us all. A soul is spiritually dead without Christ.

 

[Hope of Glory]

You say saved people will be cast into outer darkness.

There is no assurance of salvation, if that is the case.

It is the unsaved cast into outer darkness, not the saved.

So, you are claiming that there are saved people in heaven!?!?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Since the Father is in Heaven (Matthew 6:9),
and since Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12),
and since to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8),


I can joyfully say that without any shadow of doubt, the saved on earth who have left this mortal coil are in that mansion prepared for them Jesus promised that is in the Father's house in Heaven.

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, you are claiming that there are saved people in heaven!?!?

I was so flabbergasted by your outrageous claim that I made a typo. Corrected here:

So, you are claiming that there are unsaved people in heaven!?!?

 

[Diggin in da Word]

That question is even more foolish than the last one.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, you seem to be claiming that unsaved people will be cast into outer darkness, and that's where saved people are thrown, then you must be claiming that unsaved people will be in heaven!

(I'm getting good at the Diggin method of debate! Use the preconceived conclusion as the "proof" for itself!)

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Shows how much ignorant you are of what the Word of God says.

In Heaven, there is no darkness, Jesus is Light and He is in Heaven.

The place of outer darkness cannot be in Heaven. And saved people certainly are not cast out of Heaven, nor are they cast into outer darkness.

 

[Linda64]

Well, you seem to be claiming that unsaved people will be cast into outer darkness, and that's where saved people are thrown, then you must be claiming that unsaved people will be in heaven!

(I'm getting good at the Diggin method of debate! Use the preconceived conclusion as the "proof" for itself!)

"Children (sons) of the Kingdom"

This phrase is found in two places in Matthew (8:12 and 13:38). In the first it refers to unsaved Jews who will be cast into outer darkness; in the second it refers to saved people who will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father (13:43).

The fact that Matthew 8:12 refers to the unsaved can in no way be invalidated by appealing to Matthew 13:38 -- for several reasons:

(1) Every single one of "the sons of the kingdom" in Matthew 13 is said to "shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father"; whereas it is "the sons of the evil one" who are all "cast" into the furnace of fire with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The reverse is true in Matthew 8:12 -- there it is "the sons of the kingdom" who are excluded from the kingdom, being "cast" out into outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These two passages simply cannot be harmonized apart from understanding the different meanings of "sons of the kingdom" in each passage.

(Note, by the way, that there is no middle ground here in the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares; it's either "shining forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" or being "cast into the furnace of fire" -- no middle ground of a supposed "outer darkness" separate from the "furnace of fire".)

(2) The "kingdom" referred to in Matthew 8:12 is NOT the same as the "kingdom" referred to in Matthew 13:38 (and 41). Thus this too shows that "sons of the kingdom" in each passage means two different things.

The kingdom spoken of in Matthew 8:12 is the prophesied, covenanted, glorious earthly kingdom of the heavens. The kingdom spoken of in Matthew 13:38 (and 41) was not even revealed at the time of Matthew 8:12. For Matthew 13:38 (and 41) refers to a hitherto unrevealed mystery-kingdom (Christendom) intervening from the rejection of the King by Israel until He returns in glory to this earth to establish that prophesied, covenanted, glorious earthly kingdom of the heavens of Matt. 8:12.

The "sons of the kingdom" in Matthew 13, therefore, speaks of those who are real/genuine ones in this mystery-kingdom; as the "sons of the evil one" speaks of those who are not real/genuine ones in the mystery-kingdom -- but false professors.

This mystery-"kingdom" is a peculiar sphere of profession (Christendom), consisting of both the genuine ("the sons of the kingdom") and the non-genuine ("the sons of the evil one"); i.e., the true and the false, the good and the bad; though it started out with only the genuine, yet certain men crept in unawares by the operations of the devil.

In Matthew 13 "the sons of the kingdom" are such (genuine ones) because they are the real believers, the good seed, properly belonging to and put ("sown") by the Lord into that peculiar sphere of profession/witness/testimony on earth, during the course of His national rejection and period of absence, until He returns in glory to establish His prophesied, covenanted, glorious earthly kingdom of the heavens (into which only the real will enter at its initial establishment, 8:12).

3) In addition to all this, Matthew 8:11-12 is elucidated by Luke 13:27-29, which thus defines for us who "the sons of the kingdom" are which are spoken of in Matthew 8:12.

