3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth......starting Thursday night

[Calminian]

A thesis to consider, regarding the Wednesday/Friday crucifixion debate.

The timeline actually starts Thursday night at Christ's incarceration and ends in the twilight of the morning on Sunday—precisely 3 days and 3 nights.

Christ said he would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights, and I believe this is literal. It is not idiomatic.

I believe he was crucified Friday morning, just as Scripture clearly says. No need for Wednesday or Thursday speculations.

The key is understanding the term heart of the earth. Jesus likened it to Jonah being in he belly of the whale. This is not a metaphor for death per se even in our modern culture. Belly of the beast is a way to describe a dire dangerous circumstance in which someone is at the mercy of someone or something hostile. It's a metaphor for confinement and subjection, as Jonah was subjected to the confinement of the whale until released in Nineveh.

Also, heart of the earth should not be confused with a similar phrase under the earth which refers to death and burial. Earth, in the Bible, refers to land. "And God called the dry land, earth." Earth is often mentioned in contrast with the sea and sky. "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." (Ex. 20:11). Under the land or underground is an obvious reference to burial. Heart of the land likely is not. It would be more akin to our modern term heartland which is definitely not a reference to burial.

When Jesus entered the heart of the earth, he was not speaking of his time in the grave specifically, but to a time in which he would be subject to hostile earthly authorities. This occurred on Thursday night (the start of Friday in jewish thinking). This was the moment he offered himself to the judged by earthly rulers. This was the moment he became sin for us.

And Christ offered himself willingly. It's similar to Jonah's offering, when he offered himself to the sea and the whale for the sake of his shipmates. In the same way, Jesus offered himself to the belly of the beast in Gethsemane, willingly for all humanity.

When Jesus pointed to the sign of Jonah he was speaking of that time he would be under judgment, from Thursday night to Sunday morning. Three days and three nights are represented. Exactly what he predicted.

Thus, no need for a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion. No need for appeals to figurative language regarding 3 days and nights. It all works out beautifully.

 

[Baptist Believer]

This is an interesting premise.

Christ said he would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights, and I believe this is literal. It is not idiomatic.

Is there a specific reason why you assert it is literal? The "heart of the earth" seems to be on its face an idiom, which, in reference to Jonah, would cast three days and nights into the same idiomatic context.

Belly of the beast is a way to describe a dire dangerous circumstance in which someone is at the mercy of someone or something hostile. It's a metaphor for confinement and subjection, as Jonah was subjected to the confinement of the whale until released in Nineveh.

Do you have any evidence that a similar metaphor was used in the Near East, in Koine Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic?

When Jesus pointed to the sign of Jonah he was speaking of that time he would be under judgment, from Thursday night to Sunday morning. Three days and three nights are represented. Exactly what he predicted.

Thus, no need for a Wednesday or Thursday crucifixion. No need for appeals to figurative language regarding 3 days and nights. It all works out beautifully.

It works out, but it is definitely an appeal to figurative language, since "in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40) is figurative, and the phrase, "in the belly of the beast" in modern English is figurative.

 

[Calminian]

...Is there a specific reason why you assert it is literal? The "heart of the earth" seems to be on its face an idiom, which, in reference to Jonah, would cast three days and nights into the same idiomatic context.

Agreed. Heart of the earth would be a metaphor in my thinking. 3 days and 3 nights is often called an idiom simply meaning 2 partial days and 1 full day. The problem is Christ's specific mention of nights. That's the part forcing me to dig further. That's why I considered the Wednesday theory for so long.

Do you have any evidence that a similar metaphor was used in the Near East, in Koine Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic?

Heart of the earth is a term that has been used in jewish tradition. I've heard it is akin to heart of Jerusalem, which is a geographical term, and also used metaphorically, if I understood properly.

It works out, but it is definitely an appeal to figurative language, since "in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40) is figurative, and the phrase, "in the belly of the beast" in modern English is figurative.

Yes, I agree. Jesus was using heart of the earth as a metaphor.

I don't, however, think the 3 days and nights were figurative. I think he really meant 3 days and 3 nights, at minimum partial days and nights, but definitely 3 for each.

But heart of the earth, yes, a metaphor. I just disagree on the consensus opinion that it is a metaphor for the grave. I think it's more akin to our belly of the beast metaphor, a dire dangerous hostile situation. I think Jesus was alluding to the Gethsemane arrest and all that would follow it.

 

[percho]

Assuming the Holy Spirit considered the earth to be a sphere, how far from the heart of the earth, would the lowest parts of the earth, be?

In reality wasn't Jonah considered to be in Sheol / Hades for those three days and three nights Jonah 2:2? Where was Jesus Acts 2:31?

 

[Calminian]

Assuming the Holy Spirit considered the earth to be a sphere, how far from the heart of the earth, would the lowest parts of the earth, be?

