Then again...no one asked you did they?
I told you if I want to hear your thoughts I would ask you by name.
I have not asked. You have lost all credibility.
Your dishonest posting is not something I care to read.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
3 John
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
I told you if I want to hear your thoughts I would ask you by name.
I have not asked. You have lost all credibility.
Your dishonest posting is not something I care to read.
Iconoclast made the scriptural claim that God has given teachers to the church through history from Eph4:11-16.
Iconoclast never said God gave us books.
Iconoclast demonstrated 4 times how Neh.8:8 works.
Notice JonC violates his own sticky note with the dreaded funny emoji.
On this whole thread Jonc violates Squires libel sticky note quite often.
Of course when you violate it....it is mature. Lol.
On this whole thread Jonc violates Squires libel sticky note quite often.
Of course when you violate it....it is mature. Lol.
Scripture has to be the authority for our doctrine, otherwise we are our own authorities (doctrine becomes measured by a subjective standard).
We have to be careful not to use Scripture to prop up our understanding but instead to derive our understanding from God's Word
In terms of God gifting teachers, I do not see where these are authors or books. A teacher teaches. When we read books we may learn, but we are teaching ourselves.
What we need are strong teachers in our churches, Christians who will take people under their wing and mentor them.
But we also need more Christians who are teachable, who will listen to those around them rather than approaching the faith as a self-help project.
We have to be careful not to use Scripture to prop up our understanding but instead to derive our understanding from God's Word
In terms of God gifting teachers, I do not see where these are authors or books. A teacher teaches. When we read books we may learn, but we are teaching ourselves.
What we need are strong teachers in our churches, Christians who will take people under their wing and mentor them.
But we also need more Christians who are teachable, who will listen to those around them rather than approaching the faith as a self-help project.
No. If you learned from the books then you taught yourself.
If books or authors teach them we definitely need no other teacher than God and His Word.
But God gifts teachers and He works in both the teacher and the pupil.
Too many Christians forsake the assembly....not that they are not present but that they are not functioning within that body. Christianity is not a solo event.
@Iconoclast
There is no reason for you to insult me or any other member. In life you will find views that are opposed to your own. And on discussion boards Christians will express their views.
There is a benefit to placing your understanding out there. Others will criticize your views but it is an opportunity to revisit them, to refine them, to change them, or to strengthen them.
You hold a minority position within Christianity, which is fine and in itself does not mean your view is incorrect.
But it does mean that most Christians disagree with your position. If you engage with Christians outside of your sect you will meet Christians who stand in opposition to your understanding.
It is not you they oppose, but the positions you hold. Likewise, it should not be the brethern you oppose but the views with which you disagree.
You and I have had some good conversation. You are my brother and I love you in Christ. I disagree with your position, and you with mine. It is that simple. I have not lied, and I assume you have not as well. We each state and argue our positions and against the positions of the other as we understand them.
It is good to seek out God's Word. Here are the passages @Iconoclast offered:
Nehemiah 8:1–12 And all the people gathered as one man at the square which was in front of the Water Gate, and they asked Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the Lord had given to Israel.Then Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly of men, women and all who could listen with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month.He read from it before the square which was in front of the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of men and women, those who could understand; and all the people were attentive to the book of the law. Ezra the scribe stood at a wooden podium which they had made for the purpose. And beside him stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah on his right hand; and Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah and Meshullam on his left hand.Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up.Then Ezra blessed the Lord the great God. And all the people answered, “Amen, Amen!” while lifting up their hands; then they bowed low and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, the Levites, explained the law to the people while the people remained in their place. They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading.
“This Day Is Holy”
Then Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the Lord your God; do not mourn or weep.” For all the people were weeping when they heard the words of the law. Then he said to them, “Go, eat of the fat, drink of the sweet, and send portions to him who has nothing prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.” So the Levites calmed all the people, saying, “Be still, for the day is holy; do not be grieved.” All the people went away to eat, to drink, to send portions and to celebrate a great festival, because they understood the words which had been made known to them.
Ephesians 4:1–16 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Nehemiah 8:1–12 And all the people gathered as one man at the square which was in front of the Water Gate, and they asked Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the Lord had given to Israel.Then Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly of men, women and all who could listen with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month.He read from it before the square which was in front of the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of men and women, those who could understand; and all the people were attentive to the book of the law. Ezra the scribe stood at a wooden podium which they had made for the purpose. And beside him stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah on his right hand; and Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah and Meshullam on his left hand.Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up.Then Ezra blessed the Lord the great God. And all the people answered, “Amen, Amen!” while lifting up their hands; then they bowed low and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, the Levites, explained the law to the people while the people remained in their place. They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading.
