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SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Jesus did speak about hell. I believe hell is real and very serious. I have made sacrifices and faced danger in order to try to reach the unreached so that they can have eternal life and not be thrown into hell. The question is, what did Jesus say God would do to people in hell? The answer:

ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

WHY should ANY sinner who hates the Lord, and does as they like, knowing that they will be completely made extinct after they die, FEAR the Lord??? Your thinking is pure humanism, and GRAVE ERROR!
 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
For me, the issue comes down to one of "CAN a soul be destroyed?"

Doesn't Jesus unambiguously teach that God can destroy souls in Matthew 10:28?

ESV Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
WHY should ANY sinner who hates the Lord, and does as they like, knowing that they will be completely made extinct after they die, FEAR the Lord??? Your thinking is pure humanism, and GRAVE ERROR!

I answered basically the same question from you in comment #44. You are repeating the question without interacting with my answer. That doesn't help to move the conversation forward.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing that passage. My first thought is that sometimes the word translated "soul" simply means "life," as opposed to the immaterial part of a person. However, that passage does give some support to part of your view and I will think about it more. It does not change the NT focus on the physical, bodily death of Christ in the atonement He made for our sins.
Jesus had completed the atonement on the cross prior to His physical death, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Meaning "paid in full," which Jesus said before He physically died, "It is finished," in John 19:30.
 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
Jesus had completed the atonement on the cross prior to His physical death, John 19:28, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." Meaning "paid in full," which Jesus said before He physically died, "It is finished," in John 19:30.

When Jesus says "It is finished," probably seconds before His death, I do not believe He was saying the atonement was already complete and that His death was not the atonement. I believe He meant that it is finished with His death. He obviously could not wait until after His last breath to say that! The Bible focuses on His death for us:

ESV Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

ESV 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

ESV 1 Thessalonians 5:10 who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
That's a reasonable request. Here I go (but the video is better):

1. Revelation mostly consists of an inspired report of a vision that God gave to John and this vision often uses symbols.
2. There is a pattern of interpreting symbols: something John sees in the vision is sometimes interpreted for us (i.e. incense in the prayers of the saints).
3. This same pattern applies in Revelation 20, where we are told that the lake of fire is the second death.
4. The correct way to interpret this is that the lake of fire represents the unsaved dying a second time.
5. The backwards and incorrect way to interpret this is that dying a second time actually means being tormented forever in a lake of fire.

There is a lot more detail and support for this in the video. It is a packed 20 minute video. But the above should be enough to help people get the gist of it if they do not want to watch the video. I suspect, however, that some of the arguments will be things that are addressed already in the video.

Have you never noted how the Lord, when expounding his parables, corresponds each element to an interpretation (ex: the chaff = the wicked) but never the fire into which the chaff goes? Do you know why? Because the fire is fire.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The eternality of punishment of the unsaved wicked is seen in more Scriptures than the Rev. Jesus mentions more than once that their worm doesn't die & their fire is not quenched. Why would that matter if the wicked are to be annihilated? Why would God keep an eternal lake of fire going?

Annihilation is a tool people use as an excuse to not come to Jesus., I. E. "Why not have fun now? I'm gonna be zapped when it's all over & it'll be as it was before I was born-no pain, no nothing!"
 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
Have you never noted how the Lord, when expounding his parables, corresponds each element to an interpretation (ex: the chaff = the wicked) but never the fire into which the chaff goes? Do you know why? Because the fire is fire.

I have no problem with the fire being fire. The question is: what does the fire do? The Bible's answer is that it burns up the wicked, consumes them, and turns them into ashes. This short video contains relevant verses:

 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
The eternality of punishment of the unsaved wicked is seen in more Scriptures than the Rev. Jesus mentions more than once that their worm doesn't die & their fire is not quenched. Why would that matter if the wicked are to be annihilated? Why would God keep an eternal lake of fire going?

Annihilation is a tool people use as an excuse to not come to Jesus., I. E. "Why not have fun now? I'm gonna be zapped when it's all over & it'll be as it was before I was born-no pain, no nothing!"

Does Jesus mention the worms and fire more than once? You might want to check that.

But more importantly, the one time He does mention it (Mark 9:48), He is quoting from the last verse in Isaiah. In that verse we see that the worms and fire are consuming dead bodies, not tormenting living people.

ESV Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Does Jesus mention the worms and fire more than once? You might want to check that.

But more importantly, the one time He does mention it (Mark 9:48), He is quoting from the last verse in Isaiah. In that verse we see that the worms and fire are consuming dead bodies, not tormenting living people.

ESV Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Each of your 5 points, as worded in your post, argued for the symbolism of fire.
If you think the fire is literal, at least we can move past that point.
 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
Each of your 5 points, as worded in your post, argued for the symbolism of fire.
If you think the fire is literal, at least we can move past that point.

