A better English Bible.

[37818]

Now you are just being silly. If none had "During supper", "The evening meal was underway" etc you would not be in disagreement with the Holy Spirit and context would you.

You can say it all you want but context does not support your view. The scribes made an error, just admit it or say the Holy Spirit is wrong. Those are your only two options. If .5% have "The evening meal was underway" then I will stick with God.

The common codex reading of John's gospel remains the supper "being ended." So the 99.5% of manuscripts of John having γενομενου in John 13:2.

 

[Silverhair]

The common codex reading of John's gospel remains the supper "being ended." So the 99.5% of manuscripts of John having γενομενου in John 13:2.

And the Holy Spirit shows it is wrong in that understanding via context. If you want your version to stand then rewrite the rest of John 13 so the context agrees.

Mat 26:19 The disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
Mat 26:21 As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."

Mar 14:16 The disciples went out and came to the city, and found it just as He had told them; and they prepared the Passover.
Mar 14:17 When it was evening He *came with the twelve.
Mar 14:18 As they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me—one who is eating with Me."

 

[37818]

And the Holy Spirit shows it is wrong in that understanding via context.

On the contrary. The institution of what we call the Lord's Supper was after they were eating. Per Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Matthew 26:26-29.
Mark 14:22-25.
Luke 22:19-21.
". . . But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table."
And I have understood this to be before the events following John 13:2.

 

[Silverhair]

On the contrary. The institution of what we call the Lord's Supper was after they were eating. Per Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Matthew 26:26-29.
Mark 14:22-25.
Luke 22:19-21.
". . . But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table."

@37818 The context does not support your view but you have chosen to ignore that context which is your right, but I will trust what the context shows.

You continue to trust what man has said as opposed too what the Holy Spirit shows you via the context. You feel you are right I disagree. There is not reason to continue this discussion.

Have a good day.

 

[37818]

@37818 The context does not support your view but you have chosen to ignore that context which is your right, but I will trust what the context shows.

You continue to trust what man has said as opposed too what the Holy Spirit shows you via the context. You feel you are right I disagree. There is not reason to continue this discussion.

Have a good day.

Your argument fails to explain all the many codex manuscripts of John which have γενομενου at 13:2.

 

[kyredneck]

Deacon has me on 'ignore'

I've considered it a couple times.

if you're that backslidden, have at it, I guess

Ever wonder WHY Alan?

 

[Silverhair]

Your argument fails to explain all the many codex manuscripts of John which have γενομενου at 13:2.

And your argument fails to explain the context inspired by the Holy Spirit. You want to trust man I will trust God.

 

[37818]

And your argument fails to explain the context inspired by the Holy Spirit. You want to trust man I will trust God.

Romans 2:1, Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

You offered zero explanation for all Byzantine codex of John in John 13:2 solely having γενομενου for it's text.

 

[Silverhair]

Romans 2:1, Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

You offered zero explanation for all Byzantine codex of John in John 13:2 solely having γενομενου for it's text.

I do not have to explain why the Byzantine text have that text reading. You do.

You are missing my point 37. I do not care if all the Byzantine texts have that reading. The translation does not fit the Holy Spirit inspired text. So as far as I am concerned it is wrong. You are trusting in man not God.

You are ignoring context because it does not fit your narrative.

Mat 26:19 The disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
Mat 26:21 As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."

Matthew was also there and you even ignore what he says.

 

[37818]

The translation does not fit the Holy Spirit inspired text.

You are wrong on this. The Holy Spirit has always known the Byzantine codex of John at 13:2 would all have the reading γενομενου meaning was ended.

 

[Silverhair]

You are wrong on this. The Holy Spirit has always known the Byzantine codex of John at 13:2 would all have the reading γενομενου meaning was ended.

That is one of the most illogical comments I have sen on BB.

By your logic the Holy Spirit does not understand context. I continue to find it amazing that you will support what some men have done and call into question what the Holy Spirit says. This may come as a surprise to you but the Holy Spirit did not inspire the Byzantine text.

 

[37818]

That is one of the most illogical comments I have sen on BB.

Saying that doesn't make it so. Setting the statement against what would be the correct statement to show how the statement is not true.

By your logic the Holy Spirit does not understand context.

No.
It is a fact all the Byzantine codex of John at John 13:2 have the same reading γενομενου meaning was ended.

@Silverhair does not believe the Holy Spirit could have always known that?

I continue to find it amazing that you will support what some men have done and call into question what the Holy Spirit says. This may come as a surprise to you but the Holy Spirit did not inspire the Byzantine text.

The text of John's original autograph was given by the Holy Spirit.
The argument is over, John 13:2, 99.5% of codex' being γενομενου versus 00.3% of codex' being γινομενου.

I am persuaded γενομενου is the original reading.

