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90 Minutes in Heaven
- Thread starter TCGreek
- Start date
blackbird said:
The relationship and the link between the spirit and the body is a mystery and not fully understood by anyone here, the least of all by myself. I do know, however, that I can free one's spirit from his body if I drain enough of his blood. I think that when the physical body is weakened, one can become more spiritually cognizant. (I think that's one purpose in fasting.)
Whether this man was really dead is irrelevant to me. Death isn't a prerequisite to seeing Heaven. Paul's "man" wasn't dead when his spirit ascended to heaven and saw spiritual things (2 Cor. 12:1-5). The interesting thing is that Paul was forbidden to utter the words that were heard. Pipedude wisely minimized this pastor's out-of-body experience and pointed us to the "more sure word of prophecy."
I say that to say this. The man could be telling us the truth, but his words have no authority.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Since the man says he was dead for 90 minutes and never once saw Jesus, but only friends and family, I submit to you he was only dreaming. It was not a visit to heaven, but only a dream.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
TC,
Delusion?
Delusion?
Let's look at the facts...
1. EMS (between 4 and 8) declared the man dead. They are professionals, and wouldn't declare someone dead if they had any doubts.
2. This declaration was made using an EKG machine that did not pick up any pulses.
3. Even if he did have a pulse, with the severity of his injuries, he would have bled out well before 90 minutes. The EMS claimed he was killed instantly. There was not much blood which is an indication the heart stopped almost instantaneously.
4. Other people who have had NDE's and claimed to see Heaven were never declared dead.
After looking over the facts, I don't believe it was delusional. The medical facts seem to point to this man's heart being stopped.
1. EMS (between 4 and 8) declared the man dead. They are professionals, and wouldn't declare someone dead if they had any doubts.
2. This declaration was made using an EKG machine that did not pick up any pulses.
3. Even if he did have a pulse, with the severity of his injuries, he would have bled out well before 90 minutes. The EMS claimed he was killed instantly. There was not much blood which is an indication the heart stopped almost instantaneously.
4. Other people who have had NDE's and claimed to see Heaven were never declared dead.
After looking over the facts, I don't believe it was delusional. The medical facts seem to point to this man's heart being stopped.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
So let's look at more facts.
The man claimed to have been dead for 90 minutes.
During this period, the man never saw Jesus but saw friends and family.
The man supposedly is dead for 90 minutes and no brain damage whatsoever.
The man writes and sells a book claiming such nonsense really happened.
Delusion.
BTW, A nurse cannot pronounce someone dead, nor can EMS personnel. Once CPR is started, it cannot be stopped unless a doctor declares the person dead.
The man claimed to have been dead for 90 minutes.
During this period, the man never saw Jesus but saw friends and family.
The man supposedly is dead for 90 minutes and no brain damage whatsoever.
The man writes and sells a book claiming such nonsense really happened.
Delusion.
BTW, A nurse cannot pronounce someone dead, nor can EMS personnel. Once CPR is started, it cannot be stopped unless a doctor declares the person dead.
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
The Bible is silent about Lazarus' brain, is it not?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
He probably was...
But it was Jesus who worked the miracle of raising Lazarus.
From what I read in Don Piper's book, his account does not line up with the Word of God at all
Paul spoke of departing and being with the Lord. Yet this man never saw the Lord in his dream... yes, that is all I believe that it was, a dream.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Yet Don admits in his book that he was not with the Lord. As a matter of fact, he was not even in heaven upon death! He was at the gate and was not inside it yet! Friends met him and led him through the gate and down streets of gold (The Bible speaks of only one street, btw). Jesus apparently did not want the man in heaven and was not even thoughtful to speak to the man face to face. He sends someone else that the man knew to relay the message to return to earth. This man's account is nothing more than fiction.
But it was Jesus who worked the miracle of raising Lazarus.
From what I read in Don Piper's book, his account does not line up with the Word of God at all
Paul spoke of departing and being with the Lord. Yet this man never saw the Lord in his dream... yes, that is all I believe that it was, a dream.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Yet Don admits in his book that he was not with the Lord. As a matter of fact, he was not even in heaven upon death! He was at the gate and was not inside it yet! Friends met him and led him through the gate and down streets of gold (The Bible speaks of only one street, btw). Jesus apparently did not want the man in heaven and was not even thoughtful to speak to the man face to face. He sends someone else that the man knew to relay the message to return to earth. This man's account is nothing more than fiction.
I checked around a bit but cannot find the article.... it has been discovered that the brain is NOT dead, in some people at least, for some time after the heart has stopped. Evidently there is still some kind of function going on.
However, with the lack of circulation, what SFIC considers 'delusions' may well be memory triggers which are misfiring. Ninety minutes is a long time, but when the body goes into shock, the organs slow way down and blood flow is reduced to extremities.
For what it is worth, when I was 21, I was kicked by a horse and my spleen ended up in about four hundred pieces (well, that's the figure the doctor used, but I'm sure he was exaggerating!) and my pancreas was cut in half. I was not taken into surgery for twelve hours. I should have been dead several times over from interal bleeding, but I wasn't. The body has some strange coping mechanisms built in by our Lord, I think.
However, with the lack of circulation, what SFIC considers 'delusions' may well be memory triggers which are misfiring. Ninety minutes is a long time, but when the body goes into shock, the organs slow way down and blood flow is reduced to extremities.
