A 50-Year Failed Experiment?

[Don]

I see it more and more. When we do not like something about the church we work to pick and distort everything we can about it in order to discredit it. There in no doubt that is so many churches the Spirit of God is quenched. The mistake made in addressing this issue is to blame methods and practices in the church.

We live in a day and age when the God ordained preaching of the His Word is being shunned more and more. The theological left want nothing to do with it and only wish to water down the reason why we congregate to begin with. More and more we see this drive to create and atmosphere of "I'm ok, your ok" within our churches. They do not want soul stirring, heart convicting, Holy Spirit preaching going on in our churches.

The Word of God should be preached from the pulpits of American and all around the world with love, and conviction, with the power of the Holy Spirit, when it is convenient to the listeners and when it is not. The church should face revival a new every time the word is preached.

But the problem is not that the Word of God is preached, it is that so often it is not preached. And when it is it is not received. Men's hearts have not grown cold because the God called man stands up on Sunday morning and delivers the necessary and God ordained message in the Power of the Spirit but because there are those in our churches who are looking to get their ears tickled. They do not want to hear sound doctrine from God's man who has been to the mountain top this week.They want to be left alone in all their comfort to live as they choose.

The problem is not methods or preaching from the pulpits. It is the cold, hard hearts of men who are not willing to walk int he Spirit.

The *only* flaw with what you've posted here, is when it's the pastor that's emphasizing the methods and practices in the church.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

I see it more and more. When we do not like something about the church we work to pick and distort everything we can about it in order to discredit it. There in no doubt that is so many churches the Spirit of God is quenched. The mistake made in addressing this issue is to blame methods and practices in the church.

We live in a day and age when the God ordained preaching of the His Word is being shunned more and more. The theological left want nothing to do with it and only wish to water down the reason why we congregate to begin with. More and more we see this drive to create and atmosphere of "I'm ok, your ok" within our churches. They do not want soul stirring, heart convicting, Holy Spirit preaching going on in our churches.

The Word of God should be preached from the pulpits of American and all around the world with love, and conviction, with the power of the Holy Spirit, when it is convenient to the listeners and when it is not. The church should face revival a new every time the word is preached.

But the problem is not that the Word of God is preached, it is that so often it is not preached. And when it is it is not received. Men's hearts have not grown cold because the God called man stands up on Sunday morning and delivers the necessary and God ordained message in the Power of the Spirit but because there are those in our churches who are looking to get their ears tickled. They do not want to hear sound doctrine from God's man who has been to the mountain top this week.They want to be left alone in all their comfort to live as they choose.

The problem is not methods or preaching from the pulpits. It is the cold, hard hearts of men who are not willing to walk int he Spirit.

Where are your Scriptural references for preaching within the congregation? I am conformed to the image of Christ by the renewing of my mind, not by the public speaking of another man. I and my family learn more in 20 minutes of Bible study than in a month of sermons. My 10yr old daughter comments every time the pastor takes a passage out of context to fit his sermon. This is the difference between a child raised on the meat of the Word & a child raised on the milk of sermons.
No one can study the Word in an effort to discover truth apart from denominational & personal influences & think "I'm ok, your ok". That type of self-deluded thinking comes from sitting under shallow preaching, not from searching God's Word to know who God is.
Instead of attacking my position as liberal, try proving your own with Biblical references. Show me where Scripture commands us to worship by sitting quietly & listening to sermons EVERY time we gather. We are commanded to make disciples. How is this done in a lecturing atmosphere? I disagree with your premise that preaching to the church is of the Holy Spirit. It is certainly "soul stirring" in that it is emotionally manipulative. A gifted preacher can make the audience feel "convicted" about most anything. It is called false guilt. The Holy Spirit does not work through prophets or priests; why would he work through priestly pastors to speak to those who He indwells. God's people have allowed themselves to be brought into spiritual bondage to those who spoon out the "truth" three times per week instead of teaching them how to feed themselves from God's Word.
How can an unScriptural practice be a "necessary and God ordained message in the Power of the Spirit"? How do you quantify this statement? How do you determine this; because the preacher says so? Every preacher in every church makes this claim. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. My Father speaks to me through the written Word & His Spirit which dwells in me personally. Your position is an insult to the Biblical doctrines of the Priesthood of every believer, the indwelling of every believer, & the sufficiency of Scripture in the life of every believer. Why do we need a baptistic priest to tell us God's will? We don't.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Biblical reasons for assembling:

