2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

[BobRyan]

The FALLING AWAY from this old world is
the gathering of the saints at the end
of the Church Age and the beginning of
the Tribulation Period - the FALLING AWAY
is the pretribulation rapture of the
Church Age saints.

IN Matt 24 Christ draws a timeline from the days of the destruction of Jerusalem to the end of the world. He shows a great big black hole of persecution in that timeline.

In 2Thess 2 we also see a timeline from the days of Paul to the end of the world the "coming of our Lord". Paul shows a huge black hole of apostacy in that timeline.

Rev 12-14 shows a timeline from just before the birth of Christ to the end of the world. It shows a big giant black hole of persectution in Rev 12-13 just before the rise of the United States to power.

Even those who slice and dice Daniel 9 into tiny little disconnected time fragments admit that the end of the world is short by comarison to the CENTURIES of big black hole Christian church apostacy and Christian persecution in the dark ages.

So "what if" the Bible got that right! Suppose the BIG BLACK HOLE all these chapters are identifying is the SAME big black hole that history SHOWS to have existed for all those century after century after century epocs?

(Work with me on this one for a moment).

If Christ came TODAY and in heaven you are talking to Elisha about the last 2000 years of Christian history in broad sweeping terms. Could you possibly IGNORE the many millions of Christians in heaven who came out of that centuries long dark black hole of persecution in your broad brush strokes of 2000 years of history??

Wouldn't that be a much more obvious rendering of the text given that everybody can already see that giant black hole in human history even WITHOUT the Bible??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Bob Ryan,

Thanks for reminding us the whole gammet of events in past centuries. Yes, even with the apostasy there always have been orthodox Christians who have and are spreading the truths of the Lord. That is what most of us strive for, the clarity of Christian thought and doctrine. The Holy Spirit is the Best Guide as we study the Word [I John 2:27].

 

[Me4Him]

Day of Christ (Rapture)

Mt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


"Day of the Lord", (First Resurrection)

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east,

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection starts the "Seventh day of rest" (MK), and Scripture doesn't call the "rapture" the "first resurrection", these are two separate events separated by the trib period.

The "First resurrection" is when the "already rapture Church" returns to the earth "WITH JESUS", not to "meet him in the air".

There won't be any "knocking on the door" trying to get into Heaven when Jesus returns to the earth, those the angels cast into hell.

Here again, time continues for salvation after the Rapture, but not after Jesus's return.

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ [with all his saints.

And when you consider that the Holy Ghost is the means by which Jesus said he would be with us "ALWAYS" and the "restrainer" who is "taken out of the way" before the AC is revealed, (pre trib rapture) the differences between "Day of Christ" (Bridegroom) and "Day of the Lord" is easy to "See".

 

[Me4Him]

I'd forgot I had this Chart.

And it is "Confirmed" (two witness) by the "Feast days".

And if you add "THREE WITNESES", you can take it to the bank.

 

[BobRyan]

Me4Him - those charts are nice. They reflect well the view you believe in -- but they are in error.

#1. They chop up prophetic timelines instead of leaving all prophecy timelines in tact - contiguous.

#2. Your view ignores the fact that "Our gathering together to Him" in 2Thess 2 is in fact the event already shown to that same church in 1Thess 4 showing how we are brought together with all those who have died before our time -

1Thess 4 -
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Your view does not allow us to note that the gathering together of all the saints (living and dead in Christ) in 1Thess 4 as we meet the Lord in the air - is also the subject of "our gathering together to Him" in 2Thess 2.

On those two glaring and unreconciled problems your entire model falls apart. Though it is well drawn.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
IN Matt 24 Christ draws a timeline from the days of the destruction of Jerusalem to the end of the world. He shows a great big black hole of persecution in that timeline.

In 2Thess 2 we also see a timeline from the days of Paul to the end of the world the "coming of our Lord". Paul shows a huge black hole of apostacy in that timeline.

Rev 12-14 shows a timeline from just before the birth of Christ to the end of the world. It shows a big giant black hole of persectution in Rev 12-13 just before the rise of the United States to power.

In your BLACK HOLE of despair
lies the real greatest HOPE in the world:
the pretribulation Rapture of the Church Age
elect saints. Whatever logic replaces HOPE
with the black hole of dispair is ILLOGICAL.

Hope is always better than doubt.
Life is always better than death.
Eternal life is better than temporal life.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Me4Him - those charts are nice. They reflect well the view you believe in -- but they are in error.

#1. They chop up prophetic timelines instead of leaving all prophecy timelines in tact - contiguous.

