20/20 response

You'd might as well hang it up, Mexdeaf. If you try on BB to point out sin in the IFB camp, you're labeled a liar or told to shut up and go away. They ask for specifics, but when you do give the details, they scream "IT'S NOT MY CHURCH SO IT'S NOT MY PROBLEM."

There is no remorse; there is no sympathy. Only a desire to defend a false image of perfection. All the while the victims are still suffering, many in silence, while the IFB colleges train their preacher boys to dominate and dictate and teach the young women to be doormats. I guess the louder you can scream "We're INDEPENDENT" the crying voices of those who suffer won't bother them anymore.

 

AMEN and AMEN!!!
(You know what has me worried.... you are starting to think more and more like me!)

 

Oh Debbie. Do you have any idea the number of times my parents' abuse of me was ignored because people thought my sweet personable parents wouldn't possibly say and do the things I claimed they did? Why my mother cooked for every funeral and dinner the church had and my father went on visitation every Thursday night! They couldn't possibly be child abusers! My brother and I were just lying.

What reason we had to lie could never be explained, but that's what people believed for YEARS until my mother held a gun on my father and two of her brothers had to be called in to muscle her to the psych ward and they broke the silence. My father wanted to keep it quiet so badly that he expected me (pregnant at the time) to help him and only when I refused did he call on her brothers to help.

When good people do nothing, evil persists.

 

I believe and understand your report (that you wrote about in a different thread), so please bear with me: you, mexdef, tinytim, et al are posting in an IFB forum; therefore, you're associating yourselves with IFB people; therefore, you're implicitly providing support of IFB church-goers; and thus, you're implicitly supporting IFB churches; and therefore, you're guilty of accessory to the fact.

Huge unbelievable leap? I think so. But is it really any different than the guilt-by-association y'all are committing with your lumping together of all IFBers?

Do some IFB churches fit your description? Yes. Do they all? You tell me.

 

I don't have any personal experience with IFB and so hold back on making any judgments against them in the whole...and I do not come onto this forum very often, but I must say that considering what looks to be a great deal of animosity from the 3 posters on the top of this page, which I do feel I know something about, this has been...for lack of a better word... a "surprising" revelation for me to hear such strong tones about the group which seems to be very inclusive.

 

I was Southern Baptist and watched the church go liberal, then I headed into IFB and am very happy there. Our church philosophy is NOT doormatting women, we are to be loved as Christ loves the church...and that is scriptural. I have always worked out of the home, as many of the women in the church are also employed out of the home, and nobody looks down on that, and some women wear pants to church, we don't snub them (I wouldn't EVER wear pants to church, but that is MY preference) and we don't snub people who have tattoos or weird haircuts either. All are sinners, all can be saved by the grace of God!!!

I am sad that some had bad experiences with IFB, but again I say, how long ago and isn't it time you went forward instead of dwelling on it ?? Bitterness and resentment clogs up your testimony!!!! I had a bad experience with one Southern Baptist preacher, but I don't condemn him, I pray for him. Oh, if only that would be the case with the others here that have had issues with various things....

Please stop ridiculing IFB...I have a warm, loving, and vibrant church family.

 

Don, I was thinking about this last night and here's the best way I can describe that. Say you have a pit bull dog. You believe it's a nice dog and you love it like a member of your family. You might even have a friend or two who owns a "nice" pit bull.

Then a news story comes along telling of how children are being maimed and killed by pit bulls. LOTS of news stories pop up, and you find your friends have been bitten and are now afraid of all pit bulls as a result. Some were hurt by a beloved family pet and had to get rid of it. Although they believe you when you say your dog is nice and you've never had a problem, they are still afraid because they know there is a potential there for something to happen.

Do you (Not picking on you Don, especially, this is just for sake of illustration) as the pit bull owner tell people to "move on with life" or yell at them for daring to badmouth your precious pooch? Would that really make them more likely to come over and visit at your house? Or would you, in love for your friend, invite them over and promise to crate your dog until they get to know it PERSONALLY and learn to trust again?

What's more important, defending your innocent dog or lovingly trying to show people that not all pit bulls are bad?

 

Ma'am, you answered my question.

