A Bar Room Ditty?

[tyndale1946]

I wanted to post this here to see what Brother Robert has to say and either affirm or deny the thought of some that hymns to tunes in church were once bar room ditties... Some of these beloved hymn were once drinking songs or songs of merriment, at least the tunes were and the words were changed... I guess I could go on the internet to find out the answer but that would take all the fun out of it... I felt I would run this by Brother Robert our music historian, who can give us the answer and a little history behind it... And where this idea came from?... Is it just me or have others heard the same thing?... Brother Glen

 

[rsr]

It is not, in general, true. The only song in the hymnal that I know of that could be considered a drinking song is the tune of "The Star-Spangled Banner."

Here's a good read which deals with confusion between bar form and barroom tunes:

Christian Mythstory: Hymns and Drinking Songs

 

[Deacon]

It's been a few years but when I was in youth group an activity was to sing Amazing Grace to the tune of a popular song.

The winner used "Take me out to the ball game."

Rob

 

[Berean]

As a lover of most all kinds of music (There are two kinds of sound; noise, and music, music is that which is pleasing to the ear) It has always been my contention that music is Amoral (without moral principles) It is the lyrics or words that are assigned that determines whether it be Moral or Immoral. Yes there are several hymns that were adapted from "bar tunes"..

 

[Covenanter]

Many (most?) hymn tunes are shared with secular songs - dance or folk tunes & tunes derived from classical compositions.

I was challenged after playing "Waly, waly" (The water is wide) to "When I survey the wondrous cross."

"Glorious things of thee are spoken" is normally sung to a tune from a Haydn quartet - also used for "Deutschland uber alle" - Hitler's national anthem.

A catchy tune will always find words. When I write a hymn, I normally have a tune with the right meter in mind.

The only specific bar song I am aware of being taken over is "Champagne Charlie" . "Bless his name he sets me free."

Booth’s unorthodox techniques shocked and horrified many Victorians, who felt that he was giving Christianity a brash, vulgar image. When Salvationists began to use brass instruments to accompany their songs, the words of hymns were put to the day’s pop songs. When a converted sea captain began to sing Bless His Name to the melody of one of the day’s popular tunes, William Booth was delighted with its catchy, rhythmical tune and asked its title. “Champagne Charlie Is My Name,” was the reply. At this, Booth stood thinking for a few minutes, then turned to his eldest son, Bramwell, and said: “That has settled it. Why should the Devil have all the best tunes?”

If critics accused Booth of reducing religion to music hall entertainment, the audiences loved it. Everything which the Salvationists introduced was designed to appeal to the masses, and such tactics worked. If a brass band helped to convert a sinner, how could the use of one be thought wrong?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

As a lover of most all kinds of music (There are two kinds of sound; noise, and music, music is that which is pleasing to the ear) It has always been my contention that music is Amoral (without moral principles) It is the lyrics or words that are assigned that determines whether it be Moral or Immoral. Yes there are several hymns that were adapted from "bar tunes"..

If Music is Neutral

Absolutely not true, music itself communicates apart from words. Your presupposition is false.

 

[tyndale1946]

Many (most?) hymn tunes are shared with secular songs - dance or folk tunes & tunes derived from classical compositions.

I was challenged after playing "Waly, waly" (The water is wide) to "When I survey the wondrous cross."

"Glorious things of thee are spoken" is normally sung to a tune from a Haydn quartet - also used for "Deutschland uber alle" - Hitler's national anthem.

A catchy tune will always find words. When I write a hymn, I normally have a tune with the right meter in mind.

The only specific bar song I am aware of being taken over is "Champagne Charlie" . "Bless his name he sets me free."

Thanks Ian for that visual on Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken, Haydn I can handle but I don't know if I'll ever be able to sing that one again, knowing it was the tune to Hitler's National Anthem... Brother Glen

 

[rsr]

Don't worry, Bro. Glen. It was originally composed as a national hymn (in imitation of "God Save the King") during the Napoleonic Wars and became the Austrian national anthem. The tune, with new words (written in the mid-19th century), became "Deutschland Uber Alles" and was adopted by the Weimar Republic as its anthem in 1922. The first verse was tacked onto the "Horst Vessel Song" to become the Nazi anthem, and "Deutschland" (third verse) was resurrected as the West German anthem (without "Horst Vessel," which is banned in Germany.)

 

[Covenanter]

And "God save the king" has an interesting history. Written after the Jacobite invasion in 1745, supported by the Scots.

Included verses -

O Lord our God arise
Scatter our enemies
And make them fall.
Confound their politics
Frustrate their knavish tricks
On thee our hopes we fix
God save us all.

Lord grant that Marshal Wade
May by thy mighty aid
Victory bring.
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush.
God save the King!

 

[rlvaughn]

I wanted to post this here to see what Brother Robert has to say and either affirm or deny the thought of some that hymns to tunes in church were once bar room ditties... Some of these beloved hymn were once drinking songs or songs of merriment, at least the tunes were and the words were changed...

Brother rsr's answer, pasted below, is the correct one, in my opinion. In general this charge is not accurate.

It is not, in general, true....Here's a good read which deals with confusion between bar form and barroom tunes:

Christian Mythstory: Hymns and Drinking Songs

Obviously there are some tunes of which we do not know their origins. Often combined with this "bar room ditties" idea is the "fact" that John Wesley (or Martin Luther, or John Newton, or surely someone important) asked, "Why should the Devil have all the good music?" as a justification for stealing the world's music. I've never seen that proven true, either.

