2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Ok Might as well make that "here" on this thread as well.


Let me make this simple using the same example of Matt 24 so you see it in the same terms you used and the difference shows up loud and clear.

Take a look at these charts, and notice the "Sequence" is the same in both charts and follow the exact sequence of the Feast days, but that would only be important if you understood the rituals of the feast days, which are "FORSHADOWS" of the Events in the NT.


FEAST DAYS.

LAST THREE DAYS.

The Trib is Israel's "Day of Atonement" for rejecting Jesus, but Jesus has already made atonement for the church, (believers) therefore we "PASSOVER" the trib.

As the "Passover lamb", Jesus only protects the "FIRSTBORN", or "FIRSTFRUIT". (believers)

 

[BobRyan]

The chart you gave is doing a hatchet job on the 490 year timeline given in Daniel 9. A timeline that STARTS around 483 years BEFORE the ministry of Christ and extends right through to the crucifixion of Christ as IT POINTS out "and THEN shall the Messiah be Cut off in the midst of the week"

Why would we want to continue with such an abuse of the text instead of just LEAVING the 490 years alone as you already do with 483 years of that single 490 year timeline?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen Brother Me4Him on the FEAST DAYS types of history chart!

Amen Brother Me4Him on the LAST THREE DAYS chart!

These charts are right on what the Bible says! Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tamborine Lady: //There will be a rapture as described in Thess//

Would that be 1 Thess chapters 4&5 or the one in 2 Thess 2:1-4?

Tamborine Lady: //There will be a rapture as described in Thess.
It has nothing to do with a 7th year that has been
floating in space for 2000 years.//

Let me remind you Sister Tamborine Lady, we are each accountable
for every idle world we say. I think it is dangerous to
disrespect the ETERNAL PLAN of God with a flippant 'floating
in space for 2000 years". Quite frankly that delay between
the 69th week of Daniel and the 70th week of Daniel is YOUR SALVATION.
That is, were it not for what you flippantly describe as
"'a 7th year that has been floating in space for 2000 years"
you would not be saved.

Caveat: as always, somebody with a twisted event horizion will
turn what i said. I did NOT say 'lack of flippancy saves you'.
Jesus Saves - period, end of sentence. Nothing else does and your
misunderstanding of what Ii'm saying does NOT give anybody liberty
to say I misrepresented salvation. What i am saying is that
the gap between Daniel's 69th and 70th year is NOT an intercalculated
oops of God - that Gap is GOD'S PLAN 'A'. That gap is what allows
us Gentiles to be saved. Amen!

Tamborine lady://There will be an antichrist. He has nothing
to do with Dan 9-26 & 27.//

Actually both the Messiah and the Anti-Messiah is spoken of in
Daniel 9:26-27. The assignment of resolution to 'he' spoken twice
in Daniel 9:26 makes the difference between the hope of rescue when
Jesus brings a bit of Hell to earth and TOTAL DISPAIR.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tamborine Lady: //I'm pretty sure you are still mixing scriptures
willy nilly. But you need
to explain your graph, because it jumps
from here to there and back.//

I think you are playing a game of "damned if you do; damned if
you don't' with Brother Me4Him. If he explains his drawing,
then he isn't using scripture. If he adheeres to the Biblical
injucntion to explain scripture with scripture then he is
guilty of 'mixing scirptures willy nilly'. Instead of attacking
him with a game, how about getting down to business and SEE if
God has a message for you through Brother Me4Him.

//Rev 13-5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things
and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue
forty and two months.

//That is not the same as Dan 9-26 and 27.//

Actually it is the same. In the middle of the week the
"prince who is to come" (his people destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD)
shall commit the Abomination of Desolation (AOD). Before the
AOD the Antichrist gains power; after the AOD the Antichrist
has complete control for 42 months = 3½-years = ½ op a seven year week.

BTW, the AOD is patterend after Anthicous Apifinees (Sp) who
splattered pig blook in the Holy Place and defiled the temple.
To accuse the Messsiah of doing this AOD is beyond me, but that
is what has to happen if you don't have an Antichrist in Daniel 9:26-27
somewhere.

