A Baptist History Question

Answering both brothers with the same stone. In England there are a variety of Baptists with different practices, and there are a few that belong to small groups. The majority belong to the British Baptist Union. I was ordained under the Union, which had many "liberals". You are aware that even Spurgeon's great Tabernacle entertained a liberal preacher for a season. Liberalism was quite different in the UK. One would not readily admit he did not believe in certain things, because this would drive people off religion and bring scorn upon the minister. We mostly wore clergy collars and the rule was, the wider your collar, the more evangelical you were.

Many Baptist churches are called chapels. I believe there is a group of "Primitive Baptists", but I never attended a service. Remember, the bulk of my time in England Wales was spent in the Anglican Church and I was very close to entering ministry as an Anglican. You can blame the PB's that I didn't. I came to Canada in 1948, so my Brit time goes back a bit.

Glen, I can't recall mentioning Primitive Baptists in Canada. Jeff, you were probably up around Luton or Herpenden. There is a US Air Force base up there.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Bro. Glen wrote:

Bro. Glen.

Not stealing my thunder, I don't have any to steal. My got up and go, got up and went.

As for the question, I will give it a stab, with the caveat that it is open to correction.

In Canada, there was a group known as the Covenanted Baptist Church, which was recognized as an exact equivalent of Primitive Baptists there. Years ago I met Elder George Rushton, who was their leader, when he was on a preaching appointment in eastern North Carolina. We discussed these folks earlier in this thread.

In the United Kingdom there are the Strict Baptists, who would mirror our theology but have some differences in practice. These folks are divided into two or three camps, and I don't fully understand their differences. S, F, Paul, wrote a history of the Strict Baptists in the 1950s, and it is a useful set of books to understanding them. I haven't read them for a number of years, but have them somewhere. The group recognized in America as most orthodox are known as the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists. This is the group of which J. C. Philpot, William Gadsby amd John Warburton were members (among others).

The Gospel Standar folks have three or four churches in the United States. They also have churches in India and Kenya, as I understand it (any maybe otherplaces as well -- I have heard rumors of them in Jamaica, the Bahamas, and Bermuda, but I just don't really know.

In Germany, Sylvester Hassell reported in 1885 that there were a group known as "Grace Baptists" and he stated that they were our eqivalent there, but I have no current knowledge of them.

In America Primitive Baptists are fractured, as you are well aware, and below is my summary of what is what.

I. Absoloute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists, aka, Old School Baptists in some quarters. This group is divided badly among itself. There seems to be no underlying theological difference among any of them, but rather are fractured due to personality conflicts. Each major group has its own publication, which defines who is in and who is out. These publications are:

a. The Signs of the Times, established by Elder Gilbert Bebee in the 1840s, and currently published by the brethren of the Pigg River Association of Southside Virginia. This group was at one time the largest faction of this subgroup of Primitive Baptists, but have recently fractured among themselves.
b. Zion's Landmark, established by P. D. Gold in the 19th century. This group is fairly large, and principally centered in eastern North Carolina.
c. The Remnant. This is the most recent of these publications, begun by Elder James Poole of Salisbury Maryland. This group began when a conflict over the editorial policy for the Signs of the Times broke out. This group would no doubt reject my characterization, but they are the liberals of the Absolute Predestinarian Primitive (or Old School) Primitive Baptists.
d. There are other Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists who would have nothing to do with either of the forgoing groups.

II. Old Line Primitive Baptists. As you are well aware, the Old Line Primitive Baptists are currently in the process of a major schism, and it is unclear, at least to me, how it will all fall out. Like so many divisions, personalities are involved, as well as points of practice. Unfortunately (or forunately depending on your point of view), some of the more progressive brethern in this camp are embracing a formal calvinistic views. I know a debate on this erupted in the last couple of days on David Montgomery's web site's forum. I could supply the names, places, etc. to settle the matter, but haven't and won't. It seems to me that it would only cause additional confusion. At any rate, you are aware of the issues.

The Old Line folks who are perhaps more evangelical than others have established congregations in the Philippines, Kenya, India and Poland. I understand there is a movement afoot to go to Costa Rica. I am out here in the hill of Virginia, and I dont have first hand knowledge of these churches.