And this really is the heart of the misunderstanding, IMO.

Certainly the Holy Spirit understood the structure of planet earth. But term "earth" scripture virtually always refers to land. "And God called the dry land earth" (Gen. 1:10). And earth is often contrasted with the sea. "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." (Ex. 20:11)

Modern minds generally think of earth as planet earth. We also use it for land, but generally we have a land-sea-core unit in mind when we say earth. Scripture doesn't. It views earth as land, in contrast to the sea. This contrast is all over the old and new testaments (Ex. 20:11, Neh. 9:6, Psa. 69:34, Psa. 96:11, Psa. 135:6, Psa. 146:6, Ezek. 38:20, Amos 9:6, Acts 4:24, Acts 14:15, Rev. 10:6, Rev. 12:12, Rev. 14:7, Rev. 21:1). Look up some of these references, if you can.

This is not to say Scripture (authored by the Spirit) denies that the landmasses are on the surface of a spherical planet. You might even find references where earth can be understood as a planet. But the vast number of instances where the word is found in both testaments, it's referring to land. It's not a science issue, it's a nomenclature issue.

On a side note: the term ends of the earth, is not a reference to a flat earth as some charge, but rather to coastlines—the ends of the land. This misunderstanding also stems from nomenclature issue.

Same is true with this term, heart of the earth. It means heart of the land (heartland) and is use metaphorically by Christ to refer to earthly authority or earthly rulers. At least that's the theory I'm positing.

In reality wasn't Jonah considered to be in Sheol / Hades for those three days and three nights Jonah 2:2? Where was Jesus Acts 2:31?

Jonah was confined in a literal whale or fish for 3 days and 3 nights. He was literally in the belly of the beast.

 

[percho]

And this really is the heart of the misunderstanding, IMO.

Certainly the Holy Spirit understood the structure of planet earth. But term "earth" scripture virtually always refers to land. "And God called the dry land earth" (Gen. 1:10). And earth is often contrasted with the sea. "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." (Ex. 20:11)

Modern minds generally think of earth as planet earth. We also use it for land, but generally we have a land-sea-core unit in mind when we say earth. Scripture doesn't. It views earth as land, in contrast to the sea. This contrast is all over the old and new testaments (Ex. 20:11, Neh. 9:6, Psa. 69:34, Psa. 96:11, Psa. 135:6, Psa. 146:6, Ezek. 38:20, Amos 9:6, Acts 4:24, Acts 14:15, Rev. 10:6, Rev. 12:12, Rev. 14:7, Rev. 21:1). Look up some of these references, if you can.

This is not to say Scripture (authored by the Spirit) denies that the landmasses are on the surface of a spherical planet. You might even find references where earth can be understood as a planet. But the vast number of instances where the word is found in both testaments, it's referring to land. It's not a science issue, it's a nomenclature issue.

On a side note: the term ends of the earth, is not a reference to a flat earth as some charge, but rather to coastlines—the ends of the land. This misunderstanding also stems from nomenclature issue.

Same is true with this term, heart of the earth. It means heart of the land (heartland) and is use metaphorically by Christ to refer to earthly authority or earthly rulers. At least that's the theory I'm positing.



Jonah was confined in a literal whale or fish for 3 days and 3 nights. He was literally in the belly of the beast.

And Jehovah appointeth a great fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah is in the bowels of the fish three days and three nights. And Jonah prayeth unto Jehovah his God from the bowels of the fish. And he saith: I called, because of my distress, to Jehovah, And He doth answer me, From the belly of sheol I have cried, Thou hast heard my voice.

Did Jonah consider himself to have been in sheol ; Gk Hades for the three days and three nights?

and is use metaphorically by Christ to refer to earthly authority or earthly rulers.

I would say that the bowels of the fish would be compared to the heart of the earth metaphorical of being in Sheol / Hades.

this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay; Acts 2:23

The only one in authority here is, God.

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

The soul was slain for three days and three nights.

IMHO

 

[Calminian]

And Jehovah appointeth a great fish to swallow up Jonah, and Jonah is in the bowels of the fish three days and three nights. And Jonah prayeth unto Jehovah his God from the bowels of the fish. And he saith: I called, because of my distress, to Jehovah, And He doth answer me, From the belly of sheol I have cried, Thou hast heard my voice.

Did Jonah consider himself to have been in sheol ; Gk Hades for the three days and three nights?

Figuratively, yes, much like we use the phrase, belly of the beast today. Or this is hell, etc. But this text is crystal clear where Jonah literally was.

and is use metaphorically by Christ to refer to earthly authority or earthly rulers.

I would say that the bowels of the fish would be compared to the heart of the earth metaphorical of being in Sheol / Hades.