Rejoicing, Celebration Col 3:16
Edification, Encouragement:Heb 10:24-25, Eph 4:11-16, Eph 5:19-20, 1 Thess 5:11
Equipping the Saints: Eph 4:11-16
Ministerial Work: Eph 4:11-16
Scriptural Instruction: Acts 2:42, Acts 5:2, Acts 20:17, Heb 5:11-6:2, 1 Tim 2:2, 1 Tim 3:2
Accountability: James 5:16
Fellowship Meals: 1 Cor 11:33, Acts 2:42 & 46
Prayer: Acts 2:42, Phil 4:6
Provide for widows & orphans: James 1:27
Communion: 1 Corinthians 11:23-26


Examples of preaching in Scripture. Note that the gift of evangelism(preaching) is always performed in public areas, not in a NT church. And no, the temple was not a NT church, it was the OT representation of the person & presence of God that has no place under the New Covenant.

1. city streets (Acts 2:12-40)
2. the temple grounds (Acts 3:1-26)
3. a desert road (Acts 8:26-40)
4. the synagogues of unbelieving Jews (Acts 9:20-22; 13:5; 13:14-41, 44-49; 14:1-3; 17:1-4; 7:10-12; 18:19; and 19:8)
5. the home of an unbeliever (Acts 10:34-43)
6. a riverside (Acts 16:13-15)
7. prisons (Acts 16:30-31; 26:1-29; 28:23-31)
8. the market place (Acts 17:17)
9. a hill dedicated to a pagan god (Acts 17:19)
10. a castle (Acts 21:34-22:21)
11. the governor's residence (Acts 23:35; 24:24-25)

 

[RAdam]

Where does Scripture outline church as it is conducted today? Where does God's Word record a single sermon being preached in a NT church meeting? There are none. The way we do church is as Scriptural as Sunday School.

Where does Scripture outline church practice? All over the NT. I'm amazed that people cannot see it. People think Christ left the church in the world with no guidance for how to conduct their worship, leaving this totally up to them to decide based on human reasoning, personal opinions, etc. Amazing.

Scripture outlines singing, prayer, and preaching.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Where does Scripture outline church practice? All over the NT. I'm amazed that people cannot see it. People think Christ left the church in the world with no guidance for how to conduct their worship, leaving this totally up to them to decide based on human reasoning, personal opinions, etc. Amazing.

Scripture outlines singing, prayer, and preaching.

If it is all over the NT, then post it. Where are we commanded to conduct church as it is conducted in our modern churches? I have given dozens of references, where are yours?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Where else could they possible be used? How do we equip or encourage each other when we are not together? Those are the only times the church congregates. Why would the gifts not be used when we assemble? It doesn't make sense; unless we are gathering for some reason other than to fulfill the gifts of Christ within the Body. Sermons do not fulfill any of the gifts; not even the gift of evangelism(preaching). The one gift that must be used outside of the assembly for it to be fulfilled properly has become the focus of the assembly. We place all that we do under the banner of "worship" & we think this will cause God to bless it. He has given specific gifts to be used within the assembled Body. Perhaps if the Body were being conducted in a Biblical fashion, we wouldn't be eternally seeking after "revival" that never comes. As I've said on other threads, it is reformation of the Body not revival(ever more preaching) that the church needs.

We're not building a church for Michael's sake nor for Jim's sake, but for Christ's sake. He is the Head of the body and we'll will answer to Him. Be blessed.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

We're not building a church for Michael's sake nor for Jim's sake, but for Christ's sake. He is the Head of the body and we'll will answer to Him. Be blessed.