III. Progressive Primitive Baptists. Largely center in Georgia, but with churches in other places as well. Theologically there are few, if any differences with Old Line Primitive Baptists, but the division is over modern means. Some members of the Absolute Predestinarian and Old Line Primitive Baptists would reject the notion that they should even be on this list. I don't personally share that view. The Progressive Primitive Baptists, have, as I understand it, established congregations in parts of the former Soviet Union, notably in Ukraine.

IV. Universalists Primitive Baptists. Centered in the mountains of Southwestern Virginia, West Virginia, East Tennessee and Kentucky. These folks believe that every human who ever lived will eventually end up in heaven and immortal glory. We discussed these folks sometime back. Howard Dorgan wrote a book about these folks called, "Children of a Happy God." Dorgan is an academic type, but he treated them with sympathy. But he missed several of them. There is a church in Indiana which has switched from Old Line to this point of view in the last few years. In Alabama several Old Line Churches have divided in the last few years as well on this point, and as a result there are some Universalists Primitive Baptists there.

There is another scattering of Primitive Baptists who lie between Universalists Primitive Baptists and Old Line Primitive Baptists -- specifically those who hold to an idea of annihilation of the wicked at the judgment. Many who hold this view, keep it to themselves, and officially remain in the Old Line camp. I know some of them, a relative of mine, Elder Charles Weaver, was one of the first advocates of this theory.

V. Nonresurrectionist Primitive Baptists. There are scattered churches here and there who hold to this notion.

VI. In South Alabama, there is a group of Primitive Baptists, of whom I have little knowledge, but said to be exceedingly conservative, and not affiliated with any of the groups listed above. There has been some contact between our Appalachian folks and this group in the last year or so, but I wasn't privy to the conversations, and never inquired about them.

VII. In Upper East Tennessee and Southwest Virginia there is a group known as the Eastern District Primitive Baptist Association, a fairly large group of people, who claim the Primitive Baptist name, but would have theologically more in common with Old Regulars than other Primitive Baptists. Old Regulars are for the most part modified calvinists in theology, but Primitive Baptist in practice.

VIII. There is at least one "Old Regular" Baptist Association here in southwest Virginia that is considering switching to become fully Primitive Baptist. I have no idea how all that will work out.

IX. African American Primitive Baptists seem to have never divided as badly as their European-American counterparts. I spoke at length with Elder Willie Vaughn of the Cub Run Primitive Baptist Association and Dr. Samuels, President of the National Primitive Baptist Convention (Progressive) about this. The only major division they have had is over progressive ideals. Elder Vaughn would hold to an old line approach, The African-American brethern in this part of the world never divided over the issue of Absolute/Non-Absolute Predestination of all things. It is an anomoly of polity I suppose, but some non-Absolute white Primitive Baptists will send delegates to the African American associational meetings, where there are delegates from other African-American associations who will received correspondents from white Absolute predesinarian associations. (Did that make any sense at all? You need a flow chart to understand it).

While most European American Primitive Baptists would reject the idea that the Progressive African-American Primitive Baptists are indeed Primitive Baptists, from my conversations with Dr. Samuels, I would disagree. His theology was quite orthodox.

I suspect that is far more than most readers here ever wanted to know about we Primitive Baptists.

Jeff.

 

Quick, moderators, better close this topic, we made it over 100 posts without an unkind word being spoken, er, typed. BTW, this will be my 600th post. An ill-spent mid-life.

 

We must be Exclusive Brethren.......LOL

Congrats Jeff....you are most appreciated here and hope for many more posts.

Glen, Jeff mentioned the group we had been talking about,,The Covenanters around the Guelph area in Ontario,,,,,about 250 miles from me.

Cheers,

Jim

 

They made peace! At least here in Texas, all the old line Primitive Baptists would be considered "Peace Baptists" (except for one church). There is one association (Original Rich Mountain) that has one church each in Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas. I am not sure that they still refer to themselves as Trumpet Baptists, but they call the others "Peace Baptists."