Tamborine lady: //If it is this bad now, (hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.)
what will the future hold?//

This is not bad. These things are just the usual norman things that
come on the just and the unjust alike. What is bad is that in the
20th Century there were the lives of 26 Million Christian Martyrs given.
Even so, that is NOT what the coming Tribulation period will be like.
The little 7.6 earthquake that has killed 30,000 people in Pakistan
and neighboring countries is nothing like a million 9.0 earthquakes
in the first half of the Tribularion period (15.0 on the Rrictor scale)
[see Revelation 6]. Then at the end of the Tribularion period
comes earthquakes a thousand times that (18.0 on the Rictor scale)
[see Revelation 16]. No, the Tribulation events will be worldwide
and much worse than now.

The Lord is NOT going to be playing vidio games in the
Tribulation Period.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1769):
For then shall be great tribulation such as was not since
the beginning of the world to this timre, no nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should
no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be
shortened.

I do not think making the last 2,000 years the Great Tribulation
is what Jesus spake of. In the 13th century in Europe during
1347-1351AD some 25 million died ( 1/3 of the population)
in the Black Plague - the Tribulation is going to be worse.
(BTW, I have had my Bubonic Plague innocculation, have you?)
In 1918 at the end of the end of World War One (WW1) 18 million people
died of the Flu - ½ a million in the US -- the Tribulation is
going to be worse. In 1943-1945 Hitler had 6,000,000 Jews killed
and 15 million other people - people under his control, not fighting
him -- the Tribulation will be worse than that.

I can the the saints in heaven pleading with the Lord to spare
thier loved ones still on the earth. Even so, should the Tribulation
period continue, all flesh would be dead.

When I joined up on the Lord's team in April 1952 I thought the
Lord was sure going to get even with them bad guys. About 1964
the world had enough atomic bombs and hydrogen bombs and other
bad stuff to destroy all flesh on the earth. One of these days
the Lord must intervene on THE DAY OF THE LORD to save humanity
from killing themselves.

 

[Ed Edwards]

prophecynut: // Me4Him quote

//"Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,"
or
490 years are decreed for Daniel's people, the Israelites,
and upon Jerusalem to finish:

//1. Transgressions against God.
2. Put an end to sin.
3. Atone for wickedness.
4. Bring ever lasting righteousness.
5. To seal up vision and prophecy.

//CONTEXT: GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE THE ISRAELITES AND JERUSALEM, ISRAEL.
Has nothing to do with the body of Christ, HELLO, ANY BODY HOME! //

Amen, Brother Prophecynut -- Preach it!

Nobody home but us Pretribs and the occasional mid-trib


One can get from a-mill (no literal Millinnial Kingdom but a literal second coming)
to post-tribulation rapture.
And one can get from pre-millinnial Second Coming to post-trib rapture.
But can only get to the pretribulation rapture only through the pre-mill Second
coming. Interesting only one way to get to the right solution

Tamborine lady: //457 B.C. Decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
408 B.C. 7 weeks to rebuild the city (49 years)
A.D. 27 After 69 weeks the Prince was anointed (baptism of Jesus, Luke 3:1, 21)
(483 years)
...
A.D. 30/31 The Messiah died during the last week (crucifixion of Christ)
A.D. 34 Stoning of Stephen (Acts 6:12-7:60) and the gospel reaches
the Gentile world (Acts 9, 10).
...
If you follow the events, logically, you will come to the correct answer.//

Yes, or you can do like you did and end up with a mess.

I agree up to the end of 483 years 457BC to 27AD.
However, the ministry of Jesus was at most 2.5 years.
The Stoning of Stephen and the gospel reaching the Gentile
world were about 4 years apart.
Seems to me that this is FORCING THE FACTS to fill the PROPHECY.
It should be the other way around - let the prophecy dictate the
facts.

Fact: When Jesus arose in 29AD the Jews soon rejected Him
as Messiah. Then the Gentiles (read Romans 11) were sought and
the age of Gentiles began. The Age of Gentiles is the part
between the 69th and 70th week. When the Age of Gentiles ends with
the pretribularion rapture of the largely gentile church - the
Age of Gentiles ends and the 70th week of Daniel begins.