Then answer to Him. The Word of God is our guide in this world. Where does His guide instruct us to practice church in the manner in which it is done today? I am pointing you to the Word of God; not to myself. Therefore, your response is an attempt at avoiding the truth of Scripture.

 

[Jerome]

Preaching is "always performed in public areas, not in a NT church"?

Oops:

Acts 20:7-8

And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together.

 

[TomVols]

A lot of churches are jettisoning age-graded worship. I think it depends on the age. If children have their own worship service up to age 12, that's a bit much. However, many 4 year olds can't and won't sit through a 2 hour worship service. (Goodness, many 64 year olds can't or won't) :laugh:

Ministry paradigms change. Youth ministry was the buzz of the 60-80s. In the 90s, it was Senior Adult ministry. Now, you can find a pink zebra with Waldo riding on its back before you can a Senior Adult minister, and that will be even more true in future years given the Baby Boomers' penchant for eschewing traditionally senior-citizen activities.

 

[mandym]

Where are your Scriptural references for preaching within the congregation? I am conformed to the image of Christ by the renewing of my mind, not by the public speaking of another man. I and my family learn more in 20 minutes of Bible study than in a month of sermons. My 10yr old daughter comments every time the pastor takes a passage out of context to fit his sermon. This is the difference between a child raised on the meat of the Word & a child raised on the milk of sermons.
No one can study the Word in an effort to discover truth apart from denominational & personal influences & think "I'm ok, your ok". That type of self-deluded thinking comes from sitting under shallow preaching, not from searching God's Word to know who God is.
Instead of attacking my position as liberal, try proving your own with Biblical references. Show me where Scripture commands us to worship by sitting quietly & listening to sermons EVERY time we gather. We are commanded to make disciples. How is this done in a lecturing atmosphere? I disagree with your premise that preaching to the church is of the Holy Spirit. It is certainly "soul stirring" in that it is emotionally manipulative. A gifted preacher can make the audience feel "convicted" about most anything. It is called false guilt. The Holy Spirit does not work through prophets or priests; why would he work through priestly pastors to speak to those who He indwells. God's people have allowed themselves to be brought into spiritual bondage to those who spoon out the "truth" three times per week instead of teaching them how to feed themselves from God's Word.
How can an unScriptural practice be a "necessary and God ordained message in the Power of the Spirit"? How do you quantify this statement? How do you determine this; because the preacher says so? Every preacher in every church makes this claim. They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. My Father speaks to me through the written Word & His Spirit which dwells in me personally. Your position is an insult to the Biblical doctrines of the Priesthood of every believer, the indwelling of every believer, & the sufficiency of Scripture in the life of every believer. Why do we need a baptistic priest to tell us God's will? We don't.

There may be some shallow preaching but not all preaching is shallow. The doctrine of the priesthood of the believer gets abused to cover what ever the theological left wants it to. And that is an insult to the Word of God.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

There may be some shallow preaching but not all preaching is shallow. The doctrine of the priesthood of the believer gets abused to cover what ever the theological left wants it to. And that is an insult to the Word of God.

You keep insinuating that I am coming from the theological left as a substitute for providing supportive Scripture. I'm not sure how you came to that unsupported conclusion. Let's trying keep it Scriptural, shall we?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Then answer to Him. The Word of God is our guide in this world. Where does His guide instruct us to practice church in the manner in which it is done today? I am pointing you to the Word of God; not to myself. Therefore, your response is an attempt at avoiding the truth of Scripture.

You have no idea how we practice the Scriptures here, so how do you know that I am "avoiding the truth of Scripture"? Perhaps I am just avoiding your particular interpretation thereof.

 

[mandym]

You keep insinuating that I am coming from the theological left as a substitute for providing supportive Scripture. I'm not sure how you came to that unsupported conclusion. Let's trying keep it Scriptural, shall we?

