A Basic Question to all Calvinists

If the Bible is true, then God did ordain sins

On what authority do you make this statement? The Bible doesn't say it. It says people are responsible for their sins, even in the case of sins the Bible calls predestined ones.
See Acts 2 and 4 and Isaiah 10.

 

Hello Sire.

I am afraid I can't remember the thread where I asked about your name so I thought I'd stick my response to it here.

King James was a Scot who became King of England and united our two countries for the good so don't give up hope of becoming President of the United States too quicky.

King James was an evangelist of the true gospel, which automatically made him an enemy of Rome. King James strongly delineated the errors of Roman superstition and spurned them yet he treated Romanist subjects fairly. Catholic ambassador Nicolo Molin said this of King James:

"He is a Protestant...the King tries to extend his Protestant religion to the whole island. The King is a bitter enemy of our religion. He frequently speaks of it in terms of contempt. He is all the harsher because of this last conspiracy against his life...He understood that the Jesuits had a hand in it."
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/kingbio.htm

So I thought I'd point out this oddity to you, might be you mean another King James as this one was a Calvinist!

What you mean 'if'? Since?
" RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But that ain't going to be you is it Sire? You refuse to ask the question don't you? You say that is wrong but God says you should ask that question so He can scare the Hell out of you. Why's He still blame us then? Answer the question please. "For who resists His will?"

I would agree with your logic but your logic is overcoming God's word which is not a logical thing to do.
He can do as He likes with us and with anything else He owns everything.

If your theology does not lead you to ask that question then there is something wrong with your theology. That's logical.
" RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

john.

 

Hello russell.

Thought I'd knock this thread back up the page to give more time for your answer to arrive man! Forgetfulness gets me sometimes.

Yes is my answer to your question.

john.

 

Thanks. Although I'm thinking it is more likely being ignored. On purpose.

 

No Russell...I haven't been here in a few days. See...my aunt is dying of cancer and my parents were in a motorcycle accident. I have other important things to deal with than an internet forum.

JohnP...you err using that passage. Maybe we can't blame God for our "pre-ordained" sins (which would only be logical) but who says that passage is used in regards to SALVATION??? For God Himself DID say that He wills that ALL would be saved! Or didn't He? Does that make God confused? Or are you just confused? Or are you just trying to confuse the rest of us with your Calvinist-speak where all doesn't mean all, yada yada yada?

Frankly I'm weary of the absolute harsh and unloving Calvin-babble from Calvinists who seem to think they are something special cuz they were saved but others aren't. You get off from saying God ordains all yet you contradict it and say we are responsible for our sins.

Does God ordain and take pleasure in a child being molested? If you think so, you are sick. You're all just a little too ridiculous if you ask me...and in this case when I say all...all means all.

 

For God Himself DID say that He wills that ALL would be saved! Or didn't He?

Unfortunately, All means the elect... which you do not want to understand. Read the context. The end times will not happen because ALL have not come to repentance. ALL of the elect, that's the only reason why the world is still going, once the NUMBER is full, then the end. But God is patient, waiting for ALL of the elect to come to repentance.

If God is WILLING to save ALL like you think, and God perfectly accomplishes EVERYTHING He WILLS, then it would follow (given your logic) that EVERYONE will be saved, because no one can thwart His purpose. You've got a big problem.

 

I wasn't referring to you, but to Icthus, who seems to be purposefully ignoring the scripture I posted for him. And I'm sorry about the troubles....

Huh? Who thinks they are special because they are saved an others aren't? A calvinist of all people ought to know that they were also children of God's wrath just like everyone else. That it is nothing within them that saves them, but only God's grace.

Please prove that the two things are contradictions. If we still act from our own motives and for our own reasons, why could we not be held responsible for our sins?

He doesn't take pleasure in it, in the sense that it makes him happy, or that he enjoys having it happen. But couldn't he prevent it if he chose to? Since he doesn't, that must mean he chooses to allow it to happen for a reason. And if he chooses to allow it to happen for a reason, then he ordains it.

Let me ask you two questions: Does God ordain a young man being sold into slavery? Does he ordain an innocent man getting the death penalty?

 

Ok Russell, sorry for the misunderstanding. And thanks.

Now...Calvinists think they are special. They come across like that, they appear elitist and they appear VERY cold-hearted...not only towards the lost but to CHRISTIANS who don't believe as they do.

If we act from our motives for our own reasons we ARE responsible. But not if God ordains us to do that. After all...we can't resist His will. If it's His will for us to do that, how can we be responsible?

God would ordain a young man to be sold into slavery,yes. He did it with Joseph...for a reason. But let's not forget He loved Joseph. He doesn't love most of the world according to Calvinists. He ordained an innocent man getting the death penalty in order to save sinners (all who call upon Him). But He wills that all would call upon Him.

rc...you make sense there. But I can't believe in a God who ordains sin and holds men responsible for it. And I can't believe in a God who "supposedly" loves all mankind and then hates most of them. And I can't believe in a God who hates me for being born. For if He loves someone apart from what they've done, then it follows that He hates someone apart from what they've done. Therefore, I can't even know if He loves me. Thanks. But hey...yer still happy...no skin off your Calvinist back when someone is struggling to work out their faith.

 

But I can't believe in a God who ordains sin and holds men responsible for it.

Romans 9:19 9 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

Paul anticipated your problem a long time ago KJ.
My advice is to listen to Paul's answer. If Paul reasoned for mans libertarian free will, don't you think this question would not EVEN come up? .... But it does doesn't it.