#2. Your view ignores the fact that "Our gathering together to Him" in 2Thess 2 is in fact the event already shown to that same church in 1Thess 4 showing how we are brought together with all those who have died before our time -
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />1Thess 4 -
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Your view does not allow us to note that the gathering together of all the saints (living and dead in Christ) in 1Thess 4 as we meet the Lord in the air - is also the subject of "our gathering together to Him" in 2Thess 2.

On those two glaring and unreconciled problems your entire model falls apart. Though it is well drawn.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Our "gathering to him" is the Rapture, "Feast of trumpets", Dead/living, "Day of Christ"

But If you'll note, when Jesus returns to the earth, only the "LIVING" (on the earth) are separated, Wheat/Tares, and the "DEAD STAY DEAD" until the GWT, all the other saints "COME WITH JESUS"

With the exception of the "Remnant" of Jews who "survive the trib", "ALL SAINTS" come with Jesus, these aren't "DEAD, BURIED IN THE GROUND", as they are in the "RAPTURE".

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

All who enter the trib will be the "Remnant" and the "SAINTS" who come with Jesus, this doesn't allow for any to be "Resurrected" from the "GRAVE" as they will be in the rapture.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

[BobRyan]

OK - so without inserting your other views into the text lets take this one step at a time.

You admit that "our gathering together to Him" is the rapture that we see in 1Thess 4 where we see BOTH the "resurrection of the Dead in Christ" AND the "Coming of our LORD" as promised in John 14 -- BOTH are mentioned there.

And you admit that this is "our gathering together to HIM". Which as it turns out - is the subject of 2Thess2. (A chapter that ALSO mentiones this as "The Coming of our Lord".

But you seem reluctant to allow 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 to speak as they do to that same event.

Why?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
OK - so without inserting your other views into the text lets take this one step at a time.

You admit that "our gathering together to Him" is the rapture that we see in 1Thess 4 where we see BOTH the "resurrection of the Dead in Christ" AND the "Coming of our LORD" as promised in John 14 -- BOTH are mentioned there.

And you admit that this is "our gathering together to HIM". Which as it turns out - is the subject of 2Thess2. (A chapter that ALSO mentiones this as "The Coming of our Lord".

But you seem reluctant to allow 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 to speak as they do to that same event.

Why?

In Christ,

Bob

I'm not following your line of thought on this, both chapters describe the same "EVENT",

Jesus doesn't "touch the earth" in the rapture, we meet him in the air and return to heaven, Day of Christ.

In the "Day of the Lord" Jesus comes "COMPLETELY" to the earth, his foot "TOUCHES" down on Mt Olives.

Note the progression of Jesus being "revealed".

1. Day of Christ=Bridegroom (rapture)
2. Day of the Lord= Lord of Lords (MK)
3. Day of God=King of Kings (GWT)

 

[BobRyan]

There is no foot coming down on Mt Olives in Matt 24, in 2Thess2, in Rev 19, in Rev 20 until after the 1000 years.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If we agree that 1 Thess 4 and 2Thess 2 describe the same event - the "Coming of the Lord" --- the "rapture event" -- then it is clear "that day WILL NOT come until the apostacy comes and the lawless one is revealed".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
There is no foot coming down on Mt Olives in Matt 24, in 2Thess2, in Rev 19, in Rev 20 until after the 1000 years.

In Christ,

Bob

until after the 1000 years.

I don't know "Anything" Seven day adventist beliefs, but I "think" I see where we're disagreeing.

As the Charts showed, Jesus "ends" the Six days of "work", and "Rules" over the "Sabbath" (Seventh day) here "ON EARTH".

It's the "LORD'S DAY" (as we call Sunday) or "DAY OF THE LORD".

Re 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.(=one day)


Jesus will be "Ruling" "IN JERUSALEM" during the "Sabbath day". (seventh day)

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain(=kingdom)of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

In case you haven't noticed, the Battle between the "SONS" (Jesus/AC) "ENDS" with Jesus's return,

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

however the war between the "FATHERS" (GOD/SATAN) "DOES NOT END" until the "EIGHTH DAY", or at the GWT.

Re 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Re 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

After the GWT, the "Earth is "burned".

 

[bmerr]

To All,

bmerr here. Has anyone considered that Paul's "man of sin" might be the Pope of Rome? Can you think of anyone who fits Paul's description better? Not to mention specific RC doctrines mentioned in 1 Tim 4:1-3.

IMO, most of Revelation has already come to pass. The two witnesses are the Old and New Testaments, trampled under the feet of the Papacy for over a thousand years.