BobRyan: //But those who seek to slice/dice/chop-and-toss the timeline into
disconnected chunks obliterate ALL references to Christ from WITHIN
the timeline.//

False assumptions:
1. rightly dividing the (written) word of God is NOT
the same as "those who seek to slice/dice/chop-and-toss the timeline".
In fact, that is insulting I don't suppose you could conisder
that your Christian co-workers in the field might have a good idea?
Na, you have to be right no matter how many people you send to hell

2. NO reference to Christ is omitted.
However, we pre-mills do NOT call that which is impure (Antichrist)
that which is pure (Jesus). There are two princes in the
latter chapters of Daniel:
1. Messiah the Prince
2. the antiMessiah, the anti-Prince, the antichrist

The Messiah never disgraces the Temple of God - indeed the
Messiah is the Temple of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 9 is the greatest of all Messianic prophesies - if we do not abuse the text - if we LEAVE the 490 year tlmeline in tact - then ALL the actions of the Messiah given IN THE TEXT - remain IN the timeline prophecy.


But if you abuse the text - if you chop up the timeline JUST when it is getting to the predicted work of the Messiah that IT IDENTIFIES - the result is that NONE of the actions of the Messiah are IN the timeline.

This is incredibly obvious so far. All can clearly see it!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: //But those who seek to slice/dice/chop-and-toss the timeline into
disconnected chunks obliterate ALL references to Christ from WITHIN
the timeline.//

Ed said
False assumptions:

Nice "claim" Now all you had to do was to show ONE act of the Messiah MENTIONED IN the text that you left IN the 490 year timeline.

And "instead of doing that" you simply duck the point that would have supported your claim above.

What is up with that?!!

Notice the logical fallacy you employ below INSTEAD of that simple direct and well-reasoned approach I suggest above?

Ed said

1. rightly dividing the (written) word of God is NOT
the same as "those who seek to slice/dice/chop-and-toss the timeline".
In fact, that is insulting I don't suppose you could conisder
that your Christian co-workers in the field might have a good idea?
Na, you have to be right no matter how...

That fallacy accomplishes "some misdirection" in your favor while completely ignoring the "obvious reponse" which would have been to SHOW even ONE action of the Messiah listed IN THE text as still being IN the timeline once you slice and dice it!

Why so "silent"??

your response comes very close to pretending that NO ACTION of the messiah is listed in the prophecy ED (at least if one judges by your complete SILENCE on all the Messianic Gospel-centric acts LISTED IN the text).

What is up with that Ed?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[tamborine lady]

Ed Edwards. I am the one who is responsible for my interpretation of scripture, which I believe the Holy Ghost gave me. If I am wrong it has nothing to do with you. It will not effect your walk with the Lord.

So lets not throw darts at each other shall we?

I am not backing down, this is what I believe and I'm standing by it.

Of course IF you are wrong in what you believe the scripture says, then that is YOUR problem.

Peace,

Tam

 

[prophecynut]

Clarification Ed, I am mid-week pre-trib. No such thing as a 7 year Tribulation period, only the second half of the week is the Tribulation.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
Clarification Ed, I am mid-week pre-trib. No such thing as a 7 year Tribulation period, only the second half of the week is the Tribulation.

Then where is the first half of
the week? The ministry of Jesus? Some future
time (right before the second half of the week?)

I'm trying to figure out how to compare
with other theories:
--------------------------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib pre-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Postrib a-mill outline:

0. church age continues - is the same as: <-- you are here
2. Tribulation time - is the same as: <-- you are here
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <-- you are here
1.3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(this is one event with the rapture/resurrection)
5. new heaven & new earth

Peterist a-mill outline:

0. church age continues <-- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection <done happened
2. Tribulation time <-- or maybe you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event <done happend
4. spiritual MK=millinnial kingdom <done happened
5. new heaven & new earth <-- or maybe you are here

Ed recommends the pretrib pre-mill
view as aligning most nearly with Holy Scripture.
Ed recommends:
get Rapture Ready!
Stay Rapture Ready!