“This Day Is Holy”
Then Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the Lord your God; do not mourn or weep.” For all the people were weeping when they heard the words of the law. Then he said to them, “Go, eat of the fat, drink of the sweet, and send portions to him who has nothing prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.” So the Levites calmed all the people, saying, “Be still, for the day is holy; do not be grieved.” All the people went away to eat, to drink, to send portions and to celebrate a great festival, because they understood the words which had been made known to them.
Ephesians 4:1–16 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
Let's look at the first verse @Iconoclast pointed out:
Nehemiah 8:1–12 And all the people gathered as one man at the square which was in front of the Water Gate, and they asked Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the Lord had given to Israel.Then Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly of men, women and all who could listen with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month.He read from it before the square which was in front of the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of men and women, those who could understand; and all the people were attentive to the book of the law. Ezra the scribe stood at a wooden podium which they had made for the purpose. And beside him stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah on his right hand; and Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah and Meshullam on his left hand.Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up.Then Ezra blessed the Lord the great God. And all the people answered, “Amen, Amen!” while lifting up their hands; then they bowed low and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, the Levites, explained the law to the people while the people remained in their place. They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading.
“This Day Is Holy”
Then Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the Lord your God; do not mourn or weep.” For all the people were weeping when they heard the words of the law. Then he said to them, “Go, eat of the fat, drink of the sweet, and send portions to him who has nothing prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.” So the Levites calmed all the people, saying, “Be still, for the day is holy; do not be grieved.” All the people went away to eat, to drink, to send portions and to celebrate a great festival, because they understood the words which had been made known to them.
Does this passage really support the idea of God giving Reformed teachers via books to be our teachers today?
OR....does the passage show God giving Ezra, Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, and Pelaiah as teachers to teach what was written to their immediate audience?
@SovereignGrace and Icon indicate the former. BUT what was the text? It was Scripture. What did the teachers do? They taught Scripture.
Nehemiah 8 does not contradict what I have been saying. God has gifted men as teachers. When we read a book we are teaching ourselves. A teacher does much more than simply provide words or a lesson for the student to read. A teacher teaches.
Nehemiah 8:1–12 And all the people gathered as one man at the square which was in front of the Water Gate, and they asked Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses which the Lord had given to Israel.Then Ezra the priest brought the law before the assembly of men, women and all who could listen with understanding, on the first day of the seventh month.He read from it before the square which was in front of the Water Gate from early morning until midday, in the presence of men and women, those who could understand; and all the people were attentive to the book of the law. Ezra the scribe stood at a wooden podium which they had made for the purpose. And beside him stood Mattithiah, Shema, Anaiah, Uriah, Hilkiah, and Maaseiah on his right hand; and Pedaiah, Mishael, Malchijah, Hashum, Hashbaddanah, Zechariah and Meshullam on his left hand.Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people for he was standing above all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up.Then Ezra blessed the Lord the great God. And all the people answered, “Amen, Amen!” while lifting up their hands; then they bowed low and worshiped the Lord with their faces to the ground.Also Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, the Levites, explained the law to the people while the people remained in their place. They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading.
“This Day Is Holy”
Then Nehemiah, who was the governor, and Ezra the priest and scribe, and the Levites who taught the people said to all the people, “This day is holy to the Lord your God; do not mourn or weep.” For all the people were weeping when they heard the words of the law. Then he said to them, “Go, eat of the fat, drink of the sweet, and send portions to him who has nothing prepared; for this day is holy to our Lord. Do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.” So the Levites calmed all the people, saying, “Be still, for the day is holy; do not be grieved.” All the people went away to eat, to drink, to send portions and to celebrate a great festival, because they understood the words which had been made known to them.
Does this passage really support the idea of God giving Reformed teachers via books to be our teachers today?
OR....does the passage show God giving Ezra, Jeshua, Bani, Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodiah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, and Pelaiah as teachers to teach what was written to their immediate audience?
@SovereignGrace and Icon indicate the former. BUT what was the text? It was Scripture. What did the teachers do? They taught Scripture.
Nehemiah 8 does not contradict what I have been saying. God has gifted men as teachers. When we read a book we are teaching ourselves. A teacher does much more than simply provide words or a lesson for the student to read. A teacher teaches.
The other passage @Iconoclast suggested is Ephesians 4:11–16. Let's look at the passage:
Ephesians 4:1–16 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
This passage certainly supports the truth that God has given teachers to churches. But does it support the idea that several hundred years ago God gave Reformed teachers to write books for us to learn how to properly interpret Scripture?
I do not believe so. Why believe that God ceased gifting churches with the gifts He promised? Each church should be gifted with servants necessary to function as a body.
Ephesians 4:1–16 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.” 9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
This passage certainly supports the truth that God has given teachers to churches. But does it support the idea that several hundred years ago God gave Reformed teachers to write books for us to learn how to properly interpret Scripture?