There are some great articles, including some on the Man of Sin at:

www.trustingodamerica.com

Lots of interesting reading there. I highly recommend it to anyone.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bmerr:
To All,

bmerr here. Has anyone considered that Paul's "man of sin" might be the Pope of Rome? Can you think of anyone who fits Paul's description better? Not to mention specific RC doctrines mentioned in 1 Tim 4:1-3.

IMO, most of Revelation has already come to pass. The two witnesses are the Old and New Testaments, trampled under the feet of the Papacy for over a thousand years.

There are some great articles, including some on the Man of Sin at:

www.trustingodamerica.com

Lots of interesting reading there. I highly recommend it to anyone.

In Christ,

bmerr

This saves a lot of typing.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
If we agree that 1 Thess 4 and 2Thess 2 describe the same event - the "Coming of the Lord" --- the "rapture event" -- then it is clear "that day WILL NOT come until the apostacy comes and the lawless one is revealed".

In Christ,

Bob

Jesus was "Physically Revealed" to the world about 30 years before he was "SPIRITUALLY Revealed" as the Messiah by John.

And the AC will be "Physically present" on earth at the time of the rapture, only to be "SPIRITUAL Revealed"...."AFTER".... the rapture.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, (Physically) the son of perdition;

2Th 2:7 only...HE... (Holy Ghost) who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (rapture)

8 AND THEN shall that Wicked be (Spiritually) revealed,

And I "suspect" the AC will also be a man of about 30 years of age, he "mimics" Jesus in many areas.

 

[bmerr]

How do you suppose it is that the mystery of iniquity was already at work in Paul's day, but would not be revealed until the falling away took place? What withheld was something that the Thessalonians knew about, and the man of sin would continue until the 2nd coming (2 Thes 2:3-8).

Historically, it makes sense that the RCC was the result of the falling away, and that the Roman Empire was that which withheld it. When the western part of the old Roman empire fell, the RCC was given vast political power, which it has covented ever since.

Gotta run.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
OK - so without inserting your other views into the text lets take this one step at a time.

You admit that "our gathering together to Him" is the rapture that we see in 1Thess 4 where we see BOTH the "resurrection of the Dead in Christ" AND the "Coming of our LORD" as promised in John 14 -- BOTH are mentioned there.

And you admit that this is "our gathering together to HIM". Which as it turns out - is the subject of 2Thess2. (A chapter that ALSO mentiones this as "The Coming of our Lord".

But you seem reluctant to allow 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 to speak as they do to that same event.

Why?

In Christ,

Bob

Let just read them.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (HEAVEN)

We go back to HEAVEN with Jesus.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with "MANY =CHURCH)" for one week:=TRIB

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump =VOICE of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Jesus voice, the "HOLY GHOST")

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2Th 2:7 only..HE... who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(restrainer="greater is..HE..(Holy Ghost) in you than HE (satan) who is in the world

8 "AND THEN"...(AFTER) shall that Wicked be revealed,

When Jesus return to the earth in the "day of the Lord", he "STAYS" on the earth for the MK, but in the rapture "WE" return to "HEAVEN" (where he is) with him.

Jesus doesn't send Angels to reap the church, he reaps himself.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by bmerr:
How do you suppose it is that the mystery of iniquity was already at work in Paul's day, but would not be revealed until the falling away took place? What withheld was something that the Thessalonians knew about, and the man of sin would continue until the 2nd coming (2 Thes 2:3-8).

Historically, it makes sense that the RCC was the result of the falling away, and that the Roman Empire was that which withheld it. When the western part of the old Roman empire fell, the RCC was given vast political power, which it has covented ever since.

Gotta run.

In Christ,

bmerr

Scripture has a "DUAL APPLICATION", one "Spiritual", one "literal" to cover both coming of Jesus, with the "SAME CAST" of characters/events.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

Quoted from Bmerr's site: //Denominationalism has been around for
so many years that everybody takes for granted that it is
legitimately supported by the Bible. But there is no such
thing as denominationalism to be found in the teachings of Christ.
Even the word is no where found in the Bible.//

The Church of Christ contradicts itself.

1. Speak where the Bible speaks; be silent where the Bible is silent.

2. The Bible does not speak of Denominationalism.
The COC speaks of Denominationalism.

This is self-contradictory Doctrine.


Personally I think the major part of Revelation
is about a 7-year period not 2/7 of Human
History.

 

[bmerr]

Ed,

bmerr here. The church of Christ speaks against denominationalism in order to point out that it is not authorized by the Scriptures. Actually, since denominations are, by definition, divisions, they are spoken of in Scripture, though not authorized.

Rom 16:17-18 reads,

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Whaddayaknow! Ya'll were in there after all!

You see, Ed, by our speaking against denominationalism, we are speaking where the Bible speaks.

In Christ,

bmerr