20 minute vid argues that Rev 20 teaches annihilationism!

[Mark Corbett]

In the debate over the nature of hell, those who believe the Bible teaches eternal torment for the unsaved often point to Revelation 20:10 as one of the key supporting verses for their view. But I'm convinced Revelation 20 only supports eternal torment when either the context is ignored completely or the passage is interpreted backwards. I explain this in this 20 minute video:

What do you think?

 

[Van]

I think you should present what you are stating in your video in 4 for 5 sentences.

 

[Mark Corbett]

I think you should present what you are stating in your video in 4 for 5 sentences.

That's a reasonable request. Here I go (but the video is better):

1. Revelation mostly consists of an inspired report of a vision that God gave to John and this vision often uses symbols.
2. There is a pattern of interpreting symbols: something John sees in the vision is sometimes interpreted for us (i.e. incense in the prayers of the saints).
3. This same pattern applies in Revelation 20, where we are told that the lake of fire is the second death.
4. The correct way to interpret this is that the lake of fire represents the unsaved dying a second time.
5. The backwards and incorrect way to interpret this is that dying a second time actually means being tormented forever in a lake of fire.

There is a lot more detail and support for this in the video. It is a packed 20 minute video. But the above should be enough to help people get the gist of it if they do not want to watch the video. I suspect, however, that some of the arguments will be things that are addressed already in the video.

 

[Van]

That's a reasonable request. Here I go (but the video is better):

1. Revelation mostly consists of an inspired report of a vision that God gave to John and this vision often uses symbols.
2. There is a pattern of interpreting symbols: something John sees in the vision is sometimes interpreted for us (i.e. incense in the prayers of the saints).
3. This same pattern applies in Revelation 20, where we are told that the lake of fire is the second death.
4. The correct way to interpret this is that the lake of fire represents the unsaved dying a second time.
5. The backwards and incorrect way to interpret this is that dying a second time actually means being tormented forever in a lake of fire.

There is a lot more detail and support for this in the video. It is a packed 20 minute video. But the above should be enough to help people get the gist of it if they do not want to watch the video. I suspect, however, that some of the arguments will be things that are addressed already in the video.

Thank you, and I certainly agree that the Lake of Fire imposes the second death upon the lost. Just how long the lost suffer before their end does not seem to be made clear by the text, but the duration of dying is probably not eternal, as that would constitute being alive forever.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Thank you, and I certainly agree that the Lake of Fire imposes the second death upon the lost. Just how long the lost suffer before their end does not seem to be made clear by the text, but the duration of dying is probably not eternal, as that would constitute being alive forever.

I agree. The process of dying is not said to be instant nor is it said to be easy. There is a lot of room for degrees of punishment in the process, although we should not lose track of the fact that the punishment is death itself, the loss of eternal life.

 

[37818]

Revelation 14:,9-11,". . . If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. . . ."

 

[Mark Corbett]

Revelation 14:,9-11,". . . If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. . . ."

What do you believe Revelation 14:9-11 teaches? You quoted this passage without any comment or explanation.

 

[37818]

What do you believe Revelation 14:9-11 teaches? You quoted this passage without any comment or explanation.

It teaches eternal torment. The written word of God nowhere teaches annihiation. Another example, Revelation 20:10, ". . . And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Mark Corbett]

It teaches eternal torment. The written word of God nowhere teaches annihiation. Another example, Revelation 20:10, ". . . And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Did you watch the video in the opening post? The whole point is that Revelation 20:10 does not teach eternal torment for people.

 

[SavedByGrace]

In Jude 7 we read, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". Which was written thousands of years after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha, and yet Jude says, "υπεχουσαι", which is the Greek verb in the present tense, "continue to suffer". These were clealy not "annihilated". Then we have in Revelation 19:20, "And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone". This is before the 1000 Year Reign. And, in chapter 20 we read, "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (verse 10). Where the use of βασανισθησονται, which is in the plural number, shows that 1000 years later, when the Devil was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, both the beast and false prophet were still there! Again, "annihilation", cannot be used for this.

 

[37818]

Did you watch the video in the opening post? The whole point is that Revelation 20:10 does not teach eternal torment for people.

Two things. To watch the video. That you claim that it to teach Revelation does not treach what it explicitly does teach. So I will watch it when I make some time for me to do so. I guess I will just have to wait to find out why you couldn't give a simple proof.

 

[Mark Corbett]

In Jude 7 we read, "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". Which was written thousands of years after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrha, and yet Jude says, "υπεχουσαι", which is the Greek verb in the present tense, "continue to suffer". These were clealy not "annihilated".

Jude 7 stays that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example. An example is not effective if people do not know about it. What Jude's readers know about Sodom and Gomorrah comes from Genesis. There we see that these cities were completely destroyed. There is nothing in the story at all that even hints at the people continuing to suffer in fire. So that would be a really terrible example of eternal torment.

