Bro. Glen wrote:
I don't want to steal Jeffs thunder but I also have a question for Jim... Did you not say that there were Primitive Baptist in Canada or was that England and where are they?... Or am I in error and you never made that statement? How far do our Primitive Baptist roots run and are there others close to our beliefs and practices and who are they?... For you other brethren what ever happened to the Trumpet and Peace Baptist?...
Bro. Glen.
Not stealing my thunder, I don't have any to steal. My got up and go, got up and went.
As for the question, I will give it a stab, with the caveat that it is open to correction.
In Canada, there was a group known as the Covenanted Baptist Church, which was recognized as an exact equivalent of Primitive Baptists there. Years ago I met Elder George Rushton, who was their leader, when he was on a preaching appointment in eastern North Carolina. We discussed these folks earlier in this thread.
In the United Kingdom there are the Strict Baptists, who would mirror our theology but have some differences in practice. These folks are divided into two or three camps, and I don't fully understand their differences. S, F, Paul, wrote a history of the Strict Baptists in the 1950s, and it is a useful set of books to understanding them. I haven't read them for a number of years, but have them somewhere. The group recognized in America as most orthodox are known as the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists. This is the group of which J. C. Philpot, William Gadsby amd John Warburton were members (among others).
The Gospel Standar folks have three or four churches in the United States. They also have churches in India and Kenya, as I understand it (any maybe otherplaces as well -- I have heard rumors of them in Jamaica, the Bahamas, and Bermuda, but I just don't really know.
In Germany, Sylvester Hassell reported in 1885 that there were a group known as "Grace Baptists" and he stated that they were our eqivalent there, but I have no current knowledge of them.
In America Primitive Baptists are fractured, as you are well aware, and below is my summary of what is what.
I. Absoloute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists, aka, Old School Baptists in some quarters. This group is divided badly among itself. There seems to be no underlying theological difference among any of them, but rather are fractured due to personality conflicts. Each major group has its own publication, which defines who is in and who is out. These publications are:
a. The Signs of the Times, established by Elder Gilbert Bebee in the 1840s, and currently published by the brethren of the Pigg River Association of Southside Virginia. This group was at one time the largest faction of this subgroup of Primitive Baptists, but have recently fractured among themselves.
b. Zion's Landmark, established by P. D. Gold in the 19th century. This group is fairly large, and principally centered in eastern North Carolina.
c. The Remnant. This is the most recent of these publications, begun by Elder James Poole of Salisbury Maryland. This group began when a conflict over the editorial policy for the Signs of the Times broke out. This group would no doubt reject my characterization, but they are the liberals of the Absolute Predestinarian Primitive (or Old School) Primitive Baptists.
d. There are other Absolute Predestinarian Primitive Baptists who would have nothing to do with either of the forgoing groups.
II. Old Line Primitive Baptists. As you are well aware, the Old Line Primitive Baptists are currently in the process of a major schism, and it is unclear, at least to me, how it will all fall out. Like so many divisions, personalities are involved, as well as points of practice. Unfortunately (or forunately depending on your point of view), some of the more progressive brethern in this camp are embracing a formal calvinistic views. I know a debate on this erupted in the last couple of days on David Montgomery's web site's forum. I could supply the names, places, etc. to settle the matter, but haven't and won't. It seems to me that it would only cause additional confusion. At any rate, you are aware of the issues.
The Old Line folks who are perhaps more evangelical than others have established congregations in the Philippines, Kenya, India and Poland. I understand there is a movement afoot to go to Costa Rica. I am out here in the hill of Virginia, and I dont have first hand knowledge of these churches.
III. Progressive Primitive Baptists. Largely center in Georgia, but with churches in other places as well. Theologically there are few, if any differences with Old Line Primitive Baptists, but the division is over modern means. Some members of the Absolute Predestinarian and Old Line Primitive Baptists would reject the notion that they should even be on this list. I don't personally share that view. The Progressive Primitive Baptists, have, as I understand it, established congregations in parts of the former Soviet Union, notably in Ukraine.
IV. Universalists Primitive Baptists. Centered in the mountains of Southwestern Virginia, West Virginia, East Tennessee and Kentucky. These folks believe that every human who ever lived will eventually end up in heaven and immortal glory. We discussed these folks sometime back. Howard Dorgan wrote a book about these folks called, "Children of a Happy God." Dorgan is an academic type, but he treated them with sympathy. But he missed several of them. There is a church in Indiana which has switched from Old Line to this point of view in the last few years. In Alabama several Old Line Churches have divided in the last few years as well on this point, and as a result there are some Universalists Primitive Baptists there.
There is another scattering of Primitive Baptists who lie between Universalists Primitive Baptists and Old Line Primitive Baptists -- specifically those who hold to an idea of annihilation of the wicked at the judgment. Many who hold this view, keep it to themselves, and officially remain in the Old Line camp. I know some of them, a relative of mine, Elder Charles Weaver, was one of the first advocates of this theory.
V. Nonresurrectionist Primitive Baptists. There are scattered churches here and there who hold to this notion.
VI. In South Alabama, there is a group of Primitive Baptists, of whom I have little knowledge, but said to be exceedingly conservative, and not affiliated with any of the groups listed above. There has been some contact between our Appalachian folks and this group in the last year or so, but I wasn't privy to the conversations, and never inquired about them.
VII. In Upper East Tennessee and Southwest Virginia there is a group known as the Eastern District Primitive Baptist Association, a fairly large group of people, who claim the Primitive Baptist name, but would have theologically more in common with Old Regulars than other Primitive Baptists. Old Regulars are for the most part modified calvinists in theology, but Primitive Baptist in practice.
VIII. There is at least one "Old Regular" Baptist Association here in southwest Virginia that is considering switching to become fully Primitive Baptist. I have no idea how all that will work out.
IX. African American Primitive Baptists seem to have never divided as badly as their European-American counterparts. I spoke at length with Elder Willie Vaughn of the Cub Run Primitive Baptist Association and Dr. Samuels, President of the National Primitive Baptist Convention (Progressive) about this. The only major division they have had is over progressive ideals. Elder Vaughn would hold to an old line approach, The African-American brethern in this part of the world never divided over the issue of Absolute/Non-Absolute Predestination of all things. It is an anomoly of polity I suppose, but some non-Absolute white Primitive Baptists will send delegates to the African American associational meetings, where there are delegates from other African-American associations who will received correspondents from white Absolute predesinarian associations. (Did that make any sense at all? You need a flow chart to understand it).
While most European American Primitive Baptists would reject the idea that the Progressive African-American Primitive Baptists are indeed Primitive Baptists, from my conversations with Dr. Samuels, I would disagree. His theology was quite orthodox.
I suspect that is far more than most readers here ever wanted to know about we Primitive Baptists.
Jeff.
BTW, this will be my 600th post. An ill-spent mid-life. 