20 minute vid argues that Rev 20 teaches annihilationism!

[Van]

What part of "no rest" means the torment ends?

The issue is the duration of "no rest" not the condition during.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I completely agree with you on ALL OF THE OTHER VERSES that far outweigh one verse in Matthew 10:28, but ... come on chief ... be honest about what Matthew actually WROTE!

I may be a complete HACK when it comes to Koine Greek (and freely admit it), but is EVERY English translator that has ever lived and every team that has translated that verse also a hack at Koine Greek? Or just maybe, my point that "destroy" really means "destroy" should be taken just a bit more seriously.

What is there to FEAR the Lord if annihilation is their final fate? This argument is complete nonsense

 

[Mark Corbett]

I completely agree with you on ALL OF THE OTHER VERSES that far outweigh one verse in Matthew 10:28, but ... come on chief ... be honest about what Matthew actually WROTE!

I may be a complete HACK when it comes to Koine Greek (and freely admit it), but is EVERY English translator that has ever lived and every team that has translated that verse also a hack at Koine Greek? Or just maybe, my point that "destroy" really means "destroy" should be taken just a bit more seriously.

There are quite a few other verses besides Matthew 10:28 where the plain, straightforward meaning supports conditional immortality. Here is one (consider what we mean when we speak of a person perishing and the fact that these people who perish do not have eternal life):

ESV John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Mark Corbett]

What is there to FEAR the Lord if annihilation is their final fate? This argument is complete nonsense

It seems like nonsense to me to say that annihilation is not a fearful thing.

If you want some details, here is a relevant blog post:

Does annihilationism make the threat of hell meaningless?

Here's an image I made to go with the blog post:

 

[37818]

@atpollard
The word in Matthew 10:28 translated "destroy" is the same word translated "perish" or "lost " The grammar is deferent. John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 4:3.

 

[atpollard]

The word in Matthew 10:28 translated "destroy" is the same word translated "perish" or "lost " The grammar is deferent. John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 4:3.

I agree ... and yet so many translations chose "destroy" when translating that verse.

What does it mean (in scripture) to "kill" a soul? Why did they not say "kill the body and the soul"?
One should at least acknowledge the word choice of all those translators.

(I can't believe I am forced to defend "annihilation" just to get my own side to address scripture honestly.)

I would rather be wrong while seeking TRUTH than win an argument by deceit.

 

[Mark Corbett]

The Greeks, speaking Greek and not English (obviously), did not have the English word "annihilate." But if they were to write about the possibility of the whole person, body and soul, ceasing to have any conscious existence at some point (which is what I and other conditionalists mean by annihilationism), what word would they use? They did discuss this topic, and they used several words to refer to annihilation. One of the words they used most often was apollumi, which is translated "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 and "perish" in John 3:16. That should count as some evidence for annihilationism. Evidence, with quotes and sources, for this can be found in my video on apollumi.

 

[37818]

I agree ... and yet so many translations chose "destroy" when translating that verse.

What does it mean (in scripture) to "kill" a soul? Why did they not say "kill the body and the soul"?
One should at least acknowledge the word choice of all those translators.

(I can't believe I am forced to defend "annihilation" just to get my own side to address scripture honestly.)

I would rather be wrong while seeking TRUTH than win an argument by deceit.

Well I hold what might be understood as third view. I understand that both the body and soul die in the second death. That it is not annihiation but eternal torment. Jesus in His soul died on the cross while fully conscious fully paying for our sins. And then physically died for the bodily resurrection. Atonement completed, John 19:28, then declaring it and then physically died, John 19:30.

 

[Mark Corbett]

Well I hold what might be understood as third view. I understand that both the body and soul die in the second death. That it is not annihiation but eternal torment. Jesus in His soul died on the cross while fully conscious fully paying for our sins. And then physically died for the bodily resurrection. Atonement completed, John 19:28, then declaring it and then physically died, John 19:30.

The Bible never says anything like "Jesus in His soul died." In fact, the Bible focuses on the fact that Jesus was put to death in His body:

CSB17 Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by his physical body through his death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before him--
(Col. 1:22 CSB17)

CSB17 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree; so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
(1 Pet. 2:24 CSB17)

CSB17 Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks, broke it, gave it to them, and said, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." (Lk. 22:19 CSB17)

When it comes to the atonement, the Bible focuses relentlessly on what happened to the body of Christ and it never speaks of the soul of Jesus dying. Your "third view" seems to be just the opposite of the biblical view.

 

[MB]

[

That's a good question. Of course, in general we should want to understand all that the Bible teaches as accurately as possible.

I do not believe that eternal torment vs. conditional immortality should be treated as a primary level issue like the Trinity, salvation by faith in Jesus, or the fact that Jesus really rose from the dead. But I do think it is important to discuss it.

Quite a few people have mentioned the doctrine of eternal torment as part of the reason they left the Christian faith or reject it.
That is not a reason that eternal torment is not true. But it is a reason that it is worth discussing, and if the Bible doesn't teach it (and I'm convinced it does not), we could remove one reason for some people rejecting Christianity. This is one reason it is important, but there are others.

So you don't like the consequences. Life is like that there are consequences. Miss the mark and you loose. What you want is a free ticket.
There is only one requirement for Salvation. That is that you repent and believe.. If you are doing this then you are saved and do not have to worry about the consequences. You still need to confess and repent. Yet I have been saved for over 60 years and the truth is I still sin. Now you might think this isn't true but there is not one man on earth that is sinless. I die to sin daily Just as Paul said in his letters.. Every true Christian will tell you the same. No need to worry about consequences Christ took care of all of them on the cross.
MB

 

[atpollard]

Well I hold what might be understood as third view. I understand that both the body and soul die in the second death. That it is not annihiation but eternal torment. Jesus in His soul died on the cross while fully conscious fully paying for our sins. And then physically died for the bodily resurrection. Atonement completed, John 19:28, then declaring it and then physically died, John 19:30.