I do not believe so. Why believe that God ceased gifting churches with the gifts He promised? Each church should be gifted with servants necessary to function as a body.
JonC,
You have offered nothing but insults on the last 7 threads,
You have offered nothing but insults on the last 7 threads,
Damage control...John has posted foul things, now trying to cover it up by offering a multitude of posts off topic at that,lol
If you took it that way, my apologies. Perhaps my concern for doctrine influenced my replies to you. I don't know. I really am not emotionally connected to these posts.
Regardless, we have to seek out God's Word, not the opinions of men who have gone before. Their views may prove helpful, but the text of Scripture has to be the standard by which we test doctrine.
If by "foul" you mean galliformes, it is spelled with a "w".
If you mean I have posted immoral things, then you are mistaken. Most Christians disagree with your theology. That in itself does not make your position incorrect. But it is not immoral to disagree with you.
Most on the BB probably disagree with me. And that is fine. They are still by Christian family and I care about them. There is a difference between rejecting ones doctrine and rejecting a brother.
You hold a minority position within Christianity, so when you interact with other Christians there is a good chance you will encounter brothers who disagree with you.
If you interact you need to realize that a disagreement is not a personal rejection of you. Your responses are emotional, not reasonable. I do not reject you as a brother even though I do reject your theology as unbilical.
The focus on the Word will most often bring two results.
Just as it was in the day that The Word dwelt among us physically, there were mostly two responses.
We believers who have long been spreading the seed of the word have seen these two responses in action in every instance.
Either there will be agreement and unity or there will be separation.
In my calls for focus upon the Word, I am not calling for agreement of view(s), but unity upon the authority of the Scriptures as the determination of faith and practice.
One may view the physical sun as too hot while one on the beach getting a tan may think it perfect. Does it make any difference to the sun?
The Scriptures are the Scriptures and they are not changed by one considering a view or not agreeing with some other view.
What is changed if one adds or takes away from the Scriptures.
Upon THAT we all agree to contend for the Scriptures - the true statements the Scriptures present - the standard the Scriptures hold - the satisfaction the Scriptures bring.
Luther and I would no doubt disagree, yet, he was right in his view of the Scriptures as that authority in which we must all accept.
Just as it was in the day that The Word dwelt among us physically, there were mostly two responses.
We believers who have long been spreading the seed of the word have seen these two responses in action in every instance.
Either there will be agreement and unity or there will be separation.
In my calls for focus upon the Word, I am not calling for agreement of view(s), but unity upon the authority of the Scriptures as the determination of faith and practice.
One may view the physical sun as too hot while one on the beach getting a tan may think it perfect. Does it make any difference to the sun?
The Scriptures are the Scriptures and they are not changed by one considering a view or not agreeing with some other view.
What is changed if one adds or takes away from the Scriptures.
Upon THAT we all agree to contend for the Scriptures - the true statements the Scriptures present - the standard the Scriptures hold - the satisfaction the Scriptures bring.
Luther and I would no doubt disagree, yet, he was right in his view of the Scriptures as that authority in which we must all accept.
They teach within churches ,yes.
If they go outside their local church and teach in another local church, does their teaching cease to be solid for some reason?
Paul while an Apostle taught this way, and desired it;
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.
13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
YES This twisting happens everyday.
Paul was an evangelist proclaiming the gospel, hence his desire that he might have some fruit among them also, even among other Gentiles.
That said, I think churches can benefit from a close relationship where teachers visit among the churches.
My point is that Reformed teachers of the past were not given to us in the present. We have their writings, which are not useless but are also not our teachers.
When we read a book we teach ourselves.
When a teacher comes to a church their teachings should be tested against God's Word. If their teaching does not align with Scripture then they have exceeded their authority as a God given teacher.
Owen, for all I like of his writings exceeded his authority as a God given teacher. But he was only human.
JonC,
Once again...I did not ask for your libel and slander here.
Once again...I did not ask for your libel and slander here.
I understand. But I was not addressing you, brother.
It is neither liable or slander (by definition). And it is correct.
You do reject Scripture as I define Scripture. And you have said....many times.....that you believe what is important is what you think Scripture "teaches" when "properly understood'. You even gave examples of people in the Bible explaining and teaching, supposing they were providing explanation rather than allowing Scripture to explain Scripture (taking Isaiah and saying...."see, this happened").
JonC,
[QUOTE]Show me where I said Iconoclast places Reformed writings above and beyond Scripture.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Show me where I said Iconoclast places Reformed writings above and beyond Scripture.[/QUOTE]
maybe it would be better to quote Iconoclast directly, as you twist what he said.Is that too much to ask?