"But I say unto you, that many shall come from the rising and setting sun, and shall lie down at table with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; but THE SONS OF THE KINGDOM shall be cast out into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 8:11-12).

"I tell you, I DO NOT KNOW YOU WHENCE YE ARE; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves cast out. And they shall come from east and west, and from north and south, and shall lie down at table in the kingdom of God" (Luke 13:27-29).

It is a strange objection coming from men such as Hodges & Dillow to argue the illegitimacy of "the sons of the kingdom" applying in two different senses in two different passages, especially when they themselves admit the validity of making such distinctions when they (albeit wrongly) apply "weeping and gnashing of teeth" to saved people in one set of passages and to unsaved people in another set of passages.

--James Ventilato

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/hodgesgn.htm

If you had read the other article I posted about "Outer Darkness", you would have seen that the saved are NOT cast into outer darkness. I guess your conscience is already "seared"--you will not hear the truth of God.

 

[J. Jump]

Linda it would be wise for you to study someone other than Middletown Bible Church or do you just copy and paste their stuff because it agrees with what you already believe?

Anywho there was a lot of twisting and dodging and rearranging and re-defining going on there. But of course your side doesn't do that just us word of the kingdom believers right?

Never heard anyone try to explain away the clear reading of Scripture quite like that before.

 

[Linda64]

Linda it would be wise for you to study someone other than Middletown Bible Church or do you just copy and paste their stuff because it agrees with what you already believe?

It would also be wise if you would study Scripture in context. Middletown Bible Church is doctrinally sound--and yes, I do agree with it.

Anywho there was a lot of twisting and dodging and rearranging and re-defining going on there. But of course your side doesn't do that just us word of the kingdom believers right?

You only say that because your conscience has been "seared" (1 Timoth 4:2) with the false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion--in only ten months time you have become totally brainwashed with this heretical doctrine. Your Kingdom Exclusion teaching is nothing but "Kingdom Delusion"

Never heard anyone try to explain away the clear reading of Scripture quite like that before.

That is only because you guys are the ones who are twisting/wresting the Scripture to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16) because you don't rightly divide the Word of Truth.

What other types of false teachings do you have in store for us "cherry pickers"?

 

[J. Jump]

It would also be wise if you would study Scripture in context.

Right back at ya!

Middletown Bible Church is doctrinally sound

Maybe in some areas, but not entirely.

You only say that because your conscience has been "seared" (1 Timoth 4:2) with the false doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion--in only ten months time you have become totally brainwashed with this heretical doctrine.

Well seeing as you have never met me and you don't know me, I find it very hard to believe that you are even remotely qualified to make that statement.

I just changed my belief system, so I would hardly call my conscience seared. What a joke. You all just continue in your nonsense statements, because you can't do anything else.

You don't know me, so don't pretend like you do!

That is only because you guys are the ones who are twisting/wresting the Scripture to your own destruction (2 Peter 3:16) because you don't rightly divide the Word of Truth.

:laugh: :laugh: - More accusations and still not proof that your beliefs are right.

What other types of false teachings do you have in store for us "cherry pickers"?

Well at least now you are admitting that you cherry pick to make your system work - or are you ? :laugh: :laugh:

Again I would encourage you, your husband, Middletown Bible or anyone else that has posted on this thread with "your" views to show me in the OT how your beliefs are correct.

We have been through 30 pages and none of you have stepped up to the plate with OT Scripture to show that all Christians will rule and reign and all Christians will be a part of the bride of Christ.

And again if you can't show it in the OT, then your NT understanding is incorrect, because what you find in the New the foundation will be found in the Old.

The word of the kingdom doctrine is consistent throughout Scripture, unlike your everyone's okay doctrine, but you continue to hold on to false church tradition if you want to.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Middletown may not be doctrinely sound in every teaching., but they certainly is doctrinely sound in their teachings against kingdom exclusion. Not one denomination is absolutely perfect in their teachings and beliefs.

We have all that we need to prove that the doctrine called kingdom exclusion is a heretical doctrine. We have the Word of God and when rightly divided, it shows where that teaching of kingdom exclusion comes from. Straight from the one who is the father of lies.