Yes, and I think it could be used metaphorically of Christ under the authority of men (in the heart of the earth).

The only one in authority here is, God.

God has ultimate authority, but he gives it to governing authorities (Rom. 13). Christ told Pilot he had authority, but he also told Pilot where that authority came from.

John 19:10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”​

According to Jesus, Pilot was given authority. Much like the whale was given authority over Jonah, Pilot was granted temporary authority over Jesus, whether he wanted it or not.

 

[percho]

Figuratively, yes, much like we use the phrase, belly of the beast today. Or this is hell, etc. But this text is crystal clear where Jonah literally was.



Yes, and I think it could be used metaphorically of Christ under the authority of men (in the heart of the earth).



God has ultimate authority, but he gives it to governing authorities (Rom. 13). Christ told Pilot he had authority, but he also told Pilot where that authority came from.

John 19:10 Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”

John 19:11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”​

According to Jesus, Pilot was given authority. Much like the whale was given authority over Jonah, Pilot was granted temporary authority over Jesus, whether he wanted it or not.

I am going to give this one more shot.

Acts 2:27 because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption; --- David wrote in PS 16:10 However
'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; Acts 2:29 ---The soul David on the day Peter was speaking was still in hades and his flesh had seen corruption. See Acts 13:36

Verse 31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.


When do you believe the soul Jesus departed hades?
When do you believe the soul Jesus passed through the gates into hades?

How long to you believe the soul Jesus was in hades?

 

[Calminian]

I am going to give this one more shot.

Acts 2:27 because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption; --- David wrote in PS 16:10 However
'Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day; Acts 2:29 ---The soul David on the day Peter was speaking was still in hades and his flesh had seen corruption. See Acts 13:36

Verse 31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.


When do you believe the soul Jesus departed hades?
When do you believe the soul Jesus passed through the gates into hades?

How long to you believe the soul Jesus was in hades?

Sounds metaphorical to me, especially speaking of the soul instead of the Spirit.

And even Paul wasn't sure if he was actually in heaven or if it was a vision. Jonah's statement sounds metaphorical.

 

[percho]

Sounds metaphorical to me, especially speaking of the soul instead of the Spirit.

And even Paul wasn't sure if he was actually in heaven or if it was a vision. Jonah's statement sounds metaphorical.

From Luke 23:46 Πάτερ εἰς χεῖράς σου παραθήσομαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου
------------------------Father into the hands of you I shall be placing the spirit of me

Jesus committed the spirit of himself into the hands of the Father.

From Luke 23:46 and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Does that sound like what is stated in Ecc 12:7? And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

What do you think the Father did with the spirit of Jesus.?

Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead --Gal 1:1
and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Rom 8:11

having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption Acts 2:31

They took, therefore, the body of Jesus, and bound it with linen clothes with the spices, according as it was the custom of the Jews to prepare for burial; and there was in the place where he was crucified a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one was yet laid; there, therefore, because of the preparation of the Jews, because the tomb was nigh, they laid Jesus. John 19:40-42

metaphorical?

What is metaphorical?

 

[Calminian]

From Luke 23:46 Πάτερ εἰς χεῖράς σου παραθήσομαι τὸ πνεῦμά μου
------------------------Father into the hands of you I shall be placing the spirit of me

Jesus committed the spirit of himself into the hands of the Father.

From Luke 23:46 and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Does that sound like what is stated in Ecc 12:7? And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

What do you think the Father did with the spirit of Jesus.?

Irrelevant to the thread. Jesus, I believe, proclaimed victory to spirits while he was in the grave (under the earth, as the metaphor goes). But that's not the issue discussed here.

The issue here is the term heart of the earth. Was Jesus speaking of his time in the grave with this specific term, or was he referring to something broader. You're arguing a different issue. I would agree, that while Jesus was in the grave was in hades (not hell) proclaiming victory. But I don't believe the actual grave time was 3 days and 3 nights he spoke of to the pharisees.

My view has no bearing one what Jesus did while in the grave.

 

[37818]

There is an historical date for the crucifixion. Mark 14:12-16 makes only one date possible on the Jewish calendar. Jesus and His disciples ate the 14th of Nisan Passover that evening of the 15th of Nisan, Mark 14:17. Jesus being betrayed that night, placing His crucifixion on the day of the 15th of Nisan. And because that day was type of Sabbath, where food could still be prepared but no other types of work could be done Joseph of Arimathaea being Jewish had to wait till the next eveing of 16th when the 15th was over. It was our Thrusday eveng the begining of the Jewish Preparation day before the 7th day Sabbath, Mark 15:42.

 

[percho]

When do you believe the soul Jesus departed hades?
When do you believe the soul Jesus,by death, passed through the gates into (entered) hades?

If, from entered to departed, is three days and three nights therein is the heart of the earth?

