A Basic Question to all Calvinists

Hello russell.

I disagree with this. God is Sovereign. Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
I am a sinner from conception my condition was nothing to do with me but my Creator made me as I am.

john.

 

(Excuse me KJ.) so that you do not do what you want. Gal 5:17. How can we fight that which we don't do? How do we claim to do good when the Holy Spirit boasts that it is Him? so that you do not do what you want. (Romans 7)
Great excuse. Believe it when I say I am not under law and in full knowledge of my salvation. I am free. Jesus Christ died for my sins. Praise His Name. Free at last.
He conforms me into the image of His Son not me! I am nothing, as many will willingly agree I'm sure! , and I only have God to thank for the condition I am in now and the same goes for all mankind. He is Sovereign.

john...what do you mean "what we don't do"? If you aren't struggling with sin in your life then you aren't a Christian. this life is a battle with sin until it is over. Consult Paul on that k?

As for "God beginning a good work in you"...that is sanctification. Not salvation. After all...if salvation is the good work that God began He cannot hold man responsible when they don't get saved. It takes God to begin the work after all.

I am going to say what I believe right here and now so that people will not misunderstand me or lay false accusations against me in the future. God's grace reaches to all mankind. Men either reject that grace and go to hell or they accept it and become saved. Simple as that.

 

"Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Notice the word "all".

 

"Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
Just means Jews and Gentiles man! What do you think this verse says please?

john.

 

Hello KJ.

Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
That's how He made us.

RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Have you got a gottle of geer? I don't hear Calvinists talking like that!

I've never heard a Calvinist say a thing like that. Might be you judge Calvinism by watching Arminians! That's one of the main planks man don't try wobbling it.
John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

They did not believe in Him that is why He told them they did not believe in Him because God had not enabled them. John 6:61-65.

God is Sovereign.

john.

 

LOL I don't think it says that, for sure. I think it means all men. That is the reason it says "so that He MAY have mercy on them all".

I really can't believe that the "all men" means exactly what it says but "mercy on them all" means Jews and Gentiles and not exactly what it says. You have to read that into the passage.

 

Romans 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
That's how He made us.

That verse has nothing to do with what I said. I am a Christian so I don't know why you are saying I am hostile to God. So...right there you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You believe that man doesn't come because they don't want to at the same time believing that God doesn't want to let them. But you will also say that anyone can come, they just don't want to. Makes no sense.

RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Exactly. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You believe man is responsible for their sins and could come to Christ if only they wanted to...at the same time believing that they can't...and they won't.

Have you got a gottle of geer? I don't hear Calvinists talking like that! You don't hear many Calvinists talking then eh?

Again, you don't hear too many Calvinists eh? I was a Calvinist myself...I know all the lines...all the arguments...and all the tactics.

I've never heard a Calvinist say a thing like that. Might be you judge Calvinism by watching Arminians! See what I said above. I was a Calvinist...they say it.

That's one of the main planks man don't try wobbling it.
John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
that doesn't negate my belief. I believe that God draws ALL men...that verse supports my belief 100%
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing.

They did not believe in Him that is why He told them they did not believe in Him because God had not enabled them. John 6:61-65.

You want to know why that is? Because if they believed in Him at the time...nobody would have CRUCIFIED Him! Any of those men could have believed in Him after the crucifixion.

God is Sovereign.

Amen. I believe Arminians have a totally sovereign God. He doesn't have to force people; He is sovereign enough to get what He wants through giving them free will. God is sovereign.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Hello KJ.

What we don't do? Do you mean, ...so that you do not do what you want. Gal 5:17.?
We don't do the fallen nature does or the Holy Spirit does and welcome to puppet land.

Where's the struggle? I keep my eyes on Him while He conforms me. That's the struggle.
Jesus forgave me all my sins and I believe that. That is my salvation and my very great reward. You are living by the letter I am not under law. Everything is permissable to me and I answer only to my conscience. If that bothers me but it don't bother me because I stop whatever has given me the bad conscience and if I can't I ask for help and wait on help not do it myself. He is in control of me. Everything is permissable to me. I am free in Christ He died for my sins.

Why fight the sin you have you will just be changing it for another? Selfrighteousness if we succeed over a sin.

I would have thought santification began at rebirth. Those that have had a bath are clean John 13:10. Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

As a man I agree 100% with you. In fact I shall dare ask the question shall I?
"Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Romans 9:19.

Do you know what He had the termerity to say to me? The nerve!