More specifically, I argue that the lake of fire symbolizes something - namely dying a second time. That does not rule out literal fire being involved in the final judgment. I think there probably is. Might it be in the form of a lake? That's less certain. Other images speak of a fiery furnace. The more important thing is what the lake of fire means. Just like there could be actual incense burning in Heaven (not sure about that), but the important thing is that the incense seen in John's vision stands for the prayers of God's people.
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
More specifically, I argue that the lake of fire symbolizes something - namely dying a second time. That does not rule out literal fire being involved in the final judgment. I think there probably is. Might it be in the form of a lake? That's less certain. Other images speak of a fiery furnace. The more important thing is what the lake of fire means. Just like there could be actual incense burning in Heaven (not sure about that), but the important thing is that the incense seen in John's vision stands for the prayers of God's people.

Is the fire strictly symbolic, yes or no? Bc I'm confused now.
 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
Is the fire strictly symbolic, yes or no? Bc I'm confused now.

I don't know if the fire is strictly symbolic, and my arguments do not depend on me knowing that. What I'm confident of is that the lake of fire in John's vision is a symbolic image telling us that the unsaved will die a second time.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
When Jesus says "It is finished," probably seconds before His death, I do not believe He was saying the atonement was already complete and that His death was not the atonement. I believe He meant that it is finished with His death. He obviously could not wait until after His last breath to say that! The Bible focuses on His death for us:

ESV Romans 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

This is like the virgin birth. One does not need to know about it in order to be saved. But the saved knowing about it will not deny it.

In John 19:28 it says, ". . . Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, . . ." That word is the very word Jesus said translated "It is finished" before He physically died. And was what the text says He knew. The Hebrew in Isaiah 53:9 says His deaths plural. Romans 5:8 refers to the death He knew He had already completed in John 19:28. Believe what you want. This is not something to be just made up. Isaiah 53:10.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Does Jesus mention the worms and fire more than once? You might want to check that.

But more importantly, the one time He does mention it (Mark 9:48), He is quoting from the last verse in Isaiah. In that verse we see that the worms and fire are consuming dead bodies, not tormenting living people.

ESV Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Those will be the BODIES, not the SOULS. Of course, their mortal bodies will be destroyed, as will ours.
And in Mark 9, Jesus repeats it 3 times, mentioning HELL FIRE. (For the saved, any missing body parts will be replaced on their new bodies.)

The original gehenna was the garbage dump outside Jerusalem which was kept ablaze to hold the odor down & reduce the volume of the waste. This fire was so large that rain couldn't quench it. But, the whole thing didn't burn at once. Animal carcasses were dumped there, and also the bodies of criminals. When those bodies didn't burn, there were maggots (worms) present til the bodies were consumed.Flies have a quick life cycle, so it appeared the worms never died, as they were being constantly replenished. But that fire eventually burned itself out, of course, when Jerusalem was destroyed, & the maggots disappeared when they ran outta food. I believe men back then knew that fire would eventually end.

But more than one verse of Scripture says the fire of hell is eternal. He told Peter it was originally created for the devil & his angels, which implies it's for punishment. God does nothing uselessly, so why would He make the fire of hell eternal except for eternal punishment?

I, personally, don't plan to find out firsthand how eternal the souls of the lost are, but by teaching a false doctrine, YOU are risking making an awful discovery for yourself !
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Two things. The death of the body does not kill the soul. The soul is mortal. Ezekiel 18:4, James 5:19-20, Matthew 10:28. What does not die are the individuals worm, Mark 9:48. And that of Christ's, Psalms 22:6, Psalms 22:1. Isaiah 53:10, Romans 5:8.
 
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timtofly

Well-Known Member
That's a reasonable request. Here I go (but the video is better):

1. Revelation mostly consists of an inspired report of a vision that God gave to John and this vision often uses symbols.
2. There is a pattern of interpreting symbols: something John sees in the vision is sometimes interpreted for us (i.e. incense in the prayers of the saints).
3. This same pattern applies in Revelation 20, where we are told that the lake of fire is the second death.
4. The correct way to interpret this is that the lake of fire represents the unsaved dying a second time.
5. The backwards and incorrect way to interpret this is that dying a second time actually means being tormented forever in a lake of fire.

There is a lot more detail and support for this in the video. It is a packed 20 minute video. But the above should be enough to help people get the gist of it if they do not want to watch the video. I suspect, however, that some of the arguments will be things that are addressed already in the video.
God created souls to never die. Many complain about the current conditions. Life is not ideal. Even though many pretend it can be. Why does created life just think they can cease to exist? They cannot even manage a sin nature and a dead decaying body. Trying to escape existence is futile.
 

Mark Corbett

Active Member
God created souls to never die. Many complain about the current conditions. Life is not ideal. Even though many pretend it can be. Why does created life just think they can cease to exist? They cannot even manage a sin nature and a dead decaying body. Trying to escape existence is futile.

Where in the Bible does it teach that all people (including the unrighteous) have souls that will never die (that are immortal, that have eternal life)?
 
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