While not really the place, I have some biological, metaphysical and semantic problems comprehending your worldview of human beings. Traditional semantics:

Body:

we are an organic machine that processes food and air to permit locomotion. It is a trait shared with dogs and worms and trees. Sooner or later, this biological machine stops functioning and becomes “worm food”. The body allows men to “live”.​

Mind:

within this body is a network of neurons that engage in chemical reactions and store and transmit electrical impulses. While dogs and worms also have brains, the human brain is unique in its ability to create self-awareness and exhibit creativity through communication and art. The mind enables men to “think”. When the body dies, the mind stops thinking.​

Soul:

A theoretical and metaphysical construct containing the “essence” of who we are … our personality and consciousness … that continues to exist after the body dies and the electro-chemical processes of our mind cease.
​

While I acknowledge that you have some different view of the human construct, I am at a loss to follow your brief explanations and reconcile them with basic biology and the normal definition of “SOUL”.

 

[37818]

While not really the place, I have some biological, metaphysical and semantic problems comprehending your worldview of human beings. Traditional semantics:

Body:

we are an organic machine that processes food and air to permit locomotion. It is a trait shared with dogs and worms and trees. Sooner or later, this biological machine stops functioning and becomes “worm food”. The body allows men to “live”.​

Mind:

within this body is a network of neurons that engage in chemical reactions and store and transmit electrical impulses. While dogs and worms also have brains, the human brain is unique in its ability to create self-awareness and exhibit creativity through communication and art. The mind enables men to “think”. When the body dies, the mind stops thinking.​

Soul:

A theoretical and metaphysical construct containing the “essence” of who we are … our personality and consciousness … that continues to exist after the body dies and the electro-chemical processes of our mind cease.
​

While I acknowledge that you have some different view of the human construct, I am at a loss to follow your brief explanations and reconcile them with basic biology and the normal definition of “SOUL”.

I have long held to the mortality of the soul, Ezekiel 18:4, James 5:20. And the eternal suffering of the lost.

 

[atpollard]

I have long held to the mortality of the soul, Ezekiel 18:4, James 5:20. And the eternal suffering of the lost.

I know.
From traditional definitions, dead souls leave humans with no afterlife.

(hence my conundrum)

 

[37818]

I know.
From traditional definitions, dead souls leave humans with no afterlife.

(hence my conundrum)

The soul does not die when the body dies, Matthew 10:28. Luke 16:19-31 is a true story. I have held these beliefs along with my belief in the mortality of the soul. This was all part of a study done by me in 1968.

 

[37818]

The Bible never says anything like "Jesus in His soul died." In fact, the Bible focuses on the fact that Jesus was put to death in His body:

CSB17 Colossians 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by his physical body through his death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before him--
(Col. 1:22 CSB17)

CSB17 1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree; so that, having died to sins, we might live for righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
(1 Pet. 2:24 CSB17)

CSB17 Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks, broke it, gave it to them, and said, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." (Lk. 22:19 CSB17)

When it comes to the atonement, the Bible focuses relentlessly on what happened to the body of Christ and it never speaks of the soul of Jesus dying. Your "third view" seems to be just the opposite of the biblical view.

There is Isaiah 53:9-12, ". . . And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

 

[Mark Corbett]

There is Isaiah 53:9-12, ". . . And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Thanks for sharing that passage. My first thought is that sometimes the word translated "soul" simply means "life," as opposed to the immaterial part of a person. However, that passage does give some support to part of your view and I will think about it more. It does not change the NT focus on the physical, bodily death of Christ in the atonement He made for our sins.

 

[1689Dave]

Why would anyone create a doctrine from an obscure book of symbols when Jesus teaches the exact opposite in the gospels? This is the problem with all millennial theories and now this on top of it.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Why would anyone create a doctrine from an obscure book of symbols when Jesus teaches the exact opposite in the gospels? This is the problem with all millennial theories and now this on top of it.

This thread is teaching and promoting HERESY, which is 100% AGAINST what the Lord Jesus, Who Spoke on "hell" more than anyone else!

 

[Mark Corbett]

This thread is teaching and promoting HERESY, which is 100% AGAINST what the Lord Jesus, Who Spoke on "hell" more than anyone else!

Jesus did speak about hell. I believe hell is real and very serious. I have made sacrifices and faced danger in order to try to reach the unreached so that they can have eternal life and not be thrown into hell. The question is, what did Jesus say God would do to people in hell? The answer:

ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus did speak about hell. I believe hell is real and very serious. I have made sacrifices and faced danger in order to try to reach the unreached so that they can have eternal life and not be thrown into hell. The question is, what did Jesus say God would do to people in hell? The answer:

ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

For me, the issue comes down to one of "CAN a soul be destroyed?"
(Which is ultimately a metaphysical question answerable only by God ... leaving us to search for crumbs He may have left in His Holy Word.)

• Is it possible that God who created souls that survive beyond this mortal body can also destroy those same souls? ... Yes, nothing is impossible for God.
• Is it possible that when God "breathes" HIS breath into man and we become a living soul in HIS IMAGE, that part of the Imageo Dei is an eternal and indestructible soul? ... Yes, that is also possible.
• Which is TRUE? ... That is known with certainty only by God, so we must glean in His field for droppings that He left behind for us in His Word. Whether TORMENT or DESTRUCTION, the message of God placed "Front-and-Center" is not about HELL, rather it is about Christ and ETERNAL LIFE. Eternal Life is not a concept that God left ambiguous, because LIFE is what God really wanted us to know about.

Shalom (Peace and well being)