The other side of your analogy is: Is that person still talking about pit bulls in general, knowing that there's one, maybe even two, that aren't guilty of the behavior? In other words, I crate my dog, respecting the person's feelings...but then find out that they're still referring to all pit bulls as terrible monsters. I don't want to lose the friendship, so I'll continue to crate the dog; but friendship is supposed to be reciprocal; doesn't my friend understand how that makes me feel when I take steps to respect them, but then they continue to lump my dog in with all the rest?

 

Is that attitude restricted to just IFBs?

If not, don't you think you're over-generalizing again?

 

ABC, I honestly believe that there is sin in EVERY camp. For every incident of what a few label as "IFB abuse", I know of incidents in (to name a few) Southern Baptist, in Missionary Baptist, in Conservative Baptist. in Nazarene, in Lutheran, in Assembly of God, and yes, even in those milk toast non-denominational churches that don't take a doctrinal stance on anything.

It is a HUMAN problem, a HUMAN condition. We are all sinners, those who have trusted Christ are still sinners, but are now saved by the grace of GOD. The only perfect person to ever walk this earth was crucified for you and me....the rest are just attempting to walk with HIM. Some are more successful than others. Pray for the ones that are not. Don't hate them.

I pray for those who have harmed me...and an amazing thing happens, eventually the harm doesn't stay in the spotlight...soon it dims and becomes less painful, and then eventually, it is gone. The man that abused my Mother so horribly during the last few years of her life CONSUMED me for about 2 years, but when I started to pray for him, that anger went away. Try it, it works!!!

 

I don't "hate anyone" and I find it hurtful that you would assume I do hate and that I don't pray for those who have offended me. It also hurts to see the attitude that it's "not my church" which translates "not my problem so be quiet before my church's reputation gets hurt."

Yes, there is sin in many camps, not just IFB. No one here is doubting that.
But this discussion IS about what has happened in the IFB camp.

 

Honestly, Don, no they don't understand, as long as they are still trying to heal from their own wounds. When someone has experienced a lifetime of attack after attack, all they know and feel is their own pain and they want someone to stop it from happening again and again.

No, it's not fair to you or to others who may be trying to live godly who are not guilty. In theory, we should be able to separate one "dog" from the others, but in reality, that's kind of hard to do as long as the bad dogs continue to run at large and attack while their owners deny it and refuse to help the victims. After years of healing, therapy, etc. it will be possible to have the trust restored, but it won't happen overnight. In the meantime, we must be diligent to listen and watch and protect.

 

..to generalize and clump everybody in the same category just because of a few is pretty ignorant...people that do this are no less ignorant than those who want to make feeble minded stereotypes about different races..I'd love to invite all of you who like to run your mouths about "ALL IFBs" without having been to every IFB church out there to come to Long Beach, CA and attend my church for a month..then see if you are still talking...NO church is perfect..and unless you've been to EVERY IFB church in the world, you really have no right to say "all ifb's are this or do this or think this".. people just like to jump on bandwagons..and i've never really cared for followers..

Its a shame people abuse their power, authority, position etc. but you are going to see that in all church denominations, religions..

all in all, that 20/20 video was just trash..yeah its a horrible thing that those few went through..yes, it should have been handled differently...yes there are some pastors out there that have a machista view of women and their value..BUT NOT EVERY CHURCH IS LIKE THAT...

oh and btw.. our church had drama before..it wasn't covered up..the pastor is no longer there..

 

In the words of my military brethren: Heard and understood.

 

You have obvious pain in your posts...I don't know why you don't see that, sister. Your wounds appear to be very open still, as Tim's also appear to be, because whenever the topics of IFB come up, almost immediately we are reminded of how the singular churches of your youth hurt you. I don't know if you believe me, but when I pray for the needs in this forum, I pray for the softening of hearts towards others preferences.

I didn't say you hate them, I simply asked you NOT to hate them. You assume too much and it was not intended to judge you or humiliate you. I am sorry if you saw it that way. The only thing I am absolutely asserting is your obvious pain which has not healed.

in Christ
Debbie Mc

 

There has been a drama in every church I have been part of in my 58 years of life. And until 10 years ago, those dramas were in Southern Baptist Churches....a Pastor that ran off with a deacon's wife, a Pastor that liked to "touch" teenaged girls, using prayer as a means to do it, etc, etc. I personally experienced these things in a Southern Baptist church.
But I do not say that all Southern baptists are bad, no way!! They are simply sinners saved by grace, just like me.

