2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[prophecynut]

Rev. 20:4-5 mentions two groups in heaven, those sitting on thrones having authority to judge and those beheaded during the Tribulation. Those on thrones are the Church saints who were promised they would serve as judges (1 Cor. 6:2-3). Only the beheaded Tribulation saints come to life in the first resurrection, the Church saints sitting on thrones came to life previously through the Rapture.

The first resurrection does not include those sitting on thrones who already have glorified bodies in heaven. The "souls of those who had been beheaded" must participate in the first resurrection in order to receive glorified bodies like those sitting on the thrones.

The first resurrection includes only the righteous dead from the OT and NT, this passage does not mention the translation of living believers as required for the Rature.

The saints sitting on thrones at the end of the Tribulation are the same saints John sees in heaven prior to judgment (Rev. 5:7) and during the Tribulation (Rev. 8:3-4). The only way to have glorified saints in heaven before Tribulation is to have 1 Thess. 13-18 occur before it.

 

[Ray Berrian]

All saints of all time will be included under the umbrella of the term, The First Resurrection.

No sinner is ever included in the First Resurrection from the dead, as in graves of the dead.

Just before the end of time, the Lord will raise from the dead all wicked people to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. They receive what Jesus speaks of through John, as 'the second death' [Revelation 20:14-15].

All the wicked, of all time, will be raised from the dead after the 1,000 Millennial reign of Christ on the earth [Revelation 20:5].

 

[prophecynut]

All saints of all time will be included under the umbrella of the term, The First Resurrection.


No way Jose,

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by prophecynut:
All saints of all time will be included under the umbrella of the term, The First Resurrection.


No way Jose,

Amen Brohter Prophecynut

Peach it!

Here is you a proof text.

Rev 20:6 (KJV1611 edition+)
Blessed & holy is he that hath part
in ye

ONE & ONLY

resurrection: on such
the second death hath no power, but they
shall be Priests of God, and of Christ,
and shall reigne with him a thousand yeeres.

Sorry to be so tongue in cheek.
The scripture says FIRST not
ONE AND ONLY. 'First' is ordinal,
'one' is cardinal - there is a difference.

IMHO 'first resurrection' is a set:
all the justified through Messiah Jesus.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
All saints of all time will be included under the umbrella of the term, The First Resurrection.

No sinner is ever included in the First Resurrection from the dead, as in graves of the dead.

Just before the end of time, the Lord will raise from the dead all wicked people to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment. They receive what Jesus speaks of through John, as 'the second death' [Revelation 20:14-15].

All the wicked, of all time, will be raised from the dead after the 1,000 Millennial reign of Christ on the earth [Revelation 20:5].

Amen, Brother Ray Berrian -- you are RIGHT ON!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Me4Him:


The rapture, (those dead and alive) occurs "pre trib",
the "First Resurrection" occurs "Post Trib".

The "Church" isn't here during the trib, it's removal is called the "RAPTURE",

When they return with Jesus, "to the earth", at the end of the trib, is the "First Resurrection".

The "Day of Christ" is the rapture,

The "Day of the Lord", is the "first resurrection",

Two different "NAMES",

IT is one thing to "insist on something" it is another to show it in scripture. I clearly see that you need to reject the idea that the resurrection of the righteous that is explicit in 1Thess 4 "The Dead in Christ shall rise first" which is the FIRST resurrection (yes that would be RISING from the ground -- yes that is planet EARTH Ground!) --

But John is very clear in John 5 that there are two resurrections - one of the righteous and one of the wicked. Then John SHOWS those two resurrections in Rev 20 -- the one HE calls the FIRST resurrection being of the righteous "The Holy and blessed" and the other being the resurrection of the wicked - 1000 years later - over whom the second death DOES have power!

How can this obvious point be missed?

How can you insist that what John identifies as the FIRST general resurrection of all the righteous - the "focus of the entire NT church" is NOT really the FIRST resurrection of the all the righteous!!??

How can you insist that the MAIN resurrection event seen in 1Thess 4 is NOT what John calls the resurrection of the "Holy and blessed... the FIRST resurrection"???!!

The point is that you have to "eisegete" such a notion into the text - because a natural reading of the text does not give it to you.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Me4Him:


The rapture, (those dead and alive) occurs "pre trib",
the "First Resurrection" occurs "Post Trib".

The "Church" isn't here during the trib, it's removal is called the "RAPTURE",

When they return with Jesus, "to the earth", at the end of the trib, is the "First Resurrection".

The "Day of Christ" is the rapture,

The "Day of the Lord", is the "first resurrection",

Two different "NAMES",

In Rev 20 with the FIRST resurrection is the actual resurreciton of the righteous (post trib as you say - since we see tribulation in Rev 16 already) - which makes them "The Dead in Christ" as Paul shows us in 1Thess 4 - all the righteous raised when the promise of Christ (John 14) is realized "I will come again and receive you to myself" that 2nd coming - that time when Christ "Comes again" is the time of our being receieved up into heaven - it is the focus of the entire church and so John calls it the "FIRST resurrection".