Brainwashed? Princeton University defines Brainwashed as

adj : subjected to intensive forced indoctrination resulting in the rejection of old beliefs and acceptance of new ones;

In light of that definition, I would certainly say that Linda64 is right on in saying you have been brainwashed.

I would encourage you to turn from that wicked doctrine of kingdom exclusion and turn once again to Christ.

 

[J. Jump]

I would encourage you to turn from that wicked doctrine of kingdom exclusion and turn once again to Christ.

Boy I would love to do that, but seeings how you haven't proven a single thing with the Word of God or otherwise I'll stick with the way Scripture "really" lays things out, not the way you and others "wished" they were laid out.

We have all that we need to prove that the doctrine called kingdom exclusion is a heretical doctrine.

THEN PROVE IT! You haven't to date and you are the VERY person that said you can not show how your beliefs line up with the OT, because you are the VERY person that said you can not find Christians in the OT.

You by your very own admission show that your belief system is flawed. If the teaching is found in the NT it will be found in some form or fashion in the OT as the OT is the ground work for the NT.

So if you have all that you need to prove this doctrine as heresy then by all means pony up to the table and let's see your proof, becuase you have just been playing games to date!

 

[Diggin in da Word]

We can't prove it to you Jason, Because to date, you have turned your eyes and heart away from the truth that has been presented time and time again in the scripture.

As Linda stated yesterday, your conscience has been seared and you will not accept the truth.

And no, it is not I who is playing games. It is you and all others who hold to that kingdom exclusion doctrine who are playing games with the Word of God. Turning the truth into a lie.

 

[Benjamin]

We have been through 30 pages and none of you have stepped up to the plate with OT Scripture to show that all Christians will rule and reign and all Christians will be a part of the bride of Christ. (up coming false premise)
And again if you can't show it in the OT, then your NT understanding is incorrect, because what you find in the New the foundation will be found in the Old.

Please show me in both the OT and the NT where the Bible says that ALL children are joint heirs and ALL children become adopted sons and that ALL children will rule and reign.

No one has been able to do it yet, so I look forward to your response.

Quote:
I know you will try to twist this, but this is Scripture plain and simple.
Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
Gal 3:26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

And yet no OT Scripture. (up coming false premise)…If your belief is going to pass the Scripture test then you are going to be able to find that truth in the OT as well. I await your response!

JJump,

You are obviously either confused as to what was revealed in the OT or you are deceitfully asking this question, either way in desperation to suggest a truth to your KE two salvation doctrine to include works into grace at all costs trying to win a debate; which is it?

Your point of finding “Christians” in the OT is absolutely groundless as the content of their faith was not belief in Christ dying on the cross; it was a mystery to the OT saints, and to suggest one can not find the full revelation of God’s glory in the OT doesn’t change the truth that we now see in this scripture offered this last time by webdog plainly showing it being fully revealed in the NT.

(1Co 10:1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

(1Co 10:2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

(1Co 10:3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

(1Co 10:4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


I have told you time and time again that the difference was in the ministration of the Spirit and all that were saved were saved by faith alone and given plenty of unanswered scripture; so instead of claiming victory on a false premise why don’t you show us where Abraham or any of the OT saints received their righteousness and lived with the Spirit by any other means than the promise in faith alone therby receiving grace by believing in faith what had been revealed to them?

BTW, please define “alone” ???

I honestly don’t know why I would further subject myself to answering anymore more of this kind of rhetoric, supplemented by the whining, insinuations and claiming that those that oppose the KE doctrine haven’t refuted or made any legitimate rebuttals to what has been posted, or haven’t even posted their own scriptural references, which is even a more ridiculous statement.

You need to take off those dancing shoes Elvis, Baptist aren’t suppose to be dancers!

 

[J. Jump]

We can't prove it to you, Jason. Because to date, you have turned your eyes and heart away from the truth that has been presented time and time again in the scripture.

That's just hogwash and a lame excuse not to step up to the plate. If you have the Truth then let's here it. But you better be willing to show how your beliefs square with other Scripture.

You do the VERY same thing that everyone else does and that is spout off about how wrong this doctrine is, throw out a couple of verses and then tell everybody that they need to switch beliefs because you say so with no interaction with Scripture.

