A 50-Year Failed Experiment?

[mandym]

And thus, the first time I think I've disagreed with you about anything.


Opening post talks about youths being separated from parents, and how one group is talking about it being wrong; verses from Nehemiah seem to support that family members (at least those that are able to hear with understanding) should be together. Not sure I'm understanding why you think the verses are "coincidental."


"Arbitrary" - a course of action or a decision that is not based on reason or judgment but on personal will or discretion without regard to rules or standards.

Thanks to the military, I've been a member of about a half dozen different churches. One church has "children's church" for 4th grade and under; another says 3rd grade and under. As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread, my current church sends the 6th graders and under out to one location, and teens to another.

I don't know what the average Southern Baptist, or Reformed Baptist, or Landmark Baptist, or Freewill Baptist, or GARBC, or other churches practice or determine as their "standard." Thus, my use of the term "arbitrary."

At my church we send elementary age to children's church and 6th & stay in the sanctuary during the morning service. Sunday and Wed nights they go to their classes. There are plenty of ways to do things as a family at church. If the children are in the sanctuary then they are getting little to nothing from the word. That is just not helpful. We should be teaching and encouraging family worship at home as well.

Every time we turn around these days there is someone else who thinks they "now" have the inside scoop on how church should be done and everyone else to this point has been wrong and unbiblical. Such attitudes always carry no credibility with me. Personally I am suspicious of them that they have another agenda they are not willing to reveal up front. Largely because of what i have already said and the arguments are spurious at best.

 

[David Lamb]

How does everyone sitting quietly listening to one man pontificate encourage a family atmosphere? Families interact, talk together & get to know each other. How is this accomplished in a lecturing environment? It isn't. Perhaps more than just the youth programs needs to be reformed in our churches.

I am sure there are some churches where the preaching of God's Word is replaced by "pontificating", but does that mean that preaching is inherently wrong?

I am equally sure that there are some churches where as soon as the last hymn is over, everyone goes home, and people don't say anything to each other, but it is wrong to suggest that this is an automatic and unfailing result of having one man preach.

Likewise, I am certain that the preaching of some men is nothing more than lecturing, but that doesn't mean that we must replace preaching with a time for "Families (to) interact, talk together & get to know each other." When in Acts 20 we read of young Eutychus being overcome by sleep, and falling through a third floor window, it was during Paul's preaching, not a "getting to know each other" session.

Surely the primary reason for Christians meeting together as church on the Lord's Day is to worship God, not to get to know one another. (But let me stress, I am not for a moment suggesting that church members shouldn't get to know each other!)

 

[Bob Alkire]

Surely the primary reason for Christians meeting together as church on the Lord's Day is to worship God, not to get to know one another. (But let me stress, I am not for a moment suggesting that church members shouldn't get to know each other!)

Amen brother!!!

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Surely the primary reason for Christians meeting together as church on the Lord's Day is to worship God, not to get to know one another. (But let me stress, I am not for a moment suggesting that church members shouldn't get to know each other!)

Where does Scripture clearly say that "worship" is the primary reason for assembling? Worship is a vague term that could encompass almost anything we wanted to do. Let's see what Scripture says about it:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ": (Eph 4:11-12)

Notice that the first reason for assembling is the equipping of the saints. Sermons may sound Scriptural, but they fall far short of equipping the saints to spread the gospel & contend for the faith. Brethren, we should not come to worship, but to equip & encourage.

 

[mandym]

Where does Scripture clearly say that "worship" is the primary reason for assembling? Worship is a vague term that could encompass almost anything we wanted to do.

uh, wow!///

 

[Mexdeaf]

Where does Scripture clearly say that "worship" is the primary reason for assembling? Worship is a vague term that could encompass almost anything we wanted to do. Let's see what Scripture says about it:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ": (Eph 4:11-12)

Notice that the first reason for assembling is the equipping of the saints. Sermons may sound Scriptural, but they fall far short of equipping the saints to spread the gospel & contend for the faith. Brethren, we should not come to worship, but to equip & encourage.

If a couple hours on Sunday and one on Wednesday is all there is to 'equipping', then I must be missing something.

Apples and oranges, friend.

 

[David Lamb]

Where does Scripture clearly say that "worship" is the primary reason for assembling? Worship is a vague term that could encompass almost anything we wanted to do. Let's see what Scripture says about it:

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ": (Eph 4:11-12)

Notice that the first reason for assembling is the equipping of the saints. Sermons may sound Scriptural, but they fall far short of equipping the saints to spread the gospel & contend for the faith. Brethren, we should not come to worship, but to equip & encourage.

Sorry, Michael, but I must disagree with your assessment of worship. OK, so some people may use the word "worship" unbiblically, in such a way that it is (to borrow your words) "a vague term that could encompass almost anything we wanted to do." (Perhaps you thought I was using the word in that way, but I wasn't.) In the bible, we are told that worship must be spiritual and in truth, and that it must be to the true God. We cannot worship God by doing almost anything we want.

