6 Myths of the Non-Cal Position

[convicted1]

It is to be sure



Uh no im not. I am most likely the most disagreable with cals. Not so much because of your doctrine but because of just exactly what you have been doing.

Look Brother, all I am saying is that if someone disagrees with me, that's fine. But do so with the word of God. I don't believe in someone losing their salvation, but I see where those who think we can are coming from. I don't agree with the pre-trib rapture, but I see where those who believe it to be truth are coming from. They are using the bible to support their beliefs. But what steaver's been purporting, neither side, Cal or Non-Cal, can see where he's coming from, because it's foreign to the bible. He's spitting on the preaching of the gospel....

 

[Revmitchell]

Look Brother, all I am saying is that if someone disagrees with me, that's fine. But do so with the word of God. I don't believe in someone losing their salvation, but I see where those who think we can are coming from. I don't agree with the pre-trib rapture, but I see where those who believe it to be truth are coming from. They are using the bible to support their beliefs. But what steaver's been purporting, neither side, Cal or Non-Cal, can see where he's coming from, because it's foreign to the bible.

I agree

He's spitting on the preaching of the gospel....

This is where you lose it. Just not necessary. I still think you do this because it attacks your pet doctrine.

 

[convicted1]

I agree

:thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup::thumbs:

This is where you lose it. Just not necessary. I still think you do this because it attacks your pet doctrine.

Nope. Calvinism and Arminianism have been found to be within the confines of orthodoxy, correct? That what steaver just posted isn't within 1,000,000 miles of orthodoxy....

 

[The Biblicist]

Myths of Non-Cals

I decided to start this thread in response to the “Myths of Calvinists” thread. Firstly, as with every “camp” of beliefs, there will be variances from what I post here.

Quite true.

1 – Non-Cals believe you must work with God to be saved (synergism).

Non-Cals believe that God did all the work. The only requirement for us is to allow Him to do what He will. We do nothing. There is absolutely nothing we can do in and of ourselves to be saved. God has already completed the work, and is simply waiting on us to open the door.

How then would you interpret the word "work" in the following verse then:

Jn. 6:28 ¶ Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Is faith a "work" the "we might work"??? Do you regard faith as a "work" that man does? You said we are the ones who "open the door"! I take it that you believe Rev. 3:21 is addressed to lost persons instead of the church members in that context as you are applying it to lost persons in your statement. David and Paul say that no lost person "seeketh" after God (Psa. 14:2; Rom. 3:10-11).

If God wanted, He could take anyone and everyone to Heaven, crush Satan right now, and be done with it.

He could not do so without making Himself a liar as that would directly contradict His own Word to the contrary. For example, Jesus claimed that the only ones that the only ones he gives eternal life to are "as many as the Father hast given him" - Jn. 17:2 The words "hast given him" is found in the Perfect tense - thus a completed action at some time in the past prior to his incarnation (Jn. 6:38 - as he came down from heaven in response to the Father already having given them to him to save).

Moreover, Paul plainly states that the salvation of all that the Father hast given him is "TO salvation THROUGH the sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth" (2 Thes. 2:13). God's sovereignty cannot create another God nor can it make God a liar as the Bible explicitly states that God cannot lie. However, your assertion says God can lie and do exactly what His Word says He will not do.

He has just decided to give us the choice, rather than make it for us.

First, state our position correctly. We do not believe that God chooses for the elect. We believe that God gives us a "new" heart which is different from the "old" heart. The "old" heart loves sin and is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed CAN be - Rom. 8:7. The "new" heart is the exact opposite of the "old" heart or else it would not be "new" but just the same. Hence, it is a heart that loves righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and is by its very nature submissive to God - that is the definition of willingness to obey God's commands. It is willing because God WRITES HIS LAW upon the heart (2 Cor. 3:3) = gives it a heart for His Law. It is willing because God creates "in our hearts" the very "light of knowledge of the glory of God IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST" (2 Cor. 4:6) thus dispelling the spiritual darkness that previously existed in the heart and he did it by divine fiat exactly as He called light out of darkness in Genesis 1:2-3 "For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness HATH SHINED IN OUR HEARTS TO GIVE the light "- 2 Cor. 4:6. In direct contrast you believe the "old" heart can do exactly what God says it cannot do. What God does is give us a WILLING HEART that willing chooses rather than God choosing for us.

3 – Non-Cals believe man can just decide to get saved.

This couldn’t be farther from the truth. Man cannot decide to be saved on his own timetable. There must be the drawing of the Holy Spirit. When man feels that conviction, that drawing, it is then he must make his choice.

In context, your type of drawing has no existence in scripture. Jesus explicitly states that some of his own disciples that professed faith in in him false professors that were NEVER DRAWN by the Father (Jn. 6:64-65) and therefore Christ may draw "all men" without distinction of class, race, or gender but he certainly does not draw "all men" without exception as here are some Jesus explicity denies were ever drawn by the Father. The words "therefore I said unto you" in verse 65 is being given as the explanatory response to their "unbelief" in verse 64. The "therefore I said" is a direct reference to John 6:44 and thus a direct denial that such were ever drawn by the Father.