Expanded pretrib timeline:

0. church age continues

1. rapture/resurrection

2. The 7-year Tribulation Period

2a. Starting events
2a1. The seven year AC/Israel treaty
2a2. The revelation of the AC

2b. the first half (3.5years) - the Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2b1. The Seal Judgments (Revelation 6)
2b2. Rise of the Antichrist
2b3. Ten nation confederacy (Daniel 2:42-44;
---- Daniel 7:7,24; Rev 12:3; Rev 17:12,16)
2b4. The ministry of Elijah (Rev 11:3, Malachi 4:5,6)
2b5. Ministry of the 144,000 Israeli (Rev 7)
2b6. The Trumpet judgements/wrath (Rev 8-9)
2b7. The false church (ecclesiastical Babylon)
----- (Revelation 17:1-6)

2c. the mid-tribulation events
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2c1. The Little Scroll (Rev 10)
2c2. AC killed (Rev 13:3)
2c3. Satan cast out of heaven (Rev 12:7,9)
2c4. Resurrection of AC (Rev 13:3,4)
2c5. 3 kings killed, 7 submit to AC
2c6. destruction by AC of false church (Rev 7:16)
2c7. Death/resurrection of two witnesses
2c8. Worship of the AC starts (Rev 13:3,4,8)
2c9. Rise of the False Prophet (Rev 13:11-15)
2c10. MOB=mark of the beast (Rev 13:16-18)
2c11. 7-year covenant broken (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 11:41)
2c12. AOD=abomination of Desolation
----- (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:4)
2c13. Persecution of the Jews begins
----- (Rev 12:1-6)

2d. the second half (3.5years) - the Great Tribulation period
(these items are not necessarily in time sequence)

2d0. Rule of the Antichrist
2d1. the Bowl Judgments/wrath (Rev 16)
2d2. protection of the Jewish Remnant
---- (Micah 2:12; Matthew 24:16; Revelation 12:6,14)
2d3. Armageddon (these items are in time sequence):

2d3a. - assembling the allies of AC
------- (Rev 16:12-16)
2d3b. - destruction of Babylon
------- (Isaiah 13; Jeremiah 50-51; Revelation 18)
2d3c. - Fall of Jerusalem
------- (Micah 4:11-5:1; Zachariah 12:1-9; 14:1,2)
2d3d. - Armies of AC at Bozrah (Jeremiah 49:13,14)
2d3e. - Conversion of Israel complete
------- (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25-27)

(2e the end of the Trib, which is the Second Advent
---- of Jesus to defeat the AC and set up the MK)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
3a. postrib gathering and resurrection of the trib saints
3b. antichrist and false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire
- 19:20-22!
3c. The Judgment of the Nations= Matthew 25:31-46

4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

9.new heaven & new earth - 2 Peter 3:10

10. The Eternal Kingdom! The New Heavens and New Earth
and the New Jerusalem! - Revelation 21:1-3!
--------------------------------------------

I guess i'm still looking for suggestions
about my timelines for various end-time
scenarios. Thank your for your helpful
and thoughful critiques & suggestions.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
BobRyan: //But those who seek to slice/dice/chop-and-toss the timeline into
disconnected chunks obliterate ALL references to Christ from WITHIN
the timeline.//

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Ed said
False assumptions:

Nice "claim" Now all you had to do was to show ONE act of the Messiah MENTIONED IN the text that you left IN the 490 year timeline.

And "instead of doing that" you simply duck the point that would have supported your claim above.

What is up with that?!!

Notice the logical fallacy you employ below INSTEAD of that simple direct and well-reasoned approach I suggest above?

Ed said

1. rightly dividing the (written) word of God is NOT
the same as "those who seek to slice/dice/chop-and-toss the timeline".
In fact, that is insulting I don't suppose you could conisder
that your Christian co-workers in the field might have a good idea?
Na, you have to be right no matter how...

That fallacy accomplishes "some misdirection" in your favor while completely ignoring the "obvious reponse" which would have been to SHOW even ONE action of the Messiah listed IN THE text as still being IN the timeline once you slice and dice it!

Why so "silent"??

your response comes very close to pretending that NO ACTION of the messiah is listed in the prophecy ED (at least if one judges by your complete SILENCE on all the Messianic Gospel-centric acts LISTED IN the text).

What is up with that Ed?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]I guess i'm not following you this morning???
Please make a drawing that is easier to
understand. Thank you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

I thought we saw that and then made the correction "here"

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3350/5.html#000063

In Christ,
Bob ]</font>[/QUOTE]I don't think so. The 'solution'
you posed was invalid.

Which part of polysyndeton are you
having problems with?
I think those who wrote in Greek didn't have
the current capablity of Microsoft Word
to put in bullets, so they used 'and'
(Greek 'kai'). I believe those who wrote
in Greek didn't have hierarchal outlining
(I, II, III; 1,2,3; A.B.C.) so they used
the polysyndeton 'and' (Greek 'kai').