Charles Stanley has a great devotion today. He talks about Jesus being perfect, but none of his followers are. Amen!

 

That’s an interesting scenario about pit bulls especially because I own, breed and show a rare breed and am often invited to dog shows were pit bulls are participating. Many times I have sat and talked to responsible pit bull owners and have discovered I face a lot of the same types of problems. Many people have never seen my breed and often ask me if they are a giant white pit bull. No, they are the fiercest hunting dog one could even imagine and I have seen one take down a mountain lion by his self, but they have a great reputation of coming home from the hunt and snuggling with children. Anyway let me tell you a little about the pit bull bred and owners.

1. About 95% of pit bulls are not even registered and cannot be distinguished between a purebred and a mutt on paper; registration of this breed is the worst in the nation but yet scores of people say they own a pit bull. Sorry, oh don’t make me laugh, no papers, no pit bull, they usually don’t even come close to fitting the correct standard!

2. To the trained eye many of the dogs that are called pit bulls do not fit the standard at all. The owners/breeders have often crossbred them to a larger dog to make them bigger and yet still call them a pit bull. As a matter of fact the people that are doing this wouldn’t know the correct standard, conformation and gait of a pit bull if their life depended on it and have no business breeding powerful dogs that are mutts and putting them out in the world.

3. Another trait of this breed is the type of people looking to own it. The typical would be owners are looking for a tough, mean, fighting dog to scare off intruders and protect their property and family. In their ignorance they do not want to pay for a purebred so they go to irresponsible backyard breeders looking for the biggest and badest they can get. These same people don’t have a clue how to raise a dominant and power dog responsibly and along with their dog become a menace to society, hence the bad reputation of the breed.

4. The root of the problem is not that the dog is a bad breed it is with the owners who are not educated properly in system of raising a powerful dog and will go right out and produce more mutts and pass them on to more ignorant people.

5. Typically, the bigger and tougher the dog looks the more proud the owner.

It seems to me the IFB has a powerful system to follow the commands of God, but with such power there is a lot of room for abuse and neglect. Maybe the odds are that you will get a lot of would be owners that are attracted to the strengths but do not know how to responsibly handle it and do not even have a good perception of what a good standard would even look like.

Now that I am into this scenario and rambling let me make a comparison to show how I protect my breed keep it from falling into the type of reputation a pit bull has.

1. People see my dogs and are really impressed with their stature. But, they typically ask little more than what they are and how much? They are a pure breed and this comes with papers, they are not to be mixed with other breeds, they have a good disposition but are very powerful and this requires a lot of responsibility in raising them to be social, a consideration few even ponder.

2. They are expensive ($2,500) for a reason, I health test them, I prove them in the show rings, and I very selectively breed for the proper standard; that’s why they are so impressive. I do not sell them to just anyone; if someone comes to purchase a dog asking about something like jaw strength they are immediately red flagged. I do not care if they come flashing the money, I am not obligated to sell to anyone. People have gotten very angry that I will not place such a responsibility on them before I see that they understand what is involved.

3. My dogs come with a lengthy contract. If I sell it as a pet (not to be bred to) it must be spayed or neutered before 8 months or I can take the dog back and you must legally agree these conditions. Further, I do not even provide registration papers until I have evidence of compliance in case someone disappears on me. I am always available and I expect you to keep in contact with me and let me know if you are having any issues with disposition. You must agree to properly socialize this dog, if you do not know how to do this you must take classes, and this dog is not to end up in a dog pound and I have it micro-chipped in my name and will be notified in this happens.

4. If you want to become a breeder and I sell this dog as breed/show quality you must health test it before breeding it, you must compare it to others in the breed by showing it, and you must understand the standard and choose an appropriate mate which will improve the quality of the breed. My kennel name will be on this dog and non-compliance to these rules can damage my reputation and gives me the right to take back ownership of the dog.

At first some might look at me as a legalist dog owner but I only want people to be able to live happily and responsibly with what I consider the best breed there is. The people who do purchase from me are lead down a good path of responsible dog ownership and respect my reasons for following the guidelines that I do. They end up appreciating that they own and live with a great dog that is held to higher standards.