4 – Non-Cal beliefs damn some people to Hell.

It’s been said that under the non-Cal system, remote islanders and such are damned to Hell because they’ve never heard the Gospel. The prominent belief is that God knows who would reject Him and who would receive Him if given the chance, and He makes sure that those who would receive Him has a chance. If an islander would receive Him, someone will at some time show them the gospel. This is kind of like the point in the Calvinist thread, about God working with man’s will. God will make sure that there is someone who will go. If one is unwilling, that one will lose out on the blessings God had for him, and another will take his place.

It is not a guessing game with God about who will be saved. The perfect tense "hast given" in John 17:2 and in John 6:38 declares that has been determined at least before Christ came down from heaven and therefore BEFORE any of those given to Christ actually came to him by faith (Jn. 6:37). Not merely before the first advent but
before the world began (2 Thes. 2:13; Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:7). The perfect tense simply denies the possibility that coming to Christ is achievable apart from first having been given to Christ and drawing is part of being given or have you failed to see the same exact phrase that closes John 6:39 is what closes Jn. 6:44. In all three cases, the pronoun "him" or "it" has its immediate antecedent those given and drawn showing that being given by the Father is inclusive of being drawn by the Father. It obviously had been settled prior to the advent of Christ as Christ explicitly states that he came down from heaven for the very purpose to secure the salvation of all those the Father had already given him (perfect tense - Jn. 6:38-39). No matter how you try, you cannot make John 17:2 read or mean the very opposite of what it actually says. The giving has already been done before Christ came (Jn. 6:38) and so the coming is the result of already having been given (Jn. 6:37).


Look at the future tense "shall come" demanding that coming is the consequence not the cause of having been given to Christ (Jn. 6:37). They don't come IN ORDER TO BE GIVEN by the Father to Christ, they come because they have already been given (perfect tense) by the Father to Christ. That is why "OF ALL" who are given NOT ONE FAILS TO COME - Jn. 6:39. Not one fails to come because these are the ones DRAWN by the Father and NO MAN comes to Christ but those drawn and the drawn do come (Jn. 6:44). Every single solitary use of the word translated "draw" in the New Testament demands what is being drawn is coming simeltaneously with being drawn. The only instance where this is not true is where the one drawing is without power to pull in a net full of fish, however, God is NEVER without power.

The bottom line is that your intepretation that "all men" WITHOUT EXCEPTION is simply false as John 6:64-65 is a clear EXCEPTION. The context of John 12:20-32 is ignored as it is dealing with GREEKS who wish to see Christ and Christ is declaring to Jews who believe salvation is restricted to them, that "all men" WITHOUT DISTINCTION in race, class or gender will be drawn to Christ or the "whole world" - meaning "all nations, races, classes and genders (Rev. 5:8) not all human beings without exception as vast number are already in hell when he said this. People do not go to hell because of unbelief, as many generations of tribal people have never heard the gospel and died in that state. There are many modern examples of this where the gospel has first come to an indigent people who testified that their generations of father's and grandfathers and great grand fathers were pagan and never heard the gospel and died in that state. People go to hell because of willful sin against their own conscience.

Here is the truth you need to grasp. Nothing prevents the salvation of the most wicked human but their own depraved resistant refusal to please God, and nothing obtains the salvation of the most moral human but God's mercy, and "he will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy" and so it is not him that WILLETH or him that RUNNETH but God that sheweth mercy as NEITHER deserves salvation and both equally deserve wrath (Jn. 3:36) and NEITHER would come to Christ of their own choosing AND GOD IS UNDER NBLIGATION TO EITHER CHOOSE TO SAVE ANY SINNER OR SAVE ANY SINNER as He is perfectly just to allow one to go right on their way to hell while abritrarily according to His own will save another one who equally deserves hell as either hell or salvation glorify His Justice and grace as all equally deserve hell. The potter has the right to do what he wishes with fallen mankind. This is the true meaning of saved by "grace" -

 

[thatbrian]

Very Good! :thumbsup: Also under #4, even if another person does not preach to these isolated individuals, it has been reported abroad how some have been visited by an angel in dreams or even Jesus Christ Himself, which sparked a harvest of sheep for God in remote areas. God is not limited to us, God is Sovereign and can do as He so pleases, even allowing folks to make a freewill choice if He so pleases.

Steve,

I'm afraid that you are outside of orthodoxy with your comment. Absolutely no biblical backing for this; however, I see how it could be tempting to hold such an idea as it covers a huge flaw in Arminian theology.

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

 

[kyredneck]

Myths of Non-Cals...

....Hopefully this list will illuminate the non-Cal position a little more....

Yea, it illuminated once again that a lot of synergists, for whatever reason, resent being tagged for what they are:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

Is that too simple for you?

 

[convicted1]

Yea, it illuminated once again that a lot of synergists, for whatever reason, resent being tagged for what they are:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

Is that too simple for you?

It all stems from their misunderstanding of regeneration. Regeneration leads to conversion but ain't conversion, but rather, being born from above...

 

[convicted1]

Steve,

I'm afraid that you are outside of orthodoxy with your comment. Absolutely no biblical backing for this; however, I see how it could be tempting to hold such an idea as it covers a huge flaw in Arminian theology.