The big thing that doesn't make sense in
having Matthew 24:31 directly follow
Matthew 24:29 is that in Matthew 24:30
people DREAD to see the Lord coming in power
and might. Those for whom Jesus comes in
verse 31 are going to be rejoicing that Jesus
comes to get them.

 

[Me4Him]

Bob

If you add the 3 1/2 years Jesus preached and the 3 1/2 years (42 months) the AC will preach his gospel, you have a "FULL WEEK" of Seven years.

So, you're saying that 69 1/2 weeks have already passed and only the "half week" (3 1/2 years) remains.

But here's the problem, Jesus was cut off at the end of the 69th week, not in the middle of the week, that leaves one remaining week.

Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

One week remaining, but when is this week to start/end, you say there's no gap in the timeline yet put a gap in the middle of a week instead of between weeks.

and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

People of the prince is Satan's people, it doesn't have to Romans, but here we have the messiah cutoff, Jerusalem burned, Jews scattered, Israel finished as a nation. (Jerusalem 70 AD)

Ho 6:2 After two days (day=1000 Years) will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

But there's still that 70th week remaining.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (rapture)

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Da 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

How long is both Israel and the temple to be under satan's control

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

[prophecynut]

Ed's quote:

"Then where is the first half of
the week? The ministry of Jesus? Some future
time (right before the second half of the week?)"

The first half of the week is connected to the second half of the week.

You and I agree on the approximate 2,000 year gap from when Christ the "Anointed One" was crucified and the beginning of the last week of 7 years. At midpoint the ruler or prince who comes will break this 7 year covenant.

When the AC begins his reign he will "put an end to sacrifice and offering," set up the abomination (Mt. 24:15) and "destroy the city and the sactuary" (third temple).

Jacob's trouble begins with the invasion and destruction of Jerusalem by the Antichrist, it will be a " time of distress such as has not happened" before (Dn. 12:1; Mt. 24:21). A "man clothed in linen" told Daniel the duration of Jacob's trouble will be a "time, times, and a half" a time, or 3.5 years (Dn. 12:5-7). Mt. 24; Mark 13; Lk. 21 covers the same period that begins "in the midst of the week" several hours after the mid-week Rapture. This distress cannot begin until the AC begins his reign of 42 months in the second half (Rev. 13:5).

Confirmmation of the 7 year covenant will start the 70th week and usher in the "Peace and Safety" of the first half (1 Thess. 5:3). Numerous OT prophecies allude to a false peace before God's judgment.

Jer. 4:10
False peace followed by Jacob's trouble (sword).

Jer. 6:14-15; 8:11-12
Proclamation of peace followed by punishment (castdown).

Jer. 14:13-16; 23:16-20
False prophets declare peace before God's wrath.

Eze. 38:8-9; 11-13
Peaceful Jews living in safety before Gog's invasion.

There has to be a time of peace in the Middle East before onset of Tribulation. Peace begins with the 7 year covenant and ends midway when the AC assumes power in the second half.

1 Thess. 5:3 NIV
While people (Gentile and Jew) are saying "Peace and safety" (in the first half), destruction (of the Tribulation) will come on them suddenly (Jer. 15:8; Lk. 21:34)(midway into the 7 year covenant), as labor pains on a pregnant woman (Mt. 24:8; Mk. 13:8), and they will not escape.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him:
//Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said
unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision
concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation
to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

//How long is both Israel and the temple to be under Satan's control

//Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.//

Tell me the starting point of the 2300 'days' and I'll tell you the
year when the sanctuary will be cleansed.

1. The start year is 135AD when Jerusalem was destroyed (again) by the
Roman Empire. So the Temple will be cleansed by 2435AD.

2. The start year is 70AD when the Temple was destroyed by
Rome (General Titus, later Emperor, of the Roman Empire).
The Temple will be cleansed by 2375AD

3. The start year is 33AD when Jesus arose from the dead.
The Temple will be cleansed by 2330AD

4. The start year is 27AD when Jesus arose from the dead.
The Temple will be cleansed by 2327AD.

5. The start year is 1BC (I especially like the story where
Jesus was born on 25 Dec 1BC and circumcised on the 8th day
which was 1 Jan 1AD) when Jesus was born. The Temple will be
cleansed by the end of 2299AD.