This view of yours about preaching, and the priesthood of the believer is theologically left. It is extreme, unorthodox, and without foundation. Scripture has been provided that has debunked, without question, your extreme view. You have provided scripture of different types of meetings but you have, to this point, provided no scripture to support your false, unfounded, and ungodly criticism of pastors and preaching in corporate worship.

I will add that Paul wrote to Timothy that he should preach the word. It was in the context of the church setting. And he warned of doctrines such as yours:

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

This view of yours about preaching, and the priesthood of the believer is theologically left. It is extreme, unorthodox, and without foundation. Scripture has been provided that has debunked, without question, your extreme view. You have provided scripture of different types of meetings but you have, to this point, provided no scripture to support your false, unfounded, and ungodly criticism of pastors and preaching in corporate worship.

I will add that Paul wrote to Timothy that he should preach the word. It was in the context of the church setting. And he warned of doctrines such as yours:

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Preaching & teaching are two separate gifts with very distinct purposes. Sound teaching is intended for the congregation. Preaching/evangelism is for the lost. This truth is evident throughout Scripture. Sermons feed a believer a little milk for a day, teaching that same believer to study & feed himself from God's Word will feed him for a lifetime. I still don't see where you get the idea that we need a human mediator between God & men. That is an affront to the essence of the New Covenant which has brought ALL believers into a personal, priestly relationship with the Father.

 

[J.D.]

"Divided" the movie can be watched for free here:

http://dividedthemovie.com/#watchlink

 

[mandym]

Preaching & teaching are two separate gifts with very distinct purposes. Sound teaching is intended for the congregation. Preaching/evangelism is for the lost. This truth is evident throughout Scripture. Sermons feed a believer a little milk for a day, teaching that same believer to study & feed himself from God's Word will feed him for a lifetime. I still don't see where you get the idea that we need a human mediator between God & men. That is an affront to the essence of the New Covenant which has brought ALL believers into a personal, priestly relationship with the Father.

You don't see a great deal of things. But that is because your unorthodox ideology has blinded you. But apparently you do not know what a mediator is since you have misused here. What is obvious is that you have a personal preference and you do not want to be confused with the facts.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

You don't see a great deal of things. But that is because your unorthodox ideology has blinded you. But apparently you do not know what a mediator is since you have misused here. What is obvious is that you have a personal preference and you do not want to be confused with the facts.

If you disagree with my last post, then you must not see the purpose for the New Covenant. Do you think we still need priests to mediate between us & God. Does God not speak to you through His Word, or do you "go to church" to have your mediator tell you what God will not reveal to you directly? The most Biblically shallow believers I have found have been those who rely on their three times per week spiritual feeding instead of taking hold of the reality that they have direct access to the knowledge of the Father within themselves.(Holy Spirit & written Word)

 

[Batt4Christ]

From what I have read on this study (and some other materials that I have read), the argument isn't that "youth ministry" is, in-and-of itself, the problem. It is the monster that it has become - creating a sub-congregation that never assimilates with the larger church body - and thus never receive the discipleship.

"One Body" - yet in practice we have established multiple separate groups with differing methods of worship/practice/and ideas on "church".

 

[Don]

From what I have read on this study (and some other materials that I have read), the argument isn't that "youth ministry" is, in-and-of itself, the problem. It is the monster that it has become - creating a sub-congregation that never assimilates with the larger church body - and thus never receive the discipleship.

"One Body" - yet in practice we have established multiple separate groups with differing methods of worship/practice/and ideas on "church".

Exactly. And I think that's the ultimate point of what Michael is trying to say.

 

[Mexdeaf]

From what I have read on this study (and some other materials that I have read), the argument isn't that "youth ministry" is, in-and-of itself, the problem. It is the monster that it has become - creating a sub-congregation that never assimilates with the larger church body - and thus never receive the discipleship.

"One Body" - yet in practice we have established multiple separate groups with differing methods of worship/practice/and ideas on "church".

Perhaps it is a problem in some churches/places. If so, then it is a failure of local leadership, not a generic failure.