As for the use of the present tense here, I think the explanation may be that this example is set forth in the historical account found in Genesis. The inhabitants suffered the punishment of eternal fire at the same time as the events in the historical account.

The fire is eternal not because what it consumes remains forever (Sodom and Gomorrah did not), but because the source of the fire is God, who is eternal. I explain this in some depth in this blog post:

Eternal Fire, The Sun, and Solar Flares (why eternal fire does not mean eternal torment)

 

[atpollard]

Gehenna (the valley of burning trash right outside the walls of Jerusalem) … a good visual image for First Century Jews of Eternal Burning Torment in Hell.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Jude 7 stays that Sodom and Gomorrah serve as an example. An example is not effective if people do not know about it. What Jude's readers know about Sodom and Gomorrah comes from Genesis. There we see that these cities were completely destroyed. There is nothing in the story at all that even hints at the people continuing to suffer in fire. So that would be a really terrible example of eternal torment.

As for the use of the present tense here, I think the explanation may be that this example is set forth in the historical account found in Genesis. The inhabitants suffered the punishment of eternal fire at the same time as the events in the historical account.

The fire is eternal not because what it consumes remains forever (Sodom and Gomorrah did not), but because the source of the fire is God, who is eternal. I explain this in some depth in this blog post:

Eternal Fire, The Sun, and Solar Flares (why eternal fire does not mean eternal torment)

you have FAILED to show from the Bible, not personal opinion, that what I have said to be wrong. These verses and others, show that your belief is heretical, and from the devil!

 

[Mark Corbett]

Gehenna (the valley of burning trash right outside the walls of Jerusalem) … a good visual image for First Century Jews of Eternal Burning Torment in Hell.

I don't think the common idea that Gehenna referred to a valley of burning trash outside of Jerusalem during Jesus' time on earth has good historical support. But even if it did, trash is burned up to ashes, it is not tormented.

 

[Mark Corbett]

you have FAILED to show from the Bible, not personal opinion, that what I have said to be wrong. These verses and others, show that your belief is heretical, and from the devil!

Ironically, it is only your "personal opinion" that I have failed. More importantly, it saddens me that you use the term "heretical." That term should be reserved for the most serious doctrinal errors. By using that term, if you are mistaken about the seriousness of this doctrine or about the doctrine itself, you are not merely mistaken but guilty of slander and bearing false witness against a brother. Those are serious sins. I discuss the overuse of "heresy" accusations by some Christians in this blog post:

Heresy and Slander: Immune System Disorders in the Body of Christ

The blog post is summarized in this graphic:

 

[MB]

Mark:
What difference does this idea make? . If you go to hell you will not like it, Either way tormented day and night or annihilation really isn't all that important, because in both cases you will be separated from God. Man would rather be annihilated because this means an end of punishment. There is no end to eternity..
MB

 

[SavedByGrace]

Ironically, it is only your "personal opinion" that I have failed. More importantly, it saddens me that you use the term "heretical." That term should be reserved for the most serious doctrinal errors. By using that term, if you are mistaken about the seriousness of this doctrine or about the doctrine itself, you are not merely mistaken but guilty of slander and bearing false witness against a brother. Those are serious sins. I discuss the overuse of "heresy" accusations by some Christians in this blog post:

Heresy and Slander: Immune System Disorders in the Body of Christ

The blog post is summarized in this graphic:

Hi Mark, I have seen you on here a number of times, pushing hard your personal belief on "Annihilation". Very sadly you have been deceived by the devil into believing his LIES on this. This is one of the greatest HERESIES in the Church from the earliest of times, and like the other HERESY known as "Atheism", is becoming more popular today, as the end of this world draws to a close, and The Lord Jesus Christ Returns. There is only one place for the origin of this teaching, and that is the father of LIES, the devil himself. Who has also deceived many millions onto another FALSE teaching, which is that he himself does not even exist!

 

[thomas15]

I don't think the common idea that Gehenna referred to a valley of burning trash outside of Jerusalem during Jesus' time on earth has good historical support. But even if it did, trash is burned up to ashes, it is not tormented.

I learned from college professors, who are of the church of Chas Darwin, that there actually are life forms, organisms that live and thrive in the frozen solid artic waters and there are others in waters that are heated to a very high temperature and containing toxic (to mammals) elements from magma seeping from below the earths crust. And still others in oxygen depleted environments that would cause humans to die instantly if exposed to that environment.

Of course I'm a rube of sorts but I read this:

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:10

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15

The devil and beast and false prophet tormented forever in the lake of fire. Joining them are the unbelievers.

A 30 second exposition that seems simple enough.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Either way tormented day and night or annihilation really isn't all that important

why not? It IS important, because eternal punishmeant and NOT annihilation, that is ONLY Taught in the Bible!