"How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?"

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

Wonderful job there!!! Kudos!! Take a bow!!


You have just spit in the face of every missionary that ever hazzarded their life to further the gospel of Jesus Christ and some even died doing so. This gnosticism you've promoted here needs to go. God saves by the gospel, and no, not Calvinism/TULIP, so don't even go there.


You can not find one verse to support this, and since the canon of scriptures is closed now, God works via the gospel of Jesus Christ. God speaks to us now via His written word.


No preaching of the gospel means no saving of the soul.

I see another Calvinist limiting the sovereignty of God, yet again.

So you are saying that man, and only man, can deliver God's word.

What is your response to the thousands of Muslims that have become Christians due to having dreams and visions of Christ?

Are you going to tell them they are not saved?

 

[The Biblicist]

What is your response to the thousands of Muslims that have become Christians due to having dreams and visions of Christ?

Are you going to tell them they are not saved?

What documentation do you have that any muslims were saved merely by visions and dreams without any exposure to the gospel???

 

[InTheLight]

You can not find one verse to support this, and since the canon of scriptures is closed now, God works via the gospel of Jesus Christ. God speaks to us now via His written word.

No preaching of the gospel means no saving of the soul.

Galatians 1:11-12 NIV
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

 

[steaver]

Galatians 1:11-12 NIV
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Now look! God is not allowed to work without the cooperation of man. Now wait a minute, I thought Calvinism says God does not need any cooperation from man? Oh but God In His Soverneity Chooses to let man cooperate with Him, if they so freely choose to. I guess whenever it is conveint foe the sake of a doctrine.

 

[steaver]

I see another Calvinist limiting the sovereignty of God, yet again.

So you are saying that man, and only man, can deliver God's word.

What is your response to the thousands of Muslims that have become Christians due to having dreams and visions of Christ?

Are you going to tell them they are not saved?

Nope. God ain't saving any of them. Don't care how much they praise and worship Jesus Christ as God. They are all lying!!!!!

 

[convicted1]

I see another Calvinist limiting the sovereignty of God, yet again.

So you are saying that man, and only man, can deliver God's word.

What is your response to the thousands of Muslims that have become Christians due to having dreams and visions of Christ?

Are you going to tell them they are not saved?

Yes, they're not saved. That's a mystical approach. Got any scriptures to support your claims? Since the canon of scriptures were closed, God hasn't revealed Himself in dreams to those who haven't heard the gospel. Salvation comes via the gospel, period. I didn't make it that way, God did.

 

[convicted1]

Galatians 1:11-12 NIV
I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

Jesus knocked Saul off a horse. He had been exposed to the gospel, seeing he was persecuting(sp?) the church. Saul was a chosen vessel to preach the....gasp...gospel to the gentiles. Were they knocked off a horse? We're they blinded by the Light?

 

[convicted1]

Now look! God is not allowed to work without the cooperation of man. Now wait a minute, I thought Calvinism says God does not need any cooperation from man? Oh but God In His Soverneity Chooses to let man cooperate with Him, if they so freely choose to. I guess whenever it is conveint foe the sake of a doctrine.

Here are some verses that fit you to a 'T'....

Matt. 22:29 & Acts 8:31....

As Brother Aaron told someone else, "You are the prime example of why the RCC kept the bible out of laypersons' hands'. You mangle them to fit your belief(s)...

 

[InTheLight]

Jesus knocked Saul off a horse. He had been exposed to the gospel, seeing he was persecuting(sp?) the church. Saul was a chosen vessel to preach the....gasp...gospel to the gentiles. Were they knocked off a horse? We're they blinded by the Light?

You asked for scripture, I provided scripture. Paul received the Gospel as a revelation from Jesus Christ.

Muslims are saying they are receiving revelations during dreams. Why would someone claim they are having soul changing dreams in a culture that can put them to death for saying such a thing?

 

[blessedwife318]

The idea that Gospel preaching is not necessary for people to get saved is appalling. Not to mention its in direct violation of Romans 10:14-17
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

By the Way I find it ironic that one of the charges that is leveled against Reformed Theology is that it negates the preaching of the Gospel since God will save who He is going to save, and yet we now have Arminians saying that they don't need to preach the Gospel because dreams and visions will do it for them.

 

[convicted1]

You asked for scripture, I provided scripture. Paul received the Gospel as a revelation from Jesus Christ.

Muslims are saying they are receiving revelations during dreams. Why would someone claim they are having soul changing dreams in a culture that can put them to death for saying such a thing?

The canons of scriptures are closed now. Salvation comes via the gospel and not in visions and dreams, Brother. That's purly mysticism...

 

[InTheLight]

Yes, they're not saved. That's a mystical approach. Got any scriptures to support your claims? Since the canon of scriptures were closed, God hasn't revealed Himself in dreams to those who haven't heard the gospel. Salvation comes via the gospel, period. I didn't make it that way, God did.

Acts 2:17 NIV

“ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on ~all~ people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

These Muslims are proclaiming Christ had saved them in countries where such testimony carries a potential death penalty. And where is your scripture for this closed Gospel you're claiming?