Really, come to grips with this. If Paul said, Man is completely free and is ABLE by His OWN FREE WILL because GOD has left just enough good in Him to make a completely free choice for His salvation, and He chooses NOT to pick Christ... HE WILL GO TO HELL!! Who then in their right mind would say EVER... "THAT'S not fair! God can't hold me accountable for who can resist His will! ... See? ... it's silly... the question would NEVER come up! But it does doesn't it.... Because today man still is fighting against God, thinking he has some say in it, some power, and Paul knowing man, anticipated mans thinking and gave the answer by which YOU MUST HUMBLE YOURSELF and admit.

Romans 9:20-21 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

 

rc...I know what you are saying. And I used to think like you. But...how can I believe in a God who is NOT like I have been taught He was and who is NOT like the Bible even says He was? The Bible says He loves mankind. Now He doesn't? And how can I KNOW he loves ME? And why should I love anyone when HE doesn't? Surely you can answer these questions. Another question: how is there even people that Christ says "I never knew you"...when those people can't even "go to" Christ apart from the Holy Spirit according to Calvinism. I don't understand this.

 

Answers...anyone???

 

That figures. Honest questions I need answers to and...nothing. Just as I expected.

 

First off, if your questions are not honest then please say so and we won't waste any time. If your questions are honest then the best advice I could give you is to get off the internet. Spend whatever time you would have spent here in the Word instead.

Chances are that whatever you have been told about God, and whatever you know about what the Bible says about God, is incomplete. You need to wrestle with the idea that the God Who "is love" is the same God Who sent pagans to completely destroy His chosen city and to wipe out His chosen people (save a small remnant). I cannot possibly understand how both of those things could be true but the Bible says that both are true, so I must believe both.

How do you know that He loves you? 1Jo 3:16 - "By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers." So you and I should love the brothers because He does.

The reason that people cannot go to Christ, according to Calvinism, is not because God will not let them. It is because their sin will not let them. They love their sin and will not leave it for anything, even under the threat of eternal punishment.

 

to whatever:
i really like how you've explained things in your last post. it's so true (my own POV) that yes! no matter how hard i 'will' to turn to christ i just can't - simply because my sin won't let me go. i think there is a clear difference there and i agree totally that it's not because God doesn't let me come to him! i dont believe i am one of the 'non elect' either! God will have his way with me, whatever that may be. i don't have the bible knowledge that most of the posters on here have, but it is such a misunderstanding to say that God doesn't let people come to him. i believe that turning from my sin is something that only God can do for me. i know how weak i am and how much of a slave to sin i am - i wouldn't even trust myself to make such a decision! i dont totally agree with either calvin or arminian, but thats one thing that i know for sure. i am weak and he is strong. only God can save me.

'inpeace'

 

Whatever...yep...honest questions.

inpeace...according to Calvinism and logic man CAN'T come to God; it's not that they don't want to, it's that God doesn't want them to. So yes, it would be that God doesn't let them come to Him. Let's be intellectually honest here and not try to "protect" God's reputation.

As for "no matter how hard i 'will' to turn to christ i just can't", I think that's an excuse. All people have to FIGHT against their sin nature, whether to repent and become saved or in their daily lives if they are already saved.

Anyways, though I don't agree with you thanks for keeping it civil. God bless.

 

But did he ordain that Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery?

But did he ordain the acts of those who gave the innocent man the death penalty?

 

No, the "can't" is because they always don't want to. They are completely opposed to God, and that opposition to God always keeps them from coming to him.

You are the one not being intellectually honest. The barrier to anyone coming is within their own hearts. It's the natural condition of fallen peoople. It has nothing to do with God's action toward them. Anyone who wants to come can come, but sinners in their natural born state don't want to come.

 

No, the "can't" is because they always don't want to. They are completely opposed to God, and that opposition to God always keeps them from coming to him.

You are the one not being intellectually honest. The barrier to anyone coming is within their own hearts. It's the natural condition of fallen peoople. It has nothing to do with God's action toward them. Anyone who wants to come can come, but sinners in their natural born state don't want to come. </font>[/QUOTE]I am not being intellectually dishonest brother. You are telling me that it is not that God isn't letting them come but that they don't WANT to come. Yet Calvinists turn around and say the opposite. they can't come because God won't LET them come. Both can't be right according to the little law of non-contradiction. No wonder I am angry with Calvinism. Its' adherents talk out of both sides of their mouths.

It is insincere to the extreme to say that God chose whom He would save (as Calvinists do), and in the same breath to say anyone who wants to come can come. That is insincere hogwash. Either God is in control (like Calvinists say) and He has to LET someone come, or He is not and then anyone can come. You can't have it both ways. No...I am not being intellectually dishonest at all. Far from it.

 

Hello inpeace.

Php 1:6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Amen.
GAL 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Just keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, nothing but Christ crucified, and He will change us. We are forgiven all our sins.

And you believe He has? Because if you believe that then that is the only requirement. Trust in God trust also in me. John14:1.

(Excuse me KJ.) so that you do not do what you want. Gal 5:17. How can we fight that which we don't do? How do we claim to do good when the Holy Spirit boasts that it is Him? so that you do not do what you want. (Romans 7)
Great excuse. Believe it when I say I am not under law and in full knowledge of my salvation. I am free. Jesus Christ died for my sins. Praise His Name. Free at last.
He conforms me into the image of His Son not me! I am nothing, as many will willingly agree I'm sure! , and I only have God to thank for the condition I am in now and the same goes for all mankind. He is Sovereign.

He hid the tree of life from us. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
Then He double locked the tree of life from us, Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

He tells us the situation right at the beginning! God is my salvation.

john.