Who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Romans 9:20-21.

You go and ask!

It is by grace that I am saved how can I reject that? How can I reject what I became. How does a child reject birth?
But I thought you believed in free will KJ. How comes you go to Hell if you refuse, don't sound a free choice to me? Sounds more like coercion is being used.

john.

 

that's too confusing KJ try to distinquish between your words and mine in the future please.

john.

 

john...sorry I don't know how that happened. But hey...it's not impossible to read. You know what you have said so you should know what I have said. I will give you the benefit of the doubt though.

Why fight the sin? Obviously you haven't read Paul.

No...we are not puppets. To say "hell if we reject the gospel" is not coercion and if it were...hey...God set the standard. You like to use that passage that says "who are you to talk back to God?"...well I could just use it right back at ya. If it is God's standard that you have to accept Christ or you go to hell...who are you to talk back to God. If that don't sound like a free choice to you then there is nothing left to discuss I guess.

But please don't come on here and tell me that we are all puppets because that is not the case. Would God love a few "puppets", hate MOST of those "puppets" and send His Son to die on a cross for a few "puppets"? I didn't think so.

It is not "by grace you are saved"...it is "by grace THROUGH faith". God gives ALL mankind enough faith to believe and many reject Him. Isn't that the point of the parable? God gives "a measure of faith"? Anyway...thanks for the discussion. If you stay free of personal attacks then so will I and maybe some learning will happen here.

 

yea i know what i said and i know what you said but i am of grace and i hate work

john.

 

LOL no problem. I really don't know how that mixup all happened. Next time I think I'll copy and paste small parts.

Oh I forgot. I'm not under the law. I just believe the passages that say we have to fight against sin, our old nature, the world and the devil. If we say we have no sin the truth is not in us. Since we have sin, we have to fight against it. That is the process of sanctification. God expects effort from us.

 

Hello KJ.

Therein lays selfrighteousness.

Process 1 a : a progressive forward movement from one point to another on the way to completion :

Is that what you mean by process and is that what you mean to accomplish? You mean to accomplish the completion of your santification by yourself?

That's the Arminian in you and that is what the fight is. The good fight.

You sound like Superman and the Hulk all in one! I'll give you a shout if I get any trouble from my neighbours! At the moment I have my Big Brother sorting things out.

That's right but Christ died for my sins I am holy, blamless and spotless before the Almighty but I am not innocent. I wear my sin as a crown and enter His presence with confidence and I tell Him about what I do. He had best fix it for me cause I cannot purify myself. I have not the strength to fight my fallen nature let alone the Devil and the world and be married! I am what is know as a non-starter. I saw the competition.

Why? Why should I sin if I don't want to? Why do you sin if you are free. I'm free and sin. I am sin. I am not my problem I am His. He told me He loves me. Love never fails He told me that as well. He says I am loved by Him with an everlasting love and I am living proof of that and what is more I believe in Him. I do not believe in my faith I believe in Him. I am not interested in my faith I'm interested in Him. He loved me and gave His life for me it is personal.

RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Paul speaking from personal experience says he cannot do the good he wants to do but still he is able to do what he hates.

16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

No He does not because He tells us we can't we are to enter His rest!
HEB 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
They fell short, that lot in the wilderness. Why? Because they sought it by works.
Hebrews 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

You must cease all activity to make yourself righteous and you must rest. He makes me lie down in green pastures He restores my soul!
If you hear His voice do not harden your hearts. He calls you into His Sabbath. Rest and recuperation will be yours or For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there."

ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"--
but they would not listen.

ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured. ISA 28:10-13.

john.

 

Do you not understand that sin no longer has dominion over man? Jesus defeated the power of sin by atoning for it! You do not have to sin anymore if you but repent from sinning! Repent means to turn away from, to stop doing it. Man has always had the power to repent, but because sinning is more fun than repenting, we simply do not want to stop sinning. However God tells us that when we believe in his son we can be victorious over sin...if we want to!

Don't feel alone, because we all have our pet sins that we don't want to release!

 

Hello Wes.

The gulf between us. Well done, I have not heard works put so eloquently before.

Son you mean?

RO 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

You are in direct conflict with scripture.

For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there."

ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,

ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"--
but they would not listen.

ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured. ISA 28:10-13.

john.

 

You are trying to inflict some kind of damage on the message from scripture that God has set us free from the bondage of sin.


YOU LOSE! The message wins!