6. The start year is 4BC when Jesus was born. The Temple will
be cleansed by the end of 2296AD.

7. /other date, please specify/

Of course, if the sanctuary is to be cleansed at the Glorious Second
Coming Event (Jesus destroys the Antichrist and his lackeys and sets
up a physical Millennial Kingdom) - then the Rapture of the church
must take place about seven years earlier:

1. rapture in 2428AD
2. rapture in 2368AD
3. rapture in 2323AD (has a nice repetition to it)
4. rapture in 2320AD
5. rapture in 2293AD
6. rapture in 2290AD

(because 'no man knows the day or the hour' we could sure use
a woman's help here

)

 

[Ed Edwards]

Consider the schema Bro. BobRyan presents
October 11, 2005 9:10 PM EDT (on page 2).

I see many flaws in this typical post-tribulation rapture,
a-millennial (no physical Millennial Kingdom of Christ):

1. The minor resurrection of Jarius' daughter is compared
to a general resurrection of perchance two Billion (that
is 2,000 Million) NT Saints.

2. If the Lord fires off the Tribulation period now there might be
as many as 200,000,000 saints (1/10 of the Christians) present.
If the Antichrist is half as efficient as the Bible suggests he
is, he can slay up to 199,999,000 of these (leaving 1,000 left).
There is no guarantee in the Bible that says, in general, God
will protect anybody but the 144,000 helpers.

3. /I am not allowed on this board
to bring up a certain topic describing what happens
to the Bride of Christ when hell is brought to earth/

4. /I am not allowed to bring up a certain topic relative
to the responsibilities of parents for their children facing
certain slavery & torture * other fates worse then death./

5. God has promised His wrath will NOT be poured out on His
Children, and the Tribulation is wrath lite the first half;
wrath heavy the second half. What better way is there for God
to help the gentile Church to escape the Tribulation Period than
getting us out of here?

6. The two pictures Jesus uses in conjunction with the Tribulation
period is:

A. the picture of Noah - Noah and his family were taken off the
surface of the earth which was destroyed

B. the picture of Lot - Lot and his two daughters were taken
out of Sodom before Sodom and Hommorah and the cites of the plains
were destroyed

Jesus could have used these beautiful pictures in the Bible
of God keeping His beloved in the midst of Persecution:

C. Daniel and the Lions Den - Daniel had to sleep through the
Lion's den, but the Lord was with him in the midst of the Lion's Den.
(I always wanted to star in a CCM Rock Group called
'Daniel & the Lion's Din'

)

D. The Three Hebrew Children and the Fiery Furnace - the Three
Hebrew Children were safe in the fiery furnace - protected probably
by the very Hand of God, the pre-incarnate: Messiah Jesus.

Why did Jesus pick GET-UM-OUT examples for the Tribulation period
instead of SEE-UM-THROUGH examples for the Tribulation period.

7. There seems to be a complete lack of understanding between
the FIRST RESURRECTION (of the just) and the NEVER SAID:
FIRST AND ONLY RESURRECTION. There is no limit in Revelation 20 to
one and only one FIRST RESURRECTION. Sorry, I have a Mathematics degree
and there is a difference between 'FIRST and ONE'; there is
a difference between 'FIRST AND ONLY' and 'FIRST'. Revelation 20:1-6
does NOT limit God to one and only one FIRST RESURRECTION.

8. - to be continued -

 

[Ed Edwards]

Consider the schema Bro. BobRyan presents
October 11, 2005 10:10 PM EDT.

I see many flaws in this typical post-tribulation rapture,
a-millennial (no physical Millennial Kingdom of Christ).
/Item continued, page 2 of 2/:

8. As usual, the a-mill group's two divisions are at war with each other:

A. group one a-mills say: physical Second Coming but no physical earthly
millennial Kingdom of Christ

B. group two a-mills say: no physical Second Coming and no physical
earthly Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

Well Group one (which my beloved Brothers BobRyan and DeafPosttrib both
seem to embrace) is closer to right than the group two (no examples
known) is.

I believe in a physical, earthly Second Coming of Messiah Jesus
in power and glory AND a physical, earthly Second Coming of Messiah
Jesus to come get me (either in rapture or resurrection).
Yep, Jesus is up-close and personal.