I am curious as to what sense you mean liberal. Despite all the divisions that exist among Absoluters here in Texas, I haven't found any substantial difference in hardly any of them, except one group that openly holds God is the author of sin. The details of how to handle divorce & remarriage and church membership seems to be the only other thing (other than personalities) that would divide the rest. There seems to be a little overlapping here in Texas between the "Signs" & "Remnant" groups, and perhaps some interest in forgetting divisions that remain from long forgotten issues in the distant past.

I have heard a few Primitive Baptists here say that it is their practice, rather than their theology that is the real difference.

Interesting; I wonder if no one has yet realized that they could split over this??

Concerning the Strict Baptists, if memory serves from a correspondence I had with a Strict Baptist in England, the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists are the only group of Strict Baptists left. There was another group called the Christian Pathway Strict Baptists, and at least one more group. Kind of like some Primitive Baptists, they were identified by which paper they were "associated" with - Gospel Standard, Christian Pathway, et.al. I think this brother said that basically the CP Strict Baptists died out and what was left merged with the Gospel Standards. Jeff, I have lost the link to the church in Florida that used the Gadsby hymn book. I remember that it was called Lealman Church. I've searched for it on the web, but haven't been able to find it again.

Concerning the Covenanted Baptist Church of Canada, I can probably find out next weekend as to their current status. Last I heard, an elder from the States was going up to preach for them once in a while, and the only remaining Canadian elder had joined a Primitive Baptist church in the States (due to internal church problems). Their fellowship, at least in recent times, has been with the Absolute Predestinarians.

 

Robert, we have had a number of new Baptist groups form in Canada the last few years (10-20 years). One is the Fundamental Baptists....one even meets in the same building owned by a Fellowship Baptist Church, which is also a kjo type congregation...by choice though); the other is a Reformed Baptist group.....Calvinist to the core. I will try to get more information in a day or two. There is a possibility that this Covenanter church could link up with the Reformed group,,I suspect theology would be quite similar.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Originally by rsr:

Yep, this is the same Dorgan. Very nice fellow. He is currently working on something to do with the Separate Baptists.

Jeff.

 

By RLV:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am curious as to what sense you mean liberal. Despite all the divisions that exist among Absoluters here in Texas, I haven't found any substantial difference in hardly any of them, except one group that openly holds God is the author of sin. The details of how to handle divorce & remarriage and church membership seems to be the only other thing (other than personalities) that would divide the rest. There seems to be a little overlapping here in Texas between the "Signs" & "Remnant" groups, and perhaps some interest in forgetting divisions that remain from long forgotten issues in the distant past. </font>[/QUOTE]Robert by liberal, I mean that they are the only group among the Absoloute Predestinarian faction that would even consider going on the internet (there are a couple of rare exceptions). The difference is very small, but the editor of the Signs considered the Remnant a "liberal" publication. Of course liberal is by degree. Even the most liberal Primitive Baptist of any stripe would likely be considered ulta-conservative by most anyone else.

Jeff.

 

You are, of course correct, I musta mistyped. Sorry about that.

I ain't going to tell them.

Your information is probably more up to date than mine, and I will defer your knowledge of the subject as being more nearly correct. I suppose I should ring up the folks with the Strict Baptist Church in Montana and inquire.

Not a problem, but do you remember what type church it was?

The last part of the comment I will confirm. I heard that Elder David Gardner was going up there occasionally. Elder Gardner is a member of a church associated with the Signs of the Times, and one that was in the old Kehukee Association in eastern North Carolina. Whether or not he is still going up or not, I don't know, I haven't spoken with him for several years.

Another comment about the differences between Absoloute Predestinarian and "Old Line" churches. Here in the east there have been several churches which have left fellowship with the Absolute Predestinarian factions and have realigned with the Old Line folks. I don't know if this is happening in reverse or in other areas or not. Some of the brethren in Texas objected to our acceptance of these churches, so I suspect that the issue is local. The most notable of these switches has been that of Black Rock church in Baltimore County, Maryland. This is the Black Rock Church of the Black Rock Address fame. I have attended this church and they are a fine group of folks.