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day

Can after killed, and rising, the third day and after three days be anything other than three days and three nights?

Mark 9:31 negates the heart of the earth as having anything to being under authority of men>

IMHO

 

[Origen]

Heart of the earth is a term that has been used in jewish tradition.

Are there any second temple period sources for this Jewish tradition?

 

[percho]

There is an historical date for the crucifixion. Mark 14:12-16 makes only one date possible on the Jewish calendar. Jesus and His disciples ate the 14th of Nisan Passover that evening of the 15th of Nisan, Mark 14:17. Jesus being betrayed that night, placing His crucifixion on the day of the 15th of Nisan. And because that day was type of Sabbath, where food could still be prepared but no other types of work could be done Joseph of Arimathaea being Jewish had to wait till the next eveing of 16th when the 15th was over. It was our Thrusday eveng the begining of the Jewish Preparation day before the 7th day Sabbath, Mark 15:42.

in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah; and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat; on the first day ye have a holy convocation, ye do no servile work; Lev 23:5-7
'And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings; Ex 12:6

Did the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, have to die, on the fourteenth day of the first month between the two evenings?

The fourteenth day was the preparation for the fifteenth day, the day of holy convocation, the day of rest, See Lev above.

 

[37818]

When do you believe the soul Jesus departed hades?
When do you believe the soul Jesus,by death, passed through the gates into (entered) hades?

If, from entered to departed, is three days and three nights therein is the heart of the earth?

Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
Mark 9:31 For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day

Can after killed, and rising, the third day and after three days be anything other than three days and three nights?

Mark 9:31 negates the heart of the earth as having anything to being under authority of men>

IMHO

The three days can be counted three ways. The day of the 15th in which He died. The Perperation day being already dead, second day. The Sabbath day a third day, after which He rose from the dead. From His burial the evening following His death, the first day of Him being in His tomb the Perpration day, the Sabbath being the second day, being raised one the next morning being the third day. Two whole days and part of a third day.

Now I am of the persuasion that Paradise was the upper compartment of Hades (Psalms 86:13) prior to His ascension to Heaven (Acts 1:11; Ephesians 4:8).

According to Luke 24:21 the day of His resurrection was the third day after His crucifixion.

 

[37818]

in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah; and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat; on the first day ye have a holy convocation, ye do no servile work; Lev 23:5-7
'And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it between the evenings; Ex 12:6

Did the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world, have to die, on the fourteenth day of the first month between the two evenings?

The fourteenth day was the preparation for the fifteenth day, the day of holy convocation, the day of rest, See Lev above.

Mark 14:12, ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." This day, Mark 14:12-16 was before the 15th. Exodus 12:18, ". . . In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. . . ." The 21st day would not be unlevened bread, the days begin with its evening. So the feast of unlevend bread which being on the 15th only has 6 days of unleavend bread, Deuteronomy 16:8, ". . . Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein. . . ." The 7th day being the 21st.

 

[percho]

The three days can be counted three ways. The day of the 15th in which He died. The Perperation day being already dead, second day. The Sabbath day a third day, after which He rose from the dead. From His burial the evening following His death, the first day of Him being in His tomb the Perpration day, the Sabbath being the second day, being raised one the next morning being the third day. Two whole days and part of a third day.

Now I am of the persuasion that Paradise was the upper compartment of Hades (Psalms 86:13) prior to His ascension to Heaven (Acts 1:11; Ephesians 4:8).

According to Luke 24:21 the day of His resurrection was the third day after His crucifixion.

I believe he died on the 14th about 3 pm not the 15th. The 14th was the preparation day for the upcoming high day sabbath, the 15th a holy convocation day, day of rest.

The 15th began at sundown after Jesus died.

Relative to: According to Luke 24:21 the day of His resurrection was the third day after His crucifixion ---
3 Day and Nights Recovered-Decoding Luke 24:21

 

[percho]

Mark 14:12, ". . . the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, . . ." This day, Mark 14:12-16 was before the 15th. Exodus 12:18, ". . . In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even. . . ." The 21st day would not be unlevened bread, the days begin with its evening. So the feast of unlevend bread which being on the 15th only has 6 days of unleavend bread, Deuteronomy 16:8, ". . . Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein. . . ." The 7th day being the 21st.

Correct. They ate unleavened bread from the 14th to the 20th then the 21st was a holy convocation, rest day.

 

[37818]

I believe he died on the 14th about 3 pm not the 15th. The 14th was the preparation day for the upcoming high day sabbath, the 15th a holy convocation day, day of rest.

The 15th began at sundown after Jesus died.

Relative to: According to Luke 24:21 the day of His resurrection was the third day after His crucifixion ---
3 Day and Nights Recovered-Decoding Luke 24:21

Then what was the Passover of Mark 14:12-16?