9. Bob Ryan:
//The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end
---
Notice that my numbering follows the same text sequence of Matt 24
instead of being jumbled up? //

Yes, I see. However, to me it does NOT answer the
questions that the disciples asked in Matthew 24:3.
That was the whole thing about my order - it is the same
order as the disciples asked Jesus NOT the order given
by Matthew.

I would still like to see you show from Matthew 24 what the
answer of Jesus is to the disciples three questions:

1. When will the temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of the Second Coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of the Age (KJV: world)?

10. The post-trib, a-mill schema for Matthew 24 does not
match the schema for 2 Thess 2:

a. the church age now
b. the rapture of the church
c. the Tribulation period
d. the coming of Christ to destroy the Antichrist

11. your schema for Matthew 24 does not seem to include
anything in Revelation 2 through 15???

12. the post-trib, a-mill schema for Matthew 24 does not
match the schema for Revelation

14. the post-trib, a-mill schema for Matthew 24 does not
match the schema for 2 Peter 3.

15. the post-trib, a-mill schema for Matthew 24 does not
match the schema for Daniel chapter 9.

16. quite frankly, though simple, the post-trib, a-mill schema for Matthew 24
seems forced. It looks like somebody decided the way it would be
and imposed it upon the text. The text was forced into the preconcieved
mold.

17. What is the meaning of a severe earthquake in Pakistan
about 7 Oct 2005? My pretrib, pre-mill schema says that earthquake
shows that the Church Age continues. With each continuing day,
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the Lord draws nearer.

18. What is the meaning of the major disaster of flooding in
'the Big Easy' mean? My pretrib, pre-mill schema says that hurricane
shows that the Church Age continues. With each continuing day,
the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the Lord draws nearer.

19. - to be continued if/when time permits ... -

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him: //Take a look at these charts, and notice the "Sequence"
is the same in both charts and follow the exact sequence
of the Feast days, but that would only be important if
you understood the rituals of the feast days, which
are "FORSHADOWS" of the Events in the NT.//

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

Do not be discouraged for they who only drag their feet
also serve the Lord - they are called 'BREAKS'

Seriously, some will say you change the WORD OF GOD by making
it plain for anybody to understand. The professional
profit prophets need things to be discouraging and complex
and mysterious so they can explain them for profit

Me4Him: //The Trib is Israel's "Day of Atonement" for rejecting Jesus, but
Jesus has already made atonement for the church, (believers)
therefore we "PASSOVER" the trib.//

Amen, Brother Me4Him - you are so RIGHT ON!

Me4Him: //As the "Passover lamb", Jesus only protects
the "FIRSTBORN", or "FIRSTFRUIT". (believers)

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

BobRyan: //But those who seek to slice/dice/chop-and-toss the timeline into
disconnected chunks obliterate ALL references to Christ from WITHIN
the timeline.//

quote:
---
Ed said
False assumptions:
---

BobRyan: //Nice "claim" Now all you had to do was to show ONE act
of the Messiah MENTIONED IN the text that you left
IN the 490 year timeline.//

Feel free to show from Daniel 9:26-27 the acts you attribute to
the Messiah.

I see one act of the Messiah in Daniel 9:26-27:
"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,
but not for himself:"

And then the rest of Daniel 9:26-27 speaks NOT of the Messiah whom we know
to be fulfilled in Jesus.

I believe that Daniel 8:23-27 is a prophecy of the physical/literal
Antichrist. Somebody want to shout AMEN! ?

Here is what is NOT about the Messiah in Daniel 9:26-27:

-a prince will come
is this Messiah the prince or 'a king of fierce countenance'? (Daniel 8:23)

- the people of the prince will destroy the holy city (Jerusalem)
and the sanctuary (Temple on the Temple mount).
If this is Messiah the Prince, His people are the Jews.
Did the Jews destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary?
No, Rome destroyed the Temple in 70AD.
So this prince is, not the Messiah Prince, but is an evil prince
(King of the North in Chapter 11).

- and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end
of the war desolations are determined.
Sorry folks, this sounds nothing like when Stephen was stoned (some a-mills)
but was similar in TYPE to the destruction in 70AD of the Temple.
(Rome also destroyed Jerusalem in 135AD.)
From 70AD until the Roman Empire no longer existed
the site of the Temple was trod upon by the Gentiles.
A Roman armies made their home base on the Temple Mount.