As for the whole issue of Absoloute Predestination/Limited Predestination issue, prior to the early 1930s it wasn't an issue. I wish that was still the case. I know there are members in some "Old Line" churches here that believe in Absolute Predestination, but keep it quiet. I suspect the reverse is also true. I can find things in scripture which point to both schools of thought, and I personally don't know which is the correct interpretation. It is something that I tend to leave alone, although I tend toward the non-Absolute point of view. (Now when you all get mad at me, just send this to my church, and they will probably kick me to the curb.) I really wish it wasn't an issue.

Jeff.

 

This is a list of the Reformed Baptist Churches now in Canada. Some are new works and some withdrew from the Fellowship of Evangelical Baptist Churches.

A few of the men attended the same seminary as did I, and that explains their strong Calvinistic views.

Cheers,

Jim

Canada

Bath Road Baptist Church Irwin: Troy - Associate Pastor, Ryttersgaurd: Peter - Pastor. 193 Bath Road Kingston, Ontario, K7M 2X6 (613) 548-4564 (Church)

Covenant Christian Church Brehaut: Don P.O. Box 486 Petitcodiac New Brunswick Canada, E0A 2H0 (506) 756-2896 dbrehaut@nbnet.nb.ca

Covenant Reformed Baptist Church of Orillia Tuck, Ed 64 Coldwater Street East Orillia, Ontario Canada (705) 327-2352 ed.tuck@encode.com

Covenant Reformed Baptist Church of Orillia Schenk, Karl 64 Coldwater Street East Orillia, Ontario Canada (705) 329-0466 kschenk@bconnex.net

Faith Reformed Baptist Church Thompson, Gary 3837 Lawrence Avenue East Scarborough, Ontario, Canada MIG 1R2 (416) 431-0095 gary.thompson@sympatico.ca

Free Grace Reformed Baptist Church Meeting place: 1807 2a Ave North P O Box 1183 Lethbridge AB T1J 4A4 CANADA Marvin Burton (Deacon) Ph/Fax (403) 317-9071 Maurice Indenbosch (Deacon) PH (403) 553-2693 Fax (403) 553-2744 fgrbc@telusplanet.net

Free Grace Baptist Church Butler, James 9580 Armstrong Chilliwack, B.C. V2P 6H4 (604) 795-2686 jpbutler@uniserve.com

Grace Baptist Church Lennox: Rory 2202 Rt 560, Lakeville, New Brunswick, E7K 1W8 506 375-6699 rmlennox@nbnet.nb.ca

Grace Baptist Church of Essex Valade, Richard 120 Talbot North Essex, Ontario N8M 2C4 (519) 776-6222 gbce@juno.com

Hope Assembly Bodner, John PO Box 158 Port Credit, Mississauga Ontario, Canada (905) 848-4673 (Church)

Hope Assembly Bodner, John 1090 Dunddas East Mississauga, Ontario Canada (905) 848-4673 (Church) (416) 604-3828 (Home)

Mount Pleasant Rd. Baptist Church, 527 Mount Pleasant Rd. (2 Blocks north of Davisville Dr. - at the corner of Belsize and Mt. Pleasant) Nearest Subway Station: Davisville and Yonge Street- about a 10 minute walk
Free parking at the Church and across the street at "Falcon Building". A Reformed Baptist Church: Upholding the Doctrine of God's Sovereign Grace in the heart of Toronto. Rev. Tom Murphy, BTh. Pastor. http://www3.sympatico.ca/mprbc/

Orillia Baptist Church Beerman, Frank Anderson, George Box 524 Orillia, Ontario L3V 6K2 (705) 326-4576 gonefishing@iname.com (Beerman) gra@barint.on.ca (Anderson)

Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Pastor Dwayne Srorey, 506.386.7722, 105 Howard Ave., Riverview

Sovereign Grace Baptist Church Meeting at 8134 Hyde Street. Office and Christian Learning Centre Held At #5 33132 1st Avenue Mission BC Canada Mail Box 3382 Mission V2V 4J4 phone 604-820-3448
Email: sovereigngrace@bizland.com
Website: http://sovereigngrace.bizland.com/growinthegraceandknowledgeofjesuschrist/index.html