But even more interesting - this is the exact sequence Christ shows in Matt 24 - with the tribulation PRECEDING the appearing of Christ in the clouds of heaven!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ed said
The scripture says FIRST not
ONE AND ONLY. 'First' is ordinal,
'one' is cardinal - there is a difference.

Well at least we agree on one obvious point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ed Edwards,

What do you think about Revelation 20:11?

Where do you think this Great White Throne Judgment will take place? We all know this is the final judgment only for lost souls, in counter distinction to the Judgment Seat of Christ which is the judgment/evaluation set for all Christians to be reviewed.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is an evangelistic message I wrote
probably in 1998. It features Judgements:



Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goats judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[BobRyan]

2 Cor 5 and Romans 2 are in perfect agreement about the Judgment seat of Christ - it is for heaven vs hell. It judges BOTH good deeds and evil deeds.

The scripture shows clearly in Romans 2 what the "reward is" for evil deeds.

It can not be missed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

IF the Rapture is a "resurrection", as defined by scripture,

WHY isn't the word "resurrection" used to describe the rapture, 7 years prior to what it does describe as the "First Resurrection"??

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
2 Cor 5 and Romans 2 are in perfect agreement about the Judgment seat of Christ - it is for heaven vs hell. It judges BOTH good deeds and evil deeds.

The scripture shows clearly in Romans 2 what the "reward is" for evil deeds.

It can not be missed.

In Christ,

Bob

NO JUDGMENT of sinners takes place until the GWT, when Jesus returns to the earth, "First resurrection", Angels reapers cast the unsaved into hell to be resurrected for judgment at the GWT.

This is the "Wheat/Tares" separation, the only Judgement that occurs when Jesus returns is the "BEMA SEAT" Judgment for "REWARDS".

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. (MK)

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I Corinthians chapter fifteen is the resurrection of the saints and is the same thing as the Rapture.

Revelation chapter twenty verse five has little logical, clear meaning if the wicked are not resurrection after the Millennial reign of Christ on earth [Zechariah 14].

Paraphrase: 'And the rest of the dead were not resurrected out of their graves until the Millenium years were ended.'

Anyone with a I.Q. of 90 will understand that 'the rest of the dead lived not again' points to two distinct resurrections from the dead but only if guided by the teaching of the Word and the Holy Spirit.

The First Resurrection is the resurrection of all saints; the resurrection unto damnation follows about 1,007 years after Christ takes His church to Heaven [I Thessalonians 4:16].

The last day in John six is mentioned about four times which indicates the last day for His church to be on this earth. Martha in John eleven--twenty-four understood she would see Lazarus at the First Resurrection/Rapture/return of the Lord in the clouds as noted in the Thessalonian passage.

John 5:29 indicates there will be a resurrection to life and to the 'second death.' This is a fact. Some have misunderstood thinking that the resurrection of both groups takes place at the same time.

In the vernacular a man can wash his car one day and wax it the next, if you catch the connection.

No where in Scipture does it say that the Lord raises all dead bodies at one time.

Dr. Berrian

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Dr. Ray Berrian - Preach it!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I Corinthians chapter fifteen is the resurrection of the saints and is the same thing as the Rapture.

Good point.

The resurrection of the saints is real - is on earth and coincides with the rapture as seen in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15.

It is impossible to miss.

This is the main focus of the NT church -- the one that John calls the "First Resurrection" in Rev 20. It is the one that completes Christ's promise that John records in John 14 "I will come AGAIN and RECEIVE you to myself".

The 2nd resurrection happens 1000 years later.

Ray said -

The First Resurrection is the resurrection of all saints;

Very true -- and the resurrection unto damnation follows exactly 1,000 years after Christ takes His church to Heaven [I Thessalonians 4:16].

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed".

Rev 20
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

The first resurrection begins the 1000 year clock for the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Ray said
The last day in John six is mentioned about four times which indicates the last day for His church to be on this earth. Martha in John eleven--twenty-four understood she would see Lazarus at the First Resurrection/Rapture/return of the Lord in the clouds as noted in the Thessalonian passage.

Correct.

RAy said
John 5:29 indicates there will be a resurrection to life and to the 'second death.' This is a fact. Some have misunderstood thinking that the resurrection of both groups takes place at the same time.

That is correct.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
2 Cor 5 and Romans 2 are in perfect agreement about the Judgment seat of Christ - it is for heaven vs hell. It judges BOTH good deeds and evil deeds.

The scripture shows clearly in Romans 2 what the "reward is" for evil deeds.

It can not be missed.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by Me4Him:

NO JUDGMENT of sinners takes place until the GWT, when Jesus returns to the earth, "First resurrection", Angels reapers cast the unsaved into hell to be resurrected for judgment at the GWT.