Then we get to the 'he' doings. There are two choices to resolve
the pronouns 'he':
A. Messiah the prince
B. the prince whose people destroyed the Temple and Jerusalem

Let us see what 'he' does:

- he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week;
I hear folk saying 'he' is Messiah the Prince.
Note for the KJV: in verse 25 it is 'Messiah the Prince'
(note capital 'M' capital 'P').
Note in verse 26 it is 'Messiah' (note the capital 'M')
Note in verse 26 about the evil prince it is small letter 'p'
prince. The KJV translators put the capital letters in.
I think they mean that MESSIAH THE PRINCE, my Beloved Lord Jesus,
is IMPORTANT and the evil prince is NOT IMPORTANT.
Our Beloved Lord Jesus is our Lord and Savior, the evil prince
is a stick in the mud.

I hear folks saying 'he' confirms a covenant.
The Lord Jesus (Messiah the Prince) makes the New Covenant
which was foretold in the Old Testament (OT). But the New Covenent
is NOT a 7-year covenent - the New Covenent is an Eternal Covenent
which never needs confirmation.

I believe this first 'he' in Daniel 9:27
is the evil prince NOT the King of Kings.

-in the midst of the week, he shall cause the the sacrifice
and the oblation to cease
Here is the second 'he' which can be the evil prince (AKA: Antichrist)
or the Messiah the Prince.
Well, my Lord and Savior, Messiah the Prince, brought a halt to
the daily sacrifice and the daily oblation - in the spiritual relm -
by giving the perfect sacrifice. In the physical relm it was
the Romans stopped the daily oblation and the daily sacrifice.
By contrast, some day when the Antichrist walks among us, shall
in the Middle of the 70th Week of Daniel go into the restored temple
(the first half of the week is plenty of time to build the temple)
and declare himself as being God and end the daily oblation
and the daily sacrifice. So this doing is a toss-up: could be Jesus,
could be Antichrist.

-in the midst of the week he shall cause ... the overspreading of
abominations
-he shall make it desolate, even unti the consummation,
and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This third 'he' commits the Abomination of Desolation (AOD).

Sorry, but if Messiah the Prince Jesus has of been planning on
committing the AOD himself, then i think he had every opportunity
to TELL US in Matthew 24:15. Instead, Jesus (MESSIAH THE PRINCE)
says when you see the AOD standing in the Temple,
if you are in Judea - flee to the mountians.

I just cannot see my Jesus, my Lord and Savior, constructing something
in the temple called the Abomination of Desolation (AOD) that will
cause somebody to flee to the mountains. Therefore the
second 'he' in Daniel 9:27 must be the evil prince NOT the Prince of Peace.
The thirst 'he' in Daniel 9:27 must be the evil prince and NOT the
Prince of Peace.

Now, what you think Jesus did to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:26b-27?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
//Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days;
then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.//

Tell me the starting point of the 2300 'days' and I'll tell you the
year when the sanctuary will be cleansed.

1. The start year is 135AD when Jerusalem was destroyed (again) by the
Roman Empire. So the Temple will be cleansed by 2435AD.

...

4. The start year is 27AD when Jesus arose from the dead.
The Temple will be cleansed by 2327AD.

...

7. /other date, please specify/

The hit-or-miss method you are using is not reliable. Better to pay attention to the facts.

The vision of Daniel 8 covers a time span that begins with some point in the Persian empire and ends at some point after the Greek empire splits into 4 and another power is raised up.

A power that "is exceedinly great" by comparison.

These are the "facts" from Daniel 8.

But it does not give a start date for the vision -- just a general idea of the timeline covered.

Daniel 8 ends in confusion with Daniel complaining that he needs more information to understand "the vision".

IN Daniel 9 the angel comes to Daniel with the express mission of "helping Daniel understand THE VISION". Of which there is only one in context for which Daniel is seeking understanding.

In the "explanation" given in Daniel 9 the Angel gives a starting event and also points to the 490 years as being decreed. (selected out from the 2300 as the first 490 in that 2300 day timeline and having an explicit start point).

So having the Angel give the start point - instead of just randomly guessing around for it - is much more reliable.

In Christ,

Bob