So it is my understand in John 13:4, Jesus had gotten up from the supper that had been ended per John 13:2.

 

[Silverhair]

Saying that doesn't make it so. Setting the statement against what would be the correct statement to show how the statement is not true.
No.
It is a fact all the Byzantine codex of John at John 13:2 have the same reading γενομενου meaning was ended.

@Silverhair does not believe the Holy Spirit could have always known that?

The text of John's original autograph was given by the Holy Spirit.
The argument is over, John 13:2, 99.5% of codex' being γενομενου versus 00.3% of codex' being γινομενου.

I am persuaded γενομενου is the original reading.

So it is my understand in John 13:4, when Jesus got up from the supper that had been ended per John 13:2.

@37818 why do you have such a hard time understanding what I have said?

Again, You are missing my point 37. I do not care if all the Byzantine texts have that reading. The translation does not fit the Holy Spirit inspired text. So as far as I am concerned it is wrong. You are trusting in man not God.

You are ignoring context because it does not fit your narrative.

Mat 26:19 The disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
Mat 26:21 As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."

Matthew was also there and you even ignore what he says.

If you want to trust what man has said then go for it, I will trust what the Holy Spirit inspired. The context does not support your view end of discussion. If you wish to continue this fruitless discussion then it will have to be with someone else.

Have a good day.

 

[Deacon]

A recent translation popped up during my studies, the Evangelical Heritage Version, put out by the Lutherans. On a whim I looked up John 13:2.
The translation works with either form of the verb.
I like it the best of all!

“By the time the supper took place, the Devil had already put the idea into the heart of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, to betray Jesus.” EHV
​

Rob

 

[37818]

.

Mat 26:19 The disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
Mat 26:21 As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."

Jesus' institution of His remembrance would be at the end of the supper.
Matthew 26:26-29, And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Judas would still be at the table, Luke 22:21.
And the foot washing would follow, John 13:3-12.
John 13:2, comment precedes the foot washing.

 

[Deacon]

.
And the foot washing would follow, John 13:3-12.
John 13:2, comment precedes the foot washing.

Do you find it strange that the foot washing would occur after a meal?
Could it be that John might have emphasized something other than a linear arrangement of events?

As travelers walked, their feet would be soiled from the dust and dung that had accumulated on the pathways.
Upon arriving, their feet would be washed by a servant as a hospitality provided by the master of the house.
A meal would happen afterwards, when the company was clean.

Washing hands after the meal is a bit like a surgeon scrubbing his hands after the surgery.

Rob

 

[37818]

Do you find it strange that the foot washing would occur after a meal?

That foot washing placement and teaching gives reason to ponder.
Note the original Passover, Exodus 12:11, . . . thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: . . .

Could it be that John might have emphasized something other than a linear arrangement of events?

Since all the word of God is didactic, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, it can be a possibility. But I do not think it to be the case here.
None of the proponents of for the γινομενου reading offer an explanation for the dominant codex reading of γενομενου being 99.5% of all manuscripts.

 

[JD731]

@37818 why do you have such a hard time understanding what I have said?

Again, You are missing my point 37. I do not care if all the Byzantine texts have that reading. The translation does not fit the Holy Spirit inspired text. So as far as I am concerned it is wrong. You are trusting in man not God.

You are ignoring context because it does not fit your narrative.

Mat 26:19 The disciples did as Jesus had directed them; and they prepared the Passover.
Mat 26:20 Now when evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.
Mat 26:21 As they were eating, He said, "Truly I say to you that one of you will betray Me."

Matthew was also there and you even ignore what he says.

If you want to trust what man has said then go for it, I will trust what the Holy Spirit inspired. The context does not support your view end of discussion. If you wish to continue this fruitless discussion then it will have to be with someone else.

Have a good day.

.

Jesus' institution of His remembrance would be at the end of the supper.
Matthew 26:26-29, And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Judas would still be at the table, Luke 22:21.
And the foot washing would follow, John 13:3-12.
John 13:2, comment precedes the foot washing.

LOL

Well, so much for all the new Bibles making things easier to understand and bringing us together!!!! So much for studying the Greek texts!

Has anyone ever noticed that the Greek scholars and the man with several English Bible translations rarely agrees on anything?

 

[Conan]

LOL

Well, so much for all the new Bibles making things easier to understand and bringing us together!!!! So much for studying the Greek texts!

Has anyone ever noticed that the Greek scholars and the man with several English Bible translations rarely agrees on anything?

Actually Greek Scholars and people with several English Bible Translations agree overwhelmingly on most things. You only hear about the things they disagree on.

 

[37818]

@JD731
There are two issues with Bible translations.
Known textual issues.
And translation phrase and word choices.

Differences between new Bibles can be an issue.

We should discuss these.