In addition to the Star-Spangled Banner (which is not in our song book), I am aware of another tune that has been identified as a drinking song. There is a prohibition text in The Sacred Harp that the prohibitionists, ironically and apparently deliberately, set to the drinking song Krambambuli. The title is O Come Away. I'm not aware of it being in any church hymnals, but it may be.

It's been a few years but when I was in youth group an activity was to sing Amazing Grace to the tune of a popular song.

If my memory serves, I think I once heard "Amazing grace how sweet the sound" sung to "The House of the Rising Sun" (the one by The Animals). [But not in church.]

 

[Covenanter]

It works both ways - I understand that on a Yorkshire church outing a couple got lost on Ilkley Moor.
A song was made up to welcome their return - "Ilkley Moor Bah T'at" to the hymn tune Cranbrook, now used occasionally for "While Shepherds watched their flocks."

 

[Covenanter]

The trouble with Cranbrook is the the parody became extremely popular, so that singing hymns was singing to a popular song.

But when you sing that repeated last line becomes very powerful. Especially compared with the usual tune for While shepherds watched.

 

[rlvaughn]

We sing Cranbrook from William Walker's Christian Harmony, with Doddridge's "Grace! 'tis a charming sound!" text.

Here is Chris Brown of West Yorkshire leading it (July 2015 at Bradwell-on-Sea, Essex, England):

What is your usual tune for "While shepherds watched their flocks by night?"

 

[rsr]

Obviously there are some tunes of which we do not know their origins. Often combined with this "bar room ditties" idea is the "fact" that John Wesley (or Martin Luther, or John Newton, or surely someone important) asked, "Why should the Devil have all the good music?" as a justification for stealing the world's music. I've never seen that proven true, either.

Yes, it has been repeated ad nauseum, usually stated as a self-evident fact. You can't find it in Luther's writings, and anyone who knows anything about John Wesley would know it would appall him to think of using drinking songs as hymn tunes (Charles apparently did once, but for a specific purpose).

As you noted on your blog, it's also attributed to Rowland Hill, a Calvinistic Methodist who was a disciple of Whitefield. Unfortunately, many of the authorities simply throw off the quote without any other detail; worse, some quotations place it as having been made after Hill went on to his eternal reward in 1833. It certainly sounds like something he might say, given his propensity for "contemporary" music at Surrey Chapel; he is said to have written a hymn specifically to be sung to the tune of "Rule, Brittania." At least one of William Booth's biographers has Booth quoting Hill on the topic, and it also would have in line with Booth's sentiments.

 

[rlvaughn]

One song book gets back close to the date -- 1844 -- that is often given with Rowland Hill and the devil's tunes quote. This is The Christian's Spiritual Song Book by John Stamp in 1845 (3rd edition), "upwards of 500 spiritual songs adapted to popular tunes."

"Why should the devil have the best tunes?" was of the language of the Wesleys, Rowland Hill, George Whitefield, Hugh Bourne, and other champions of the cross."

Another piece on Luther and Bar Songs can be found HERE.

 

[Covenanter]

We sing Cranbrook from William Walker's Christian Harmony, with Doddridge's "Grace! 'tis a charming sound!" text.

Here is Chris Brown of West Yorkshire leading it (July 2015 at Bradwell-on-Sea, Essex, England):

What is your usual tune for "While shepherds watched their flocks by night?"

The tune "everybody" sings it to is Winchester Old, which IMO is a weak tune for such wonderful words. Even when sung by a top choir.

Cranbrook is a great tune. I think it was composed for "Grace, 'tis a charming sound."

Is "Ilkley moor bah t'at" known over there?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I was challenged after playing "Waly, waly" (The water is wide) to "When I survey the wondrous cross."

We do this quite often in my church; I think it works very well.
You can sing Amazing Grace to the tune of House of the Rising Sun, and it works, except that it's hard to keep the words of the latter out of one's mind while singing the former.

Some tunes are totally inappropriate. You wouldn't sing Amazing Grace to the tune of The Laughing Policeman even though it fits.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

O Lord our God arise
Scatter our enemies
And make them fall.
Confound their politics
Frustrate their knavish tricks
On thee our hopes we fix
God save us all.

I often think of this verse in connection with the U.K.'s current negotiations with the E.U.

 

[rlvaughn]

The tune "everybody" sings it to is Winchester Old, which IMO is a weak tune for such wonderful words. Even when sung by a top choir.

I think the common tune in our section is an arrangement tune generally called Christmas. I say I think because I recall that text is in our book, but we generally never sing it. I'll have to remember to look tonight and see what tune it is. The tunes I associate with "While shepherds watched" are Glory Shone Around by T. J. Allen and Sherburne by Daniel Read. Since they are fuging tunes, they are more commonly sung at singing conventions rather than church. These two are not in our church books but in our Sacred Harp.

Cranbrook is a great tune. I think it was composed for "Grace, 'tis a charming sound."

Is "Ilkley moor bah t'at" known over there?

I am not familiar with it, but it is probably known in certain circles.

 

[rsr]

One song book gets back close to the date -- 1844 -- that is often given with Rowland Hill and the devil's tunes quote. This is The Christian's Spiritual Song Book by John Stamp in 1845 (3rd edition), "upwards of 500 spiritual songs adapted to popular tunes."

I have run across accounts of 1844 services at Surrey Chapel commemorating the centennial of Hill's birth; it's possible the quote might have been in one of the sermons preached then.

Hill's first hymnal dates from 1783; his successor at Surrey Chapel, James Sherman, issued a new hymnal in 1844. I have not seen a copy of that.