Sovereign Grace Fellowship, Box 2633, Prince George, B.C. Canada, V2N 4T5, (Meeting at 470 - 3rd Ave, Prince George, B.C.), Jonathan Thomas, pastor, life_spring@telus.net. We invite you to visit the home page of the church we are attending. http://sovereign-grace.prince-george.tzo.com

Trinity Baptist Church Muller, Carl Burlington, Ontario cmuller@hwcn.org

Trinity Baptist Church Dyck, Peter 185 Pettingill Road Quispamsis NB E2E 2V6 (Canada) (506) 848-0085 (Pastor's home) (506) 847-9182 (Church) pdyck@attcanada.net

Westboro Baptist Church Oosterman: William 307 Richmond Rd. Ottawa, Ontario Canada K1Z 6X3 (613) 722-1893 (church) (613) 722-1338 (fax) (613) 728-4530 (home) williamo@echelon.ca



Colombia

 

By the way, I just remembered that the Primitive Baptist Churches in England are called the Grace Baptist Churches...they are few in number and mostly in the midlands. Not all carry the name Baptist, as I mentioned before, but prefer cottage type names,,Tabernacle, Fellowship, etc

Cheers,

Jim

 

rsr, that is the correct church. Did you find any web page? They did have one at one time. Jeff, this Lealman church referred to itself as Old School Baptist, but as far as I could tell they are not in fellowship with either group of Primitive Baptists in that area.

Jim, I am familiar with the Bath Road Church. I get a monthly sermon by Charles Spurgeon from them. As far as the Grace Baptists in England, I obtained a few minutes from them about 10 or so years ago. They were not in fellowship with the Strict Baptists. I think it may have been that some of the Grace Baptists did not practice closed communion. I'm not completely sure of the differences; they seem to be strong "Calvinists." If I have time to "dig out" their annual, I might be able to tell.

 

Brother Robert, the pastor who started the Baptist work on Bath Road, Kingston, and I were at seminary together...He has long since retired, but the new pastor of about ten years is also a graduate of the Toronto Baptist Seminary.....T.T. Shields was the president,,he is rather famous......also, professors there were Landmarkers.....Dr. George B. Fletcher, Systematic Theology (Newport News, Virginia (deceased) and Dr. C.D. Cole (Biblical Theology) of Kentucky. His name is well known from Bryan Station Baptist Church in Lexington, Ky,,their website is: http://www.bryanstation.com. They send out a monthly bulletin and reprint quite a few booklets,,including the Trail of Blood and all of Dr. Cole's books. In fact, the lead story in the January bulletin is Hannah,,,the woman who kept her promise by C.D. Cole. The pastor there is Brother Alfred Gormley.

Cheers,

JIm

 

Dear Bro. Jeff,
Please explain what "non-resurrectionist" Primitive Brethren are.
Thanks, everybody, for fascinating reading.

Karen

 

Dear Sis. Karen

Non-resurrectionists Primitive Baptists are identical to other Primitive Baptists except they do not expect a resurrection of these mortal bodies. I should point out they are an extremely small minority of Primitive Baptists and there are those in other Baptists factions and other denominations who hold to that notion. I personally don't subscribe to it, and can't really elaborate on why some would take that position. But they seem to think along the lines of if the thief was going to be with Christ that very day in paradise, what is the point.

Please feel free to jump into the conversation with your point of view or questions. I like this little corner of the Board perhaps better than any other of its neighborhoods.

Jeff.

 

Browsing around the net this morning and found this item, a short sample of a congregational hymn from the Indian Bottom Association of Old Regular Baptists.:
http://www.folkways.si.edu/40106.htm The record is from Folkways.

Here is another real audio sample of the Day is Past and Gone.

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/sound/orb1.ra

We Primitive sing in the same style. For those that have never heard, it can be difficult to comprehend.

Enjoy.

Jeff

[ January 06, 2003, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Jeff Weaver ]

 

Very interesting discussion.
I'm just a lurker but wanted to put in a question.
Would anyone care to document a brief history of the splits that have occurred since the mid 1800's? I'm referring to the U.S. splits such as happened in the South, especially with regard to Landmarkism and the splits within Landmarkism.
I'm sure Br.Robert is more familiar with this than any other but, would like to hear from all. We honestly don't hear much other than "my side."
JLS