For what it is worth, when I was 21, I was kicked by a horse and my spleen ended up in about four hundred pieces (well, that's the figure the doctor used, but I'm sure he was exaggerating!) and my pancreas was cut in half. I was not taken into surgery for twelve hours. I should have been dead several times over from interal bleeding, but I wasn't. The body has some strange coping mechanisms built in by our Lord, I think.
Magnetic Poles
New Member
Maybe it was "The Other Place"!! :laugh::laugh:standingfirminChrist said:
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Magnetic Poles said:
Still only a dream.
The brain dies normally without oxygen in six minutes. Ninety minutes wih no oxygen, and the brain surviving is unheard of, let alone any delusions or memories being triggered.Helen said:
While the blood flow may slow down in shock, with the extent of Piper's injuries, had there been any pulse at all, he would have bled out.
This still doesn't explain the EKG not picking up any pulses in his body during the 90 minutes, either.
Joshua Rhodes
<img src=/jrhodes.jpg>
I can think of another book that's extensively about heaven that's also misunderstood... Revelation. Now, I'm not equating Piper's book with Scripture (because all Scripture is God-breathed and good for instruction, etc.) but cut the guy a little slack. This is no worse than LaHaye and Jenkins making millions off of a "guess" of the events of Revelation. And whether you ascribe to their interpretation of Revelation or not, planning seven books in a series and then changing it to twelve because you could stretch out the story and make more money is not for the purpose of spreading the Gospel.
Or maybe I'm judging their intentions like some are judging Piper's intentions?
Or maybe I'm judging their intentions like some are judging Piper's intentions?
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Dale McNamee
New Member
Dear Sopranette,
You wrote: " Correct me if I'm wrong, but an EMT is not allowed to pronounce anyone officially dead, no matter how obvious it may seem to them. I think there are three different doctors who can do this; the trauma center MD, the Coroner, and the autopsy MD. "
Regarding an EMT making the call...It depends on the laws of each state as to wether an EMT or PARAMEDIC can do so.
My wife has been an EMT for over 30 years and has had to do so in a few cases after all attempts to revive the victim are exhausted. The "deceased" is taken to a local hospital and oficially prounounced dead there,then onto the coroner.
She also works as a dispensary nurse at the Womens' prison for the State of MD. And she works under a different set of protocols than she has as an EMT: She can't declare death even though the body is cold and rigor mortis has set in, only the doctor can do so. She's even had to do CPR on such a corpse according to the protocols. She works the 12midnight - 8:30am shift and has to await the arrival of the on-call doctor.
Sometimes the "rules" can appear to be "silly"...
Regarding pulses not being picked up,etc. ... She had an inmate come to the dispensary complaining of extreme lethargy and being unable to styay awake. My wife started taking vital signs and could not get a pulse reading even after a few attempts. She also took the blood pressure and there was none discernable,again after a few attempts. Next,she listened to the inmate's heart and no sounds. Yet,the inmate was lucid !
My wife called the county ambulance,advised them of the situation. She also kept the inmate awake. The PARAMEDICS arrived and checked the inmate and got the same results. The inmate went to the hospital where the physical signs were determined to be caused by a medicine she had been taking.
Declaring death is not as capricious as it may appear...
I hope that this helps clarify things.
Sincerely,
Dale
You wrote: " Correct me if I'm wrong, but an EMT is not allowed to pronounce anyone officially dead, no matter how obvious it may seem to them. I think there are three different doctors who can do this; the trauma center MD, the Coroner, and the autopsy MD. "
Regarding an EMT making the call...It depends on the laws of each state as to wether an EMT or PARAMEDIC can do so.
My wife has been an EMT for over 30 years and has had to do so in a few cases after all attempts to revive the victim are exhausted. The "deceased" is taken to a local hospital and oficially prounounced dead there,then onto the coroner.
She also works as a dispensary nurse at the Womens' prison for the State of MD. And she works under a different set of protocols than she has as an EMT: She can't declare death even though the body is cold and rigor mortis has set in, only the doctor can do so. She's even had to do CPR on such a corpse according to the protocols. She works the 12midnight - 8:30am shift and has to await the arrival of the on-call doctor.
Sometimes the "rules" can appear to be "silly"...
Regarding pulses not being picked up,etc. ... She had an inmate come to the dispensary complaining of extreme lethargy and being unable to styay awake. My wife started taking vital signs and could not get a pulse reading even after a few attempts. She also took the blood pressure and there was none discernable,again after a few attempts. Next,she listened to the inmate's heart and no sounds. Yet,the inmate was lucid !
My wife called the county ambulance,advised them of the situation. She also kept the inmate awake. The PARAMEDICS arrived and checked the inmate and got the same results. The inmate went to the hospital where the physical signs were determined to be caused by a medicine she had been taking.
Declaring death is not as capricious as it may appear...
I hope that this helps clarify things.
Sincerely,
Dale
standingfirminChrist said:
==Good point. For someone to claim to have gone to heaven, even for five minutes, without seeing Jesus is a bit weird. :thumbs:
I would, however, urge caution on your earlier statement about Heb 9:27. I would point out that there are people who die and are raised back to life in the Bible. So it is not out of the question. Rare? Yes. Out of the question? No.