This is the "Wheat/Tares" separation, the only Judgement that occurs when Jesus returns is the "BEMA SEAT" Judgment for "REWARDS".

And now some facts.

In Romans 2 and in 2Cor 5 AND in Daniel 7 we see depicted the FUTURE judgment of Christ that is BEFORE the 2nd coming when "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". But in all those cases - the wicked are DEFINED as the group that is NOT the saints. The definition for the saints -- is shown (according to the rule Christ gives in Matt 7 and in Romans 2) in an impartial manner with the result that only the saints stand justified (as Romans 2 points out).

The fact that the executive judgment occurs at the return of Christ -- Rev 19 with the wicked being destroyed and again at the end of Rev 20 (at the end of the 1000 years) with the wicked being detroyed -- is a natural consequence of that impartial Romans 2 judgment that preceeds the 2nd coming.

The judgment described in Rev 14 with a message given to all those who dwell on the Earth "Give glory to God for the hour of His judgment HAS COME"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
[QB] I Corinthians chapter fifteen is the resurrection of the saints and is the same thing as the Rapture.


The First Resurrection is the resurrection of all saints; the resurrection unto damnation follows about 1,007 years after Christ takes His church to Heaven [I Thessalonians 4:16].

The last day in John six is mentioned about four times which indicates the last day for His church to be on this earth. Martha in John eleven--twenty-four understood she would see Lazarus at the First Resurrection/Rapture/return of the Lord in the clouds as noted in the Thessalonian passage.

John 5:29 indicates there will be a resurrection to life and to the 'second death.' This is a fact. Some have misunderstood thinking that the resurrection of both groups takes place at the same time.

No where in Scipture does it say that the Lord raises all dead bodies at one time.

Dr. Berrian

Mt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

This "qualifies" as a resurrection because they were "back on the earth", alive, in Jerusalem.

Mr 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

So does this.


1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Re 20:5 This is the first resurrection.

And so does this.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And so does this

What is the "Common denominator between all these "Resurrections" that is NOT TRUE for the "Rapture"??

They are "Back on the earth, alive".

"In the rapture" they are not "back on earth", but go directly to heaven, which is "NOT TRUE" wherever the word "resurrection" is used by scripture.

Resurrection denotes a "PROMISE" they we'll be "back on the earth, alive", not only for the MK, but also the "NEW EARTH".

OT Saints believed in a "Resurrection", but they never heard of a "RAPTURE", and it's in this difference that we have to understand it as well.

I have no problem with using the word resurrection to describe the rapture, but it can/does cause confusion where prophecy is concerned.

I agree that no sinners are "resurrected" until the GWT.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
2 Cor 5 and Romans 2 are in perfect agreement about the Judgment seat of Christ - it is for heaven vs hell. It judges BOTH good deeds and evil deeds.

The scripture shows clearly in Romans 2 what the "reward is" for evil deeds.

It can not be missed.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by Me4Him:

NO JUDGMENT of sinners takes place until the GWT, when Jesus returns to the earth, "First resurrection", Angels reapers cast the unsaved into hell to be resurrected for judgment at the GWT.

This is the "Wheat/Tares" separation, the only Judgement that occurs when Jesus returns is the "BEMA SEAT" Judgment for "REWARDS".

And now some facts.

In Romans 2 and in 2Cor 5 AND in Daniel 7 we see depicted the FUTURE judgment of Christ that is BEFORE the 2nd coming when "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". But in all those cases - the wicked are DEFINED as the group that is NOT the saints. The definition for the saints -- is shown (according to the rule Christ gives in Matt 7 and in Romans 2) in an impartial manner with the result that only the saints stand justified (as Romans 2 points out).

The fact that the executive judgment occurs at the return of Christ -- Rev 19 with the wicked being destroyed and again at the end of Rev 20 (at the end of the 1000 years) with the wicked being detroyed -- is a natural consequence of that impartial Romans 2 judgment that preceeds the 2nd coming.

The judgment described in Rev 14 with a message given to all those who dwell on the Earth "Give glory to God for the hour of His judgment HAS COME"

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]I agree that "Judgement" is passed on all sinners during the church/Trib period, we reap what we sow, however the Judgement we're discussing here is "APPEARING BEFORE JESUS", for Judgment.

And no sinner will "Stand in Judgment" before Jesus until the GWT, this is when "every knee will bow".

When Jesus returns, only the "LIVING" are separated, "Wheat/Tares", the Angel reapers cast all the unsaved into hell to await the GWT.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Mt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 27 points to an event that was in the PAST for John. When he wrote John 20 only THE FIRST resurrection is mentioned by him as the FUTURE resurrection that would fulfill the John 14 promise of Christ that he wrote about.

Obviously.

MAtt 27 DOES NOT point to an event that could be construed as the John 14 promise "If I go I WILL come AGAIN and receive you unto myself that WHERE I am there you may be also" -- ONLY the FIRST resurrection fits that bill as we see it in both Rev 20 and in 1Thess 4.

In Christ,

Bob