I'm sorry I can't do that. If you have the Truth then let's hear it and let's see how that squares with EVERYTHING in the Bible. Like I've said it's very easy to prove just about anything we want to if we are willing to just take a verse here and there and not make sure that it coincides with the rest of Scripture.

And here we have another post by you and yet no reference to the OT. If you are correct which you keep insisting that you are then show me in the OT where you beliefs hold up in type, shadow or illustration. If you can't do that, and you haven't yet, then you need to re-think your belief system.

I do not have my conscience seared and of all people you and Linda try to use that lame excuse against it is me. I'm just months removed from changing my beliefs system.

I do not care if I have to eat crow and say this was the wrong thing and that I got suckered in. But I'm not going to eat crow and admit to a mistake just because someone says I need to.

I didn't buy into this doctrine that way and I'm certainly not going to buy into yours that way.

That's what I really don't understand about you all. You can't prove what you say is true, but yet you think you have some sort of special aurthority that people should just believe you becuase you say so. And I feel sorry for the people that actually buy into what you feed them just because you say so without thinking for themselves, but that is the world that we live in today. Everybody wants someone else to think for them.

Well sorry this guy doesn't fall into that category. I don't need you or anyone else to think for me. But if I am wrong I will listen and if you can prove your case then I will change. I've done it before and I have NO PROBLEM doing it again!

So step up to the plate!

As Linda stated yesterday, your conscience has been seared and you will not accept the truth.

Nonsense. And poor excuse for not proving your point!

 

[J. Jump]

You are obviously either confused as to what was revealed in the OT or you are deceitfully asking this question, either way in desperation to suggest a truth to your KE two salvation doctrine to include works into grace at all costs trying to win a debate; which is it?

Benjamin you just don't have a clue do you?

Why don't you at least try to understand something before you spout off.

I could care less about a winner and a loser. That statement right there shows you have no idea what you are talking about. This is not about winning and losing a debate. This is about Truth and what it is.

If you or anyone else can show in Scripture, both OT and NT that the word of the kingdom belief is incorrect then I will readily admit that I had believed a lie.

But neither you nor anyone else has been able to do that to date!

Your point of finding “Christians” in the OT is absolutely groundless

Yeah groundless to you because you can't prove "your" theology except in the NT, whereas the word of the kingdom is a doctrine that can be found in both just as it is supposed to be!

it was a mystery to the OT saints, and to suggest one can not find the full revelation of God’s glory in the OT doesn’t change the truth that we now see in this scripture offered this last time by webdog plainly showing it being fully revealed in the NT.

Of course how the Gentiles fit into the kingdom plan was a mystery to OT saints. It was a mystery to the NT saints as well until it was taught to Paul by the Lord Himself.

That doesn't prove your point. You are still trying to combine spiritual salvation with the kingdom message. Those two are not the same thing. They are different messages!

If you think those two messages are the same then you believe in a works based salvation and you can deny it all you want to, but the kingdom is tied to works and it can not be denied.

I have told you time and time again that the difference was in the ministration of the Spirit and all that were saved were saved by faith alone and given plenty of unanswered scripture;

Again you and I are talking about two different messages. You are trying to prove me wrong, but you aren't even on the same page. You are talking about apples and I am talking about oranges.

I honestly don’t know why I would further subject myself to answering anymore more of this kind of rhetoric, supplemented by the whining, insinuations and claiming that those that oppose the KE doctrine haven’t refuted or made any legitimate rebuttals to what has been posted, or haven’t even posted their own scriptural references, which is even a more ridiculous statement.

Again if you want to try and "prove" someone wrong you need to at least be dealing in the same subject area for starters!

You are talking about spiritual salvation and I'm talking about the kingdom. They are not the same message.

You need to take off those dancing shoes Elvis, Baptist aren’t suppose to be dancers!

I see you are into jokes instead of proving your points as well . . . oh well maybe one of these days someone that says they are right will actually be able to prove it?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

This verse and three others were posted a while back from the OT showing the Lord would not cast off His people. Of course, it was rejected as were the other three..

Psalm 94:14 14 For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6 that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

Paul also wrote in that same chapter that every believer has been justified, or declared righteous.

Therefore the justified believer is not unrighteous and will not be excluded from the kingdom.

Every believer will inherit the kingdom based solely on his righteous standing in Christ Jesus made possible only by the grace of God!