As for Ephesians 4.11-12, the context of those words is not a blueprint for a church service, but the whole life of a church, and of the individual Christians that make up that church fitting together as members of a body.

 

[TCGreek]

Surely the primary reason for Christians meeting together as church on the Lord's Day is to worship God, not to get to know one another. (But let me stress, I am not for a moment suggesting that church members shouldn't get to know each other!)

Perhaps we need to flesh out some more why Christians meet together. Yes, to worship God primarily. But to say not to get to know one another is reckless.

What do we make of all the one another passages of Paul's letters? What about Heb 10:24-25?

 

[RAdam]

It's entertaining watching people defend segregating people based on gender and age at church. There isn't one ounce of scripture brought forward to defend such a practice. I wonder why.

No, what is being brought forward is positive things that have resulted from such a practice, personal opinion, and human reasoning. God can take anything and use it for His purposes, so I wouldn't rely solely on that to determine the correctness of an approach. Personal opinion and human reasoning shouldn't determine key church practice. So, where is scripture in the discussion? Absent.

Sunday School was introduced into the Baptist church. Where was the scriptural justification for such an introduction? There was none. What was there? Personal opinion and human reasoning. It was just as bad back then as it is today.

That said, youth ministry, SS, etc are not the cause of the problem of young people leaving Christianity. They should be eliminated, but that doesn't mean they are the cause. The cause is families abdicating their obligation to disciple their children. They have passed this off to the youth ministry, SS, etc. That disobedience is the cause of the problem. The retention rates would dramatically improve were people to follow the Lord's commands. Of course, that is true of all things.

 

[Salty]

Sunday School was introduced into the Baptist church. Where was the scriptural justification for such an introduction? There was none. What was there? Personal opinion and human reasoning. It was just as bad back then as it is today. [/QUOTE}]

On the other hand where does Scripture prohibit graded Sunday School

Here is some info on the begining of Sunday School

and by the way, for those who think we should not have segrated SS, since it was not required in Scripture, I assume you do not use Hymn books, pianos, power point, ect....

 

[Thousand Hills]

Have been following this thread and enjoyed the discussion. I have not watched the movie in the OP, but plan to do so when I get time.

That said, youth ministry, SS, etc are not the cause of the problem of young people leaving Christianity. They should be eliminated, but that doesn't mean they are the cause. The cause is families abdicating their obligation to disciple their children. They have passed this off to the youth ministry, SS, etc. That disobedience is the cause of the problem. The retention rates would dramatically improve were people to follow the Lord's commands. Of course, that is true of all things.

Nail on head, spent some time working with youth a few years ago, and I tried my best to bring every lesson back to Jesus, teach biblical values, etc. It was very frustrating to try to teach these kids principles, while their parents that were churgoers allowed MTV and for them to go to any movies they wanted too, etc.

On a similar note, I was recently told by a youth minister "Studies show kids are more interested in how you relate to them rather than how much you know (biblical knowledge/theology, practical experience, etc.). " This mentality is part of the problem, while obviously someone in youth ministry should be called to do so, it's most important that the kids are discipled. This same mentality is why you have parents acting like teenagers and trying to be their "friends". When I was a youth, I thought my folks were fuddy duddies, but they disciplined me when I needed it and gave me guidance in love. I appreciate and respect them for that now as an adult. When I was a youth, our youth minister wasn't the coolest guy in the world, but he sincerely cared about us and took us through scripture doing his best. We gave him a hard time then, but I look back in appreciation for his devotion to the Lord.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

If a couple hours on Sunday and one on Wednesday is all there is to 'equipping', then I must be missing something.

Apples and oranges, friend.

The gifts were given to the church. When are we to carry out His commands & gifts if it is not when we assemble? How many churches worship corporately every week without the people ever being taught how to study (feed themselves) God's Word? Worship is an individual act which we are to do every day. We don't need more singing & preaching; we need more equipping & learning about God.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

The cause is families abdicating their obligation to disciple their children. They have passed this off to the youth ministry, SS, etc. That disobedience is the cause of the problem. The retention rates would dramatically improve were people to follow the Lord's commands. Of course, that is true of all things.

And pastors have abdicated their responsibility to feed the congregation & to teach them to feed themselves from God's Word. They pass it off to the "Sunday School" classes where the teachers are rarely gifted & equipped to teach beyond reading from a quarterly. :BangHead:

 

[RAdam]

And pastors have abdicated their responsibility to feed the congregation & to teach them to feed themselves from God's Word. They pass it off to the "Sunday School" classes where the teachers are rarely gifted & equipped to teach beyond reading from a quarterly. :BangHead:

Yes, that is also true. There is a need for God's people to do what He commanded us. That goes for all of us.

 

[RAdam]

Sunday School was introduced into the Baptist church. Where was the scriptural justification for such an introduction? There was none. What was there? Personal opinion and human reasoning. It was just as bad back then as it is today. [/QUOTE}]

On the other hand where does Scripture prohibit graded Sunday School

Here is some info on the begining of Sunday School

and by the way, for those who think we should not have segrated SS, since it was not required in Scripture, I assume you do not use Hymn books, pianos, power point, ect....

I don't have a problem with Sunday School because of its absence in the bible. I have a problem with Sunday School because it is against the system God put in place in the bible and it was added to the church with no scriptural justification for such an addition.

When you add something to the church, you must consider if it is justified by God's word. That doesn't mean just looking for it in the bible. That means looking to see if it is commanded, prohibited, or if there is another system already commanded which with the new thing is incompatable.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I don't have a problem with Sunday School because of its absence in the bible. I have a problem with Sunday School because it is against the system God put in place in the bible and it was added to the church with no scriptural justification for such an addition.

When you add something to the church, you must consider if it is justified by God's word. That doesn't mean just looking for it in the bible. That means looking to see if it is commanded, prohibited, or if there is another system already commanded which with the new thing is incompatable.

Where does Scripture outline church as it is conducted today? Where does God's Word record a single sermon being preached in a NT church meeting? There are none. The way we do church is as Scriptural as Sunday School.

 

[Mexdeaf]

The gifts were given to the church. When are we to carry out His commands & gifts if it is not when we assemble? How many churches worship corporately every week without the people ever being taught how to study (feed themselves) God's Word? Worship is an individual act which we are to do every day. We don't need more singing & preaching; we need more equipping & learning about God.

I think you miss my meaning, but perhaps not. My point is that the gifts and equipping are not limited to corporate worship times. God does not limit their usage to between the hours of 9:45 a.m. and noon on Sunday morning and from 6 to 7ish p.m. on Sunday and Wednesday evenings.

 

[HAMel]

A lot of great responses and positions.

Our world today has too much glitter that catches the eye of almost everyone. There was a time when the "Church House" was the center of the community. Believers would gather for social events at the Church and the non-believers would gather at the Saloon.

I don't really have any problem with a Sunday School but I really don't think much gets accomplished.

If I were the Pastor of a Church I would strive for an event at least once a week if for no other reason than just to eat a meal. To come together and fellowship. The kids could shoot basket ball in the parking lot while the adults gather and yap at each other. A couple three songs or so. A five minute "look at the Book" by the Pastor. Just to relax and have some fun with our own kind. An opportunity to invite the neighbor next door to come for a meal. Yes, that neighbor you don't really know that moved in a few months ago. A time to bring attention to a child that has done well in school. To find out exactly how Aunt Sadie is getting along with her arthritis.

Most of all, a church needs to strive for a warm and fuzzy atmosphere where people can congregate without fear of being Classed, Sized, Rated, and Ranked. The only problem with this is that people do get involved and they are most always the existing membership.

I'll be glad once it's all over.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I think you miss my meaning, but perhaps not. My point is that the gifts and equipping are not limited to corporate worship times. God does not limit their usage to between the hours of 9:45 a.m. and noon on Sunday morning and from 6 to 7ish p.m. on Sunday and Wednesday evenings.

Where else could they possible be used? How do we equip or encourage each other when we are not together? Those are the only times the church congregates. Why would the gifts not be used when we assemble? It doesn't make sense; unless we are gathering for some reason other than to fulfill the gifts of Christ within the Body. Sermons do not fulfill any of the gifts; not even the gift of evangelism(preaching). The one gift that must be used outside of the assembly for it to be fulfilled properly has become the focus of the assembly. We place all that we do under the banner of "worship" & we think this will cause God to bless it. He has given specific gifts to be used within the assembled Body. Perhaps if the Body were being conducted in a Biblical fashion, we wouldn't be eternally seeking after "revival" that never comes. As I've said on other threads, it is reformation of the Body not revival(ever more preaching) that the church needs.

 

[mandym]

I see it more and more. When we do not like something about the church we work to pick and distort everything we can about it in order to discredit it. There in no doubt that is so many churches the Spirit of God is quenched. The mistake made in addressing this issue is to blame methods and practices in the church.

We live in a day and age when the God ordained preaching of the His Word is being shunned more and more. The theological left want nothing to do with it and only wish to water down the reason why we congregate to begin with. More and more we see this drive to create and atmosphere of "I'm ok, your ok" within our churches. They do not want soul stirring, heart convicting, Holy Spirit preaching going on in our churches.

The Word of God should be preached from the pulpits of American and all around the world with love, and conviction, with the power of the Holy Spirit, when it is convenient to the listeners and when it is not. The church should face revival a new every time the word is preached.

But the problem is not that the Word of God is preached, it is that so often it is not preached. And when it is it is not received. Men's hearts have not grown cold because the God called man stands up on Sunday morning and delivers the necessary and God ordained message in the Power of the Spirit but because there are those in our churches who are looking to get their ears tickled. They do not want to hear sound doctrine from God's man who has been to the mountain top this week.They want to be left alone in all their comfort to live as they choose.

The problem is not methods or preaching from the pulpits. It is the cold, hard hearts